Shifting The Blame For Sexual Harassment (Or, Damn Those Mysterious Women)

[ismnotwasm]

I thought I'd toss in a little "nuance", since I'm still bemused how that word can actually be used be used in a discussion of rape; let's get our "echo chamber(?)" looking toward sexual harassment

Shifting The Blame For Sexual Harassment (Or, Damn Those Mysterious Women And Their Weird Mystery Feelings)

Women have been trying to explain to men how this fear and discomfort works for a while now in the form of the “Schrodinger’s Rapist” argument. Many men have resisted this explanation relentlessly because they get stuck in WAIT SO YOU’RE TRYING TO SAY THAT YOU JUST ASSUME I MIGHT BE A RAPIST I AM A GOOD PERSON HOW DARE YOU mode. They miss the part that basically explains this: if you send me the signal that you don’t care about my preferences and boundaries, then I’m going to assume that you don’t care about my preferences and boundaries.

There is no great mystery to this. If you make sexual comments to women you don’t know or persistently pester a female coworker to go on a date with you, those women are going to assume that you’re treating them like an object to be fucked and not like a human being, and they’re going to have opinions of you and your behavior in accordance with that.

Sometimes people misinterpret innocent behavior as malicious, but that doesn’t necessarily mean they’re “irrational” or “wrong” in doing so. Suppose that 90% of the time a man I don’t know has asked me what I’m reading, it has turned into him hitting on me or refusing to leave me alone when I was clearly sending “please leave me alone” signals or calling me names when I politely asked to be left alone so I could return to my reading. One day I’m sitting in Central Park reading a book and a guy comes up and asks me what I’m reading. I shoot him an angry look and ignore him. He walks off, confused and embarrassed. He had simply thought the cover looked like the cover of his favorite book about social psychology and wanted to know what I thought of it.

Maybe we could’ve had a great conversation. Maybe we could’ve made friends. But, unfortunately, his behavior just looked too much like the behavior of the men in 90% of these situations, who ruin a quiet and thoughtful moment by using my reading as an excuse to hit on me in public. And if he thinks about this, and reads this blog post or the Schrodinger’s Rapist one, he’ll realize that it makes complete sense that I reacted the way I did, given what I have to deal with 90% of the time. It was no mystery. It was unfortunate and disappointing, but at the same time, entirely rational**.

http://freethoughtblogs.com/brutereason/2014/02/15/shifting-the-blame-for-sexual-harassment-or-damn-those-mysterious-women-and-their-weird-mystery-feelings/

[seabeyond]

1. we must take responsibility for not being raped, and when we do, we are picking on men.

yes. ironic. huge elephant in the room when we had our cutsey rape week. women are to accept responsibility of not being raped, we cannot tell men not to rape. then when women do, and take those precautions, men get angry that women are accusing ALL men of rape.

nifty little set up men create for womne.

[ismnotwasm]

2. Right?

You know I've been taking a sort of break from here. And for some reason--I'm still surprised. "Creepy" is overused. I'm going to have to think of a better word or phrase. Like "group sociopathy" or something

[Squinch]

4. Creepy is accurate. There is push back on it because it is so undesireable. But that's the point.

[ismnotwasm]

5. Yeah I guess you're right.

But "nuance" in rape? That transcended "creepy". I just don't have a word, or at least one I can use here-- perhaps it's my own restraint.

[seabeyond]

6. the thing... i do not think it is sociopath. i think it is the regular joe, being conditioned,

trained, guided to believe this is inherently who we are as gender and all of society reinforces and teaches our men this. also teaches our girls to shut the fuck up, take it, it is their fault, ect... both genders.

i really think we have to get past thinking it is just a smalll subset.

a couple three or more studies asking college men, if you can get away with it, would you rape. i saw one study at 63%, 56%, in the forties and 34% say yes... they would rape if they knew they would get away with it.

that is not a small group

[Squinch]

8. Oh, God. I didn't see that...

[Tuesday Afternoon]

10. sociopathy is on the rise, sea.

pretty sure psychology has already named this era the Generation of the sociopath moved on from the Age of Narcissism.

[seabeyond]

12. too convenient to place over half our men as sociopaths. dont buy it.

and looking at human condition it is much more common sense that we create, not that we have changed. unless sociopaths can be created by the influx of material that literally changes the wring of their mind. then again, that would be us creating it, not nature.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

15. will get back to you on this. also, sea - you must realize that women can be sociopaths, too.

this is not a gender issue. You know that, it is my opinion, I am witnessing a Female Sociopathic Predator on DU3.

[cinnabonbon]

25. I remember that study!

a couple three or more studies asking college men, if you can get away with it, would you rape. i saw one study at 63%, 56%, in the forties and 34% say yes... they would rape if they knew they would get away with it.

This one, I mean. But I can't find a link to it. Do you remember where you saw it?

[Squinch]

7. Oh, please. That whole thread was like an "I don't know the difference between sex and rape"

12-step meeting.

Those people need help, not least because they don't seem to understand that when they say, "I don't know the difference between sex and rape," they are advertising their predatory natures.

I'll give you some words: scummy, feloniously ignorant, pathological.

[ismnotwasm]

9. That's about right

I didn't see the original thread. I'm sick of the fucked up freaks here and I'm tired of feeling like I need a shower when I glance at that shit. There can't be a thousand "regular" posters here and I'm probably over-estimating. The fact that vocal minority are flat out rape apologists is incredible. It's a moderated site or I'd be handing out asses left and right.


I don't need help with words, I NEED restraint with them. Just trust me on this.

[Squinch]

11. Oh, I know you don't need help with words. And I'm glad you spared yourself that thread.

[ismnotwasm]

13. Me too

But it still really, really bothers me these creature just roam this site. One finally got Ts'd a while back after what, 10 years?

[Squinch]

14. I particularly liked Bains recent observation: there are things we commonly see on DU that

are so sexist that they would be absolutely unacceptable in most places where Democrats, and any thinking people, gather.

Her words are better: "There is no public space that would allow either of those threads, no Democratic Party office, no politicians office, no workplace that bothers with following the law in any way. The reason is that it creates a deliberately hostile environment. "

[Tuesday Afternoon]

17. That Post of Baines' ... ON FIRE!! Love that quote. n/t

[Squinch]

18. She was on a roll that day. I kept reading her posts and saying, "I'm SO GLAD someone said that!"

[Tuesday Afternoon]

21. me too, Squinch. me too.

I was over here, all like = PREACH IT< SISTER. RIGHT ON!!!

gawd it was beautiful.

[ismnotwasm]

22. That's exactly my problem

And why I'm taking little breaks from here. I don't want to leave, exactly-- but the whole thing is so very strange. The whole world is moving forward on women's issues-- some slower than others, it should be a time of solidarity with first world nations. Instead-- there's all this whining, or complaining or pseudoscience or lies.

And BB's post just kicked ass, that is a truth.

I can't recommend DU to my friends-- the last time she was WTF?

[Squinch]

23. I don't recommend it to friends either. Too archaic on this issue, often too upsetting.

But, sadly, I do think we are getting a more honest read from some of these guys than we would in the real world. I think that's where the interest lies: what are they really thinking when they can't get in trouble for saying it?

I have a number of very close men friends who have told me over the years, "Don't trust most men." I never believed it. I am finally seeing a little of what they have been talking about.

[ismnotwasm]

24. I'm pretty aggressive

And I've learned to be picky about people anyway-- but "don't trust men" isn't that just the saddest thing? I hope this next generation comes out better. That's why we keep raising hell.

[Squinch]

3. All these guys who have the idea that "creep" is a word applied to unattractive men need to

grow up.

So to the guys who get called "creep" and who conclude, "she's just shallow and wouldn't call me a creep if I were better looking," you're wrong.

It's not your appearance. Stop being a creep.

If you truly already think you are ugly, why would you want to be ugly AND a creep? You have control over the creep part.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

16. it has beem my experience that some of the most physically attractive men have been

the biggest creeps.

As with physically attractive women, these people tend to not develop other aspects and qualities in life until their beauty fades, IF they decide to grow in the human experience.

[Squinch]

19. The entitlement factor is often a lot stronger. And to me, that's the basis of the "creep."

[Tuesday Afternoon]

20. true enough -

having been preyed on by both gender/sexes, I admit to not separating that in My personal Definition of Creep Factor.

As always, YMMV.

[redqueen]

26. LOVE this. And this just cracked me up:

I can see how this is a convenient narrative. A guy who hits on a woman inappropriately and makes her upset or angry can just throw up his hands and be like, “Whoa, no idea what just happened there.” Or, worse, he can go post on an MRA forum about how women discriminate against unattractive men by calling them creeps.

On an MRA forum, eh? Really? Is that where men say that and don't get called out on it en masse?




And QFT:

But in this case, it’s bad behavior being excused because the person’s attractive, not good behavior being problematized because the person’s unattractive. (I’m tempted to call this the Don Draper Effect, but I’ve been watching too much Mad Men lately.) Needless to say, it’s really creepy to hear someone essentially say, “I wish I were more attractive so I could get away with harassing and abusing people more easily.”