The Tone Argument is sure being flung around here a lot lately.

[redqueen]

I guess the real problem is, feminists just keep getting so angry about feminist issues. It makes people decide they don't want fight to misogyny after all, because those angry feminists were so impolite.

Then someone comes along and hurls the tone argument, trying to silence the angry feminists, saying that anger about feminist issues isn't productive.

Apparently, the most important thing when fighting misogyny isn't addressing actual oppression, it's really more about not hurting the feelings of those who don't see the misogyny to begin with.




The fact that the people using the tone argument have worked so hard to ignore gazillions of thoughtful arguments in order to pick on the people who are fed up with having to explain the same basic things gazillions of times? Well that's not exactly a convincing act. Not by a longshot. Not likely to inspire many to extend any effort toward kindly and gently leading anyone to any knowledge when it's been ignored plenty of times already before the angry uppity feminists get all mean and hostile.



What really stands out to me is the incredible privilege of those who assume that their hurt feelings and irritation should outweigh a discussion of oppression. If they really cared about the issue, they'd focus on the content. They'd understand that it's not about them.

[JTFrog]

1. Yes, yes it is.

http://lucereta.wordpress.com/2011/06/30/tone-argument-as-logical-fallacy/

Generally speaking, the person who is saying, “I would agree with you/support you/support your cause if you were nicer about it” has no intention of ever agreeing or supporting in any way. Admittedly, getting into motive is tricky, and I hate to say, “you know it when you see it,” but this is obviously going to be subject to interpretation. However, this argument often comes down not to, “I agree with you, but I think you could have phrased it better,” but, “I would agree with you if you phrased it better.” The fallacy is not objecting to wording but putting a price on agreement or support.

[redqueen]

3. Yep. One popular tactic here is to otherize the bartering.

Shit like: If you don't shut up about the wage gap, you're gonna drive away democratic voters!

Cause of course I'll still vote for democrats, but, you know, they won't, so STFU about it lady!

[JTFrog]

5. Exactly. n/t

[seabeyond]

6. "has no intention of ever agreeing or supporting in any way." we all know it. it was been repeatedly

proven and they get all hysterical and emotional, upset and angry when called on it.

[seabeyond]

2. it is worse than that. even laughing while posting i am accused of anger and being offended.

when the post i am replying to is so beyond stupid and full of hypocrisy and i am laughing at the obvious... i am told i am offended, angry, the tone.

most of the time there is an accusation of anger is most of the time when there is no anger at all

the purpose of tone is to present the emotional, hysterical, angry woman that is easily dismissed. no more

[redqueen]

9. And they're so *attacked*, sea!

Meanwhile insults are flung from every direction at all us horrible awful people who keep "attacking" DU men (by trying to talk about street harassment).

It truly is a study in how to stifle a discussion. Thankfully the audience isn't so convinced as their cheerleading section seems to believe. Then again, maybe that's just more theater.

[nomorenomore08]

35. Funny how the people who accuse you of being "angry" seem filled with rage themselves

by and large. Projection 101...

[intaglio]

4. Puts on most patronising voice possible

"But women have a job to nurture and support. They mustn't be confrontational because all men have their best interests at heart. Men will change eventually, you just have to be patient and let them sort it out. After all are women warriors or nurses?"

because there is a faint chance someone might take that seriously

[seabeyond]

7. gosh.... you are making me laugh, smile growing....

and i gotta keep it in. so funny. TODAY everyone wants to be funny, lol

[intaglio]

8. I know Sea ...

Men like me have a lot of thinking to do before we can begin to appreciate (not understand, only appreciate) what women go through. The sad part is that if men did appreciate how their simple words and actions can be patronising, prejudicial or abusive they would stop, being a guy does not make you bad.

[seabeyond]

10. i luv my guys. and there are a good 5 men to every one female in my family.

that is my life and has always been for whatever reason. they are soooo good, even in their nonperfection. and they allow the same for me.

this one here intaglio.... good post.

[redqueen]

11. LOL, true.

Our job is to enjoy being admired, and STFU about harassment, apparently!

[ismnotwasm]

18. And that's irritating too

I AM a nurse and what to people think I do wipe brows and take temperatures instead of dealing with blood and vomit and phlegm and shit and piss and wounds and multi organism infections and tubes In Every possible orifice some natural some not etc etc all day?

Not to mention the occasional hands on saving of a life.

And hell my daughter is a combat veteran came back from Afghanistan and decided to be a stay at home mom.
I mean really what the holy fuck?

[intaglio]

29. The "nurses not fighters" trope micturates me off too

Great Grandmother - "unregistered" midwife in 19th C Yorkshire
Both Grandmothers - Nurses
Grandfather - Consultant
Father - General Practitioner
Mother - Nurse
Sister - Nurse

If I was not sympathetic to the travails of nurses I would not have survived

[ismnotwasm]

12. Meh

What I think is there are legitimate hurt feelings, out of ignorance, out of damage, out an inability to express themselves properly, and those I do feel for.

But mostly we have group of the deliberately obtuse, or the disingenuous, or wing nuts or worse those who believe women have equality and who apparently find a DU message board better than a reddit comment section.

Useless folk because unlike feminism, there is no drive, no activism, no political meaning (unless one is a secret republican) they just sit around and complain.

Sometimes I wonder if people realize that feminism is a worldwide movement with people deeply involved in improving the lives of women--not a "who's a real feminist" discussion or what a mans role is in feminism. We're already out there working and changing things. And fighting old battles like reproductive rights.

It's quite funny you know. I really don't think they know.

[redqueen]

13. I was just thinking of those flinging the tone argument.

While I agree there are a few who are legitimately misunderstanding the message, I think the vast majority is actively working to muddy the waters.

Focusing on one crazy OP, addressing it with a lot of effort as if it was meaningful, and then refusing to answer when asked to confirm what the point of the factually challenged response OP even was (re: "matriarchal societies&quot ... it stinks to high heaven. It's really easy to say 'I was talking about this thread' but that wasn't done. So.. yeah. Sometimes it really does seem to be an active effort to muddy the water.

[ismnotwasm]

14. I agree

That one went in the trash early.

Misdirection is one thing, promoting shitty science actually pisses me off. What I observe is a lot of really strange people, some of them women, who have no point at all other than to stir shit.

I'm pretty talented at reading people in real life, on-line--- not so much; I see what I think is a lack of historical background-- not just with women's rights, but racism or anti-semitism, reproductive rights or Gay rights and I suddenly realize I'm actually dealing with sexists, racists and anti-semites, anti-choicers and homophobics-- like for reals. Gets me every time.

You know I don't even talk to people like that, I mean given a choice? It's weird the isms that fly all over the place around here.

[xulamaude]

15. Matriarchal societies!!

Right, like since when?!

Maybe before the patriarchy took over/cared about recording "history"...

[ismnotwasm]

16. Right? I couldn't even

I made one polite comment and got out of there.

Someone took the Iliad too seriously I guess

[seabeyond]

17. but but but beginning of time was this, that is why we are today. has nothing to do with societal

conditioning and all to do with spreading the seed, while being selective, and huntin, lookoing at buttocks that developed into boobs. all the while pink being the womans body cause of berries or body parts.

[BainsBane]

26. I believe some Native American groups

were matriarchal, but I don't recall the details. All that really means in anthropological terms, IIRC, is that lineage is traced through the mother rather than the father. It doesn't characterize the society's power structure.

Edit: I just read the OP you're referencing. It's a strange one.

[NuclearDem]

19. "What I think is there are legitimate hurt feelings"

Pretty much, yeah. It's what's called the progressive groan. Someone who is ordinarily a good progressive (supports single payer, fights economic inequality and overt racism, for example) says something wrong or holds a belief about a certain group and gets called on it, and then responds with "uhhhhh I'm a good progressive, but I can't be perfect!"

That I get, because that's me. I'm definitely guilty of that at times. The thing is though is that when someone in that group corrects that person, it's not personal or an accusation that their ordinarily progressive outlook on the world has been rendered meaningless. It's just that there are some fields that that person doesn't fully understand, a lot of the times through no fault of their own.

That was really the whole point of MrScorpio's "shut the fuck up and listen." Listening to members of those groups (LGBT, trans*, veg*, feminist, etc) makes you a better progressive. Better yet, it helps you find allies who have more in common with your issues and struggles that you might not have known about otherwise, like how feminism works to help men afflicted by stupid patriarchal gender roles.

[ismnotwasm]

20. Well said!

[nomorenomore08]

36. And saying something stupid or ignorant doesn't make you a terrible person. Just human and fallible.

I think some of the folks who get so defensive, feel so "attacked," etc., would do well to remember that. Unless they're just being completely disingenuous, which is also possible.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

38. People are allowed to say stupid and ignorant things all the time. That is their right to remain

stupid and the First Amendment allows them to share their stupidity with others.

However, telling someone they are stupid (for saying stupid things) on DU is call for an alert and possibly a jury hide.

[BainsBane]

21. It has nothing to do with tone

They refuse to be honest: they simply do not want to hear about women's issues period. They thinking being pro-choice is enough and imagine themselves entitled to decide what feminists should focus on. As one visitor to HOF revealed, why should they care "what some woman's view of feminism is."

[redqueen]

23. And hell, many people think restrictions on choice are A-OK.

A new thing that's baffling me is being told we're responsible for causing so much trouble in GD... and then when I say later it all started cause we dared to bring up harassment, I'm accused of being self-centered.

Fuckin unreal.

[BainsBane]

25. It's deliberately dishonest

These are essentially some relics furious that being a white male isn't a guaranteed ticket to the good life it once was. They live in the past century and aren't worth anyone's time, and they know it, which is what pisses them off so much. Anyone who feels compelled to complain about how oppressed they are by a subaltern group is disclosing that they feel themselves to be losers in life. I say ignore them. Let them argue themselves into extinction, which is where they are headed regardless.

Oh, BTW. The cavers are in full agreement with them. That ought to be a clue as to where they sit on the ideological spectrum.

[BainsBane]

32. I never claimed to speak on behalf of anyone but myself, but you are doing so right now

You do by claiming "most women are actually opposed to feminism." You're deluding yourself if you think most women don't want equal rights. You obviously have no idea what feminism is. There is nothing that says feminists can't be feminine. Women maintain different ideas of what feminism means, but one commonality is a belief that women deserve equal rights. Why you feel the need to come here to proclaim "most women oppose feminism," I have no idea. If you truly had the courage of your convictions, you wouldn't have to create a new account to proclaim women oppose feminism. So as much as you would like to believe women would like to remain second class citizens, you have no evidence to support that contention.

The irony of denouncing me for supposedly claiming to speak for all women, which I have never done, while you yourself insist you know what most women think. I would be surprised if you know what a single woman thinks, let alone most.

[boston bean]

33. more than likely he does have an account, it's probably a sock of one who is blocked from posting

here in the group.

[BainsBane]

34. I just sent a PM to someone in MIRT

to request an IP check on that one and some of the other trolls who have created accounts to post here. Seems that the administrators ought to know who is doing this.

[Sheldon Cooper]

22. I saw that from one of the eager female cohorts.

[redqueen]

24. I've seen it from a few people eager to change the subject.

It's embarrassing how difficult it is to discuss these issues here.

[BainsBane]

27. It's just awful to "attack" men

by posting a PSA from India. We should be in the kitchen making cheesecake instead. Know your place, Sheldon Cooper. It's unreasonable to expect American men to aspire to become as advanced or enlightened as those in India. Don't subject them to looking at or reading anything that might make them feel uncomfortable in anyway. Now, I know you're going to say how could we guess an Indian PSA would make American men, supposed "progressives" feel uncomfortable. The point is any mention of women's rights in public is unacceptable. It's a divisive tactic and not a real issue because American women just need to keep their mouths shut and be grateful for what we have.

[JTFrog]

37. All I can say is, it's a bullshit argument.

A really transparent bullshit argument. Otherwise why would anyone bother posting articles from folks like The Rude Pundit on DU?