Did you see this?

[boston bean]

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12593891

Just FYI. I served on a jury where the post and poster were anti choice. Voted to hide, but a jury left it alone.

I assume the linked to ATA thread was about the same.

Interesting and discouraging to say the least.

[Niceguy1]

1. isn't part of choice

Being able to choose what a person belives in?

[boston bean]

2. Not when one denies choice to others. That is the definition of anti choice.

[Niceguy1]

3. how can a progressive

Who always votes democratic but doesn't believe in abortion restrict a persons right to choose? I think I read the orginal thread you mentioned. She was sincere and honest, and other than that seems to be a solid progressive.

[boston bean]

4. It is an anti choice position she was supporting.

Not just her choice to not have an abortion. She doesn't believe in choice except for her own choice to not have one and no other woman should either. As far as I know that is not a a progressive stance. The view was of the most extreme right wing anti choice freaks.

It's not ok to post anti choice right wing bullshit here, IMHO. Found it interesting admins feel it's ok and that juries do too. Attacks on women's choice don't reach a level of concern here I guess..

[Niceguy1]

5. I belive she said she votes democratic

So in her case her personal beliefs do not effect anyones right to choose and voiceing them doesn't either. Thats probably why it was left alone.

[seabeyond]

8. post 7. you are wrong. again. and niceguy, every one of your posts have NOT supported

women. so i suggest when coming into this forum you align yourself with the purpose of the group or you ignore. we have to put up with you passive aggressive bullshit thru out the site, but not here

[Amaril]

13. You are obviously...........

.....confusing anti-choice with anti-abortion. They are not the same thing.

People of an anti-choice mindset -- even those who vote dem -- do not respect a woman's right to full and sole autonomy over her body / life. They believe that women should NOT have the right to chose, and should be forced to carry a pregnancy to term against their will.

[JustAnotherGen]

6. I can't say

I didn't read the original thread - but if I what you have written is true (ie no choice for others either) then that is disheartening.

[seabeyond]

7. yes they can hold their position and be democrats. and yes, du can say.... we do not hold that

line. so this particular subject you support or you stay quiet and speak out on issue that are in line with the democratic party. same with sexism. yes, we have sexists on du. and yes, du can say that is not allowed. keep them to yourself if you want to participate. yes, we have homophobic. and the same, follow the rule or do not use the board. as we readily and completely do not allow racism, though we have racists.

[redqueen]

9. Some people just think women aren't entitled to as much of a right to bodily autonomy as a corpse is

but as long as they're polite when they say women have less of a right to bodily autonomy than corpses get, well that's ok!

And if you think denying women human rights is kind of a big deal, well, fuck you! That's just too fucking bad!

for the alert stalkers

[ismnotwasm]

10. I'm sorry, this might be a deal breaker for me

Last edited Fri Nov 1, 2013, 11:35 AM - Edit history (1)

I won't involve myself in any organization that supports a anti-choice POV. I'll have to think about it.

Edit: changed my mind; and fuck all anti-choice pieces of shit. This site itself hasn't proved to be anti-choice for the largest part, and they tend to weed themselves out. A very disappointing response by Skinner, but I don't own the site. I can live with it--I think-- as long as 99% of DU supports choice. Anti-choice is the purview of Republicans, and anti-choice Democrats tend to have other conservative views; another thing that makes Skinner's answer so surprising. If I see any kind of trend of supporting an anti-choice POV's, I'll revisit the issue.

What I want to see is NO tolerance for those woman murderers. That is also what I expected to see. I'm just sick about this.

[redqueen]

12. Ask me if I'm surprised.

Go on, ask me.

By the jury results OR Skinner's response.

As MadrasT said, this kind of bullshit is why I no longer have a star.

[ismnotwasm]

15. Yeah

I keep going back and forth, on one hand, I've been around for ten years and DU is a habit, on the other--with the new ruling in Texas, all the assaults on women's rights, I just don't need this shit. Sexist morans I understand. Because they're everywhere, not just here, but this? I don't understand.

This isn't a place that supports my own activism, which I thought ideologically at least, would be supported--verbally--for the most part.

Hedging on choice for women is disgusting and morally wrong.

[Whisp]

76. women's rights seem to be last on the list here.

can you imagine if there was a anti-black, anti-gay, or anti semetic comment of that sort?

yeh, I think we all know what the result would be whether the jury upheld the post to stand or not.

Just some interesting reading to see why women here are still on the outside looking in:
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/Skinner/82
Yeh, it's old. but so are some attitudes.

[seabeyond]

84. yup. on my hide, i was told i was supposed to talk to skinner about schoolgirls soiled panties

being sold in vending machines to grown men. thinking that is not a favorite conversation of skinners. and why am i being directed to only talk about that issue with skinner. thinking of his giggle in a thread about someone in milf org dying. but the whole thread being about fucking moms.

[Squinch]

16. That was a ridiculous response by Skinner. And pitbullgirl's question was exactly on

target: so if a racist or homophobe is polite about their racism and homophobia, and only brings up their racism or homophobia infrequently, we're ok with it? The hell we are.

This is saying that someone has the right to the opinion that I should not be allowed to decide what happens to my body. As long as they aren't rude.

That's completely unacceptable.

[ismnotwasm]

19. It really, really is

Last edited Fri Nov 1, 2013, 07:00 PM - Edit history (1)

And I really am not understanding this. I feel like maybe asking for a yes or no clarification " does DemocraticUnderground support any anti-choice POV?"

I don't need philosophy, just a yes or no. But, then again he already answered that in his response, and that answer would be "yes", so why bother?

[Squinch]

20. Maybe we should give him the benefit of the doubt and ask him if he was kidnapped

and some marauders took over his keyboard...


...again...

[ismnotwasm]

21. Heh!

Of all the excuses I've seen here, that's my favorite. I'm in slightly--just slightly better spirits, just served on a jury that voted to hide this excrement

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service

At Fri Nov 1, 2013, 03:14 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Va Gina
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3959007

REASON FOR ALERT:

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS:

Referring to a female (even a RW one) as "Va Gina" is offensive and sexist. I realize it's a play on her name, but the joke about calling her a dick makes the intended meaning clear. Can we please hide this?

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Nov 1, 2013, 03:19 PM, and the Jury voted 6-0 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT and said: MIRT!!! This is a troll, and a bully, and we should have PPRed sooner. Take it out!
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT and said: FFS.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT and said: No explanation given

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[Squinch]

22. And that one was PPR'd. But I am still reeling about the fact that the position here is that,

as long as someone is polite, they can say they don't think I have the right to decide what happens to my body.

Reading that response felt like running headlong into a brick wall. I'm surprised how disturbed I am by it.

[ismnotwasm]

24. Me too

I think it's the shock of the owner of a website I've been involved with for so Long even saying something like that

[Squinch]

27. And not understanding that it's just as bad as saying racists are OK, as long as they're polite.

Or a homophobe can be fine as long as he calls himself a Democrat.

It's so sad to become aware that there is such a blind spot with the powers that be here.

[ismnotwasm]

28. I kind of feel like taking a shower

For real.

[Squinch]

29. Yeah. The disappointment is so large, it is almost a nauseous feeling.

Not sure what I will do with this.

[boston bean]

30. I too am extremely disturbed. I don't want to associate with a group or site that

Leaves room for any anti choice point of view. I am having a very difficult time with this. This is a biggie!

[Squinch]

34. It is a biggie because it is so fundamental, and it is clear that there is simply no understanding

of the fact that it IS fundamental. That is really a surprise to me.

I love coming to DU, but I don't want to condone this viewpoint.

[boston bean]

36. I am really torn. I am giving this some real thought.

I would hope skinner will reconsider his point of view on this. This is a line that should not be crossed. I don't want to have to read anti choice crap or debate anti choicers here. What the holy hell? I don't know if in good conscience I can continue posting here. This might be a watershed moment for me. I've got some soul searching to do. I've been here for quite a long time. I've always known that anti abortion posters could discuss their personal choice, but not spout anti choice bullshit. I thought one had to support choice. There is no line obviously as long as they politely state that women can't or shouldn't control their own bodies!

[ismnotwasm]

41. Exactly

However, another part of me thinks it would please too many misogynistic MRA nut jobs that pass for "reasonable" members here if feminists left DU, especially HoF ones, so I think I'll see how it plays out.

[boston bean]

44. There is that. And the fact the overwhelming majority support choice.

However, to see that statement from admins really concerns me that they are willing to entertain this debate on any level.

[Squinch]

46. Yeah, but the opinions of MRA types don't signify to me. I need to chew on this.

[Squinch]

45. I feel the same.

I am perfectly willing to have a discussion with someone who would not choose an abortion for themselves, as long as they don't see that as a license to make decisions about my body and my life, or anyone else's.

[ismnotwasm]

48. I have a daughter who is like that and she expresses it just that way

Abortion is not a choice for her, but it's not her business for those whose choice it is. Of course it made me a a Grandmother at 38, but that's another story

[Squinch]

49. Well...congratulations on the grandchild!

I hope all are doing well.

[ismnotwasm]

50. Oh, THAT one was 14 years ago

She's got two more now and my other daughter has another two, so now I'm 53 with 5 grand kids. People seemed shocked...

[Squinch]

51. Wow! THat's actually pretty cool. It's highly possible that you could meet your great, great

grandchildren.

[ismnotwasm]

52. I know

I'll get to be a crone of wisdom and a warm lap for another generation or so if I'm very lucky. And they all get "grandma is a feminist"

[MadrasT]

53. In what world is it OK

to allow someone to continue posting here when they have expressed the opinion that women should be forced to be incubators AGAINST THEIR WILL?

That is batshit crazy handmaid tale talk.

There is no "polite" way to express that opinion.

I fully support any woman's right to say that abortion is not an option FOR HERSELF. That is what "pro choice" FUCKING MEANS.

But anti abortion, period?

What the everloving fuck?

NOT OKAY.

[NuclearDem]

23. I had a similar experience.

EOTE really crossed the line in Pab's terrible thread a while back and got a 6-0 hide as well.

It's really something he should have been outright banned for, but at least it was not allowed to stand.

[ismnotwasm]

25. That one.

I agree without reservation.

[seabeyond]

26. i liked

your picture in lounge. cool dude.

[BainsBane]

31. Oh I definitely thought so

That post was outrageous.

[boston bean]

32. Can someone send me a link if they have it handy. Nt

[boston bean]

33. Thank you for the link. OMFG!

And that poster still walks amongst us on DU? Holy fuckin hell!

[BainsBane]

35. Imagine if that had been

against any other group?

[boston bean]

37. No I can't imagine they would have lasted more than a day until admin got back on duty.

[BainsBane]

39. Try an hour

[BainsBane]

40. Yes

Someone will probably alert on that. and you'll get a hide ismnotwasm. I'd self delete.

[ismnotwasm]

42. Why would it get a hide?

Because it was hidden in the first place?

[ismnotwasm]

47. Ok

I've had only one hide at DU and that was for linking to one of my favorite IBTP rants. As it was the third time I had linked to it, but the first time under the jury system. It was pretty weird.

And locking sea's thread WAS bogus and even weirder.

[MadrasT]

11. This is a specific example of why I don't have a star anymore.

On DU, there is no other group of people BESIDES WOMEN about whom you could spout off a right-wing, anti-progressive, pro-slavery "opinion" and have it be A-OK.

It is appalling.

[Sheldon Cooper]

14. Exactly.

And for the love of god I don't understand how they can be so oblivious. NO ONE would be allowed to post racist or anti-gay shit here and get away with it, but if women are involved, well, no problem.

This website will never get a dime from me, and that is why.

[Squinch]

17. Yes. Unless I see something that rescinds that point of view, my star will not be renewed.

And unless something is said that rescinds that point of view, this site should rethink it's self-opinion that it is actually progressive.

[Sheldon Cooper]

18. Ha! This place is not progressive in the least.

It's a blue dog democrat site if ever there was one. And that's fine, but it's definitely not a leading liberal website.

[seabeyond]

54. look people, we had a thread of mostly men say a woman who is 9 months preg should be denied a glass

of wine. regardless of what studies say. regardless of what doctors say. these men had the audacity to state that it did not matter, that for them, they would deny that pregnant woman a glass of wine.

misogyn/sexism is not only in one party.

[redqueen]

70. That really should be a huge wake up call to anyone who thinks that misogyny is a right-wing thing.

We also have men here saying that pregnancy shouldn't be covered by insurance, and that men should be able to impregnate women and walk away with no financial obligation, because choice.

This backlash is only going to get worse.

[seabeyond]

71. exactly redqueen. they do fool so many, because those people need things to stay the same, but....

it is very very clear what they are saying when they argue these points. they cannot have it both ways.

just like my hides.

they can talk about soiled school girl undies being sold in vending machines to grow men.

they can lecture us that we are not to feel an ick value or shame these men and not value judge.

but, one cannot call it out in the crudeness it is cause it is not considered "civil". it is offensive.

the soiled schoolgirl underwear sold in vending machines to grown men is something to giggle about.

this is telling. i have not let this one go. for me, it is a huge red flag.

[redqueen]

73. That one surprises me less than the anti-abortion shit allowed to stay here.

At least we had made a little headway with respect to abortion, once upon a time.

With porn and men's entitlement to women (and girls, too, obviously) we have never made one step in the progressive direction.

Oops I take that back... There are now a few states finally acting to curb revenge porn.

We need MacKinnon's and Dworkin's law re: porn enacted. Allow any woman harmed by porn to sue for damages. If pornsick people are so damned sure that no one is ever harmed by porn they should have absolutely no problem with it. Only problem is, pornographers know the truth, they have no cognitive dissonance to soothe with delusion... and they will fight that law with everything they have.

[gollygee]

79. +1

Women were arguing that too. There's a real belief in this country and in both parties that women don't have full ownership of our bodies.

[Warren DeMontague]

55. For what it's worth, I agree with you guys on this.

I think openly opposing reproductive freedom should be a red line for this site. Much as it is, I believe, now a line with opposing LGBT marriage equality.

Admin made a conscious and public decision, as I understand it, a year or two ago to say, yes, opposing marriage equality is in and of itself grounds for a PPR. I feel- actually, I think this discussion has come up before, I know it came up in meta- I feel that being anti-choice; namely stating support for passing laws outlawing abortion- ought to be an area where admin likewise says "sorry, not here".

Of course, that's not the same thing as someone saying they are personally opposed to abortion- but being anti-choice, wanting to outlaw it- that ought to be against the rules here. Period. No question.

That's my 2 cents. I'm happy to say so in ATA as well.

[ismnotwasm]

65. Thank you

That's is much appreciated

[KitSileya]

56. Very discouraging.

It's such a fundamental tenet of progressive and liberal views, but I guess just for women? Male progressive, like Skinner, are ok with it, but then, when it comes to reproductive rights, they're like the chicken and we're the pig who decided to make breakfast of bacon and eggs. Sometimes I fantasize how they'd feel if they were put into the pig position, as it were, and all people without uteri had to register so that they could be called up to donate a kidney or a piece of their liver if someone needed it. 'You have a weak heart? Sorry, sir, you have to donate that kidney anyway.'

[Squinch]

62. The forced organ donation even in the face of other health problems is an apt analogy.

How can that be considered an ethical stance, unless there is a fundamental belief that women's primary purpose is breeding, and the choices of their breeding belong to someone other than themselves?

There were comments in the thread also about religious progressives who are anti-abortion due to their beliefs. I have to say I have never been in a social group where more women availed themselves of their right to an abortion than my social group in the religious college I attended.

[ismnotwasm]

67. This almost a litmus test for separation of church and state

Not to mention basic science. (my own philosophy isn't as concrete, I believe a pregnancy is what a individual woman says it is, a baby, a fetus, a parasite--she has the moral authority over her own body and choices)

When religion can dictate any policy or law, it violates the basic tenants of a working democracy. I just was looking up the medical definition of pregnancy, which I always understood to be upon implantation. The internet is full of nonsense and misinformation. Now I'm kind of stunned from a simple web search. I knew things were bad, but it's even worse that I thought.

This is yet another reason to take a hard-line stance against anti-abortion, forced-birth opinions

[A-Schwarzenegger]

57. Could somebody link to the anti-choice post

this is about, please. Sorry if I missed it here or in ATA. Thanks.

[boston bean]

58. I'm not going to post a direct link, but you can read through thread.

Stating dems will lose elections if they don't change their stance on abortion, and much much more!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=3923675

[Squinch]

59. Reading it again, it just gets worse.

Can you imagine if a poster said, "I am opposed to gay marriage and we have to work to end that."

But it's OK to say, "I think we need to work towards ending abortion." Which, of course equals, "we need to work towards ending women's self-determination, women's economic stability, women's ability to provide for their children."

It's a line I just won't cross in the name of the big tent. The rights of half the population to their own bodies has to be a priority for the big tent.

[boston bean]

60. Overtly rude is exactly what it is. It's offensive. No matter how nice someone says it.

People can say, many rude offensive things in a way that doesn't come off as rude, but the meaning of it is rude and offensive, at least to me. The ideas, thought, position of anti choice is rude, it's offensive. Why the exception when it comes to a woman's autonomy over her own body?

[ismnotwasm]

63. Exactly

There is no room for debate from a liberal standpoint, in fact there is no room for debate from a human rights standpoint. I hope Skinner reconsiders his, what, policy?

I re-read his response. The only way it makes sense to me is if he meant someone could be anti-abortion, but not anti-choice


Anyone who is anti-choice does not belong here, or if they do, I certainly don't.

[MadrasT]

68. I can't see how someone who is anti-abortion (for everybody, not just for herself)

is not also automatically anti-choice.

To try to make those be different positions seems like splitting hairs.

I just do not see how such thing a thing as "anti-abortion yet pro-choice" can even be a viable position.

Bottom line boils down to, you can do all the education and pregnancy prevention in the world and some people will still get pregnant who don't want to be pregnant. What "choice" is left to them if abortion is not an option? And don't anybody give me the "adoption" line. Childbirth KILLS some women. Some women do not want to give birth, under any circumstance, ever.

[ismnotwasm]

69. I mean as a personal decision

Not a political, or legal one. Poorly worded--sorry. In other words, if a woman said "abortion is not an option for me" I can support that. If she says "I believe abortion is murder" I don't even want to have-or see--that conversation on a liberal board.


And as far a splitting hairs, the only reasonable discussion about abortion should be between a woman and her medical provider. Trimesters, when "life" begins--all that is bullshit that is not my business if I'm not the one pregnant.

And I agree completely, what part of "every pregnancy risks a woman's life" do people not understand?

[boston bean]

74. I think there is a distinction between anti choice

And anti abortion for ones self.

One can be totally pro choice but for themselves would not have one. That is how I understand choice and that is why anti choice is offensive and I leave room for the distinction.. But one who is anti choice leaves only one choice, no one can have one, and that in itself is not choice.

[A-Schwarzenegger]

64. "I can't believe this shit is allowed here."

To quote one succinct response to the poster in question.
Skinner, if you're reading this, you're wrong, amigo.

[ismnotwasm]

66. +1000

[ismnotwasm]

61. Jesus

At least she had her ass handed to her.

Not that she thought so. Reading through that thread, I'm even more disturbed. Why this person is still here is amazing.

[redqueen]

72. And once again I am stunned

One DUer took 9 years to come around on gay marriage (vs civil unions) but they did. And in that time, DU has become a place where stating that one is against gay marriage is a bannable offense.

Meanwhile, 40 years after we were given a little bit of choice in the matter of WHAT HAPPENS TO OUR OWN FUCKING BODIES, we have to read shit like that and hear its A-OK.

We get to hear hemming and hawwing while corpses get more rights to bodily autonomy than we do.

Seething with hatred at the moment.

[Squinch]

75. I think we should all rec this post so that it gets wider viewing.

[historylovr]

77. That was some thread.

And it's okay to post forced birth bs here if it's polite and infrequent. Somehow I don't think accusing women who have abortions of being murderers is very polite. Sheesh.

[Whisp]

78. we will not be seeing a response from Admin.

Remember Rape Weekend at DU? Or the child porn ad?

There were hundreds of posts asking Admin for help, and we got fuck all. Well, that ad Was finally removed, but in secret. Guess Skinner did it in secret so as not to appear that he takes orders from us little womenz. Lol. gotta laugh.

[Squinch]

82. And now your thread in General Discussion has been locked.

It seems people can expound on their anti-choice views here, and they can weigh whether they think "murder " or "homicide" better describes the civil right to reproductive choice that is part of the Democratic Party platform...

...but you can't express the fact that you find this anti-choice stance unacceptable and ask for others' opinions on the topic.

This just keeps getting worse.

And in that thread, I found myself in a discussion with someone who equated women's reproductive rights with seat belt laws. The ignorance and the dismissal by members of DU of the most fundamental rights of 51% of the population are disgusting. And this dismissal is supported by the administrators.

This is making me sick. DU does not represent me, and is not a site that supports civil rights.

[boston bean]

83. It was a plea for some understanding on the topic. If anything

it goes to show there is very little appetite on DU to truly respect the fundamental right of woman to choose and have control over their own body.

Not just the locking of the thread by hosts, but a good many responses in that thread, and the personal nature of some of the responses, and the total lack of understanding as to what choice is.

Many understand but still the volume of responses that were not supportive show that choice is not fully supported here. I don't know if there will ever be a critical mass on DU where this becomes unacceptable. But with admin condoning it sometimes as long as it's respectful, I think it will be a long time.

It wasn't a whine, it was a call for the community to come together. Guess that's not acceptable if it involves womens rights.

[seabeyond]

86. it wasnt a whine. repeatedly i see meta thread left standing in GD and the argument for it. in a

couple weeks i have seen two threads discussing womens issues and how they are handled on du be locked.

i have a problem with the inconsistency here.

[boston bean]

87. 3 men alerted on it as an sop violation.

Their opinions obviously mean more.

[redqueen]

88. +1

[seabeyond]

85. sorry you got a post hidden chervilant. bad hide. nt