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Fri Feb 21, 2014, 10:21 PM

"A small group" is responsible for all that ails DU

So we are told. Reactionary men could happily live in a world where no one ever suggested to them that they should treat woman as human beings rather than mere objects of lust of rage, if only for a few radical fringe feminists on DU. How many times have we heard everything here is the fault of a "small fringe group"? The comment reveals profound self-delusion. They want to ignore key issues about equality and inclusivity to make it all about a few feminists on this site. Only they are railing against practices that have been standard in every public place for decades in this country. They act like they never before heard there was anything objectionable about posting pictures of bikini babes in public places. They act like they never heard about the concept of a hostile environment before it was raised here recently. They deceive themselves by insisting that only a few loud-mouthed feminists care about such issues, even while posting in a thread with over 177 Duers expressing disapproval of the hostile environment engendered by such pics. They do so knowing that Skinner locked one such thread and instructed the GD hosts to allow no others. Yet it's all because of HOF members, despite the fact that they couldn't get away with any of that stuff in any public space anywhere in this country and haven't been able to for decades.

So what's going on here? Why do they so resent progress? Why do they refuse to consider the concerns of anyone but themselves? Why to they respond cruely to someone who shares a hearbreaking story of repeated rape from a very young age? Why do they systematically refuse to consider the testimony of victims of child abuse, legal rulings and evidence, and repeat the lies generated by the publicity machine of a wealthy, accused pedophile? Why is it they insist on telling people of color they are just too touchy when they point out the obvious--that stereotypical meals of fried chicken and watermelon are purposefully racist and do not "honor" African American culture. To deny the voices of feminists and people of color in articulating what they find offensive represents a clear determination that some see those groups of Americans as unworthy of basic respect or the same rights afforded to white men.

The "small group" didn't post the T and A pics. A small group didn't post the callout threads and posts in GD, all placed for the explicit purpose of creating drama and belittling the views and lives of those they see as entirely without value. One member of the small group did post Dylan Farrow's testimony, and that was an outrage. To consider the views of a woman was an anathema and triggered a meltdown by one particularly angry member. Many others simply refused to read her testimony or the court record showing Woody Allen's entire story was a lie because they didn't want facts to get in the way of their determination to defend an accused pedophile, who's victim was only a girl, hardly anyone who mattered. A member here who expressed a heartfelt story of her own assault was called a liar, insulted and ridiculed, even though what she described happens to millions of girls and boys across our nation. What this small group does is raise the viewpoints of human beings whose lives some consider entirely insignificant.

The fact is we are dealing with some very angry people who hate progress more than anything else. They despise the fact that they are expected to treat others as human, that they can't insult women as b and cs at will (even though they do and juries let them get away with it). Yet the fact that someone might object to their determination to treat women as subhuman is to them an outrage. We see an increase in use of racial slurs, and now we see them attacking LGBT members as loud-mouthed "crusaders" who would be better off keeping their mouths shut. To them, the only ones entitled to speak are themselves and those who support them. Anyone who questions their privilege and suggests that equality does matter is to be attacked and deligitimated at all costs. They personalize the issues to make it about a few HOF members, a few uppity African Americans, and a few LGBT "crusaders" because they won't examine what they are really trying to establish: white, heterosexual male supremacy. They seek to establish in a little corner of the internet something that exists no where offline in the USA. They do so precisely because they so despise the progress of the past half century and they especially resent members of subaltern groups who insist that we too are full citizens entitled to all the same rights, opportunities, and respect that straight, white men enjoy. All of us they so resent on DU could disappear tonight and their lives would not improve in the slightest. They will still live in a society that seeks to expand rather than retract civil rights. They will still live in a world where they have to compete based on merit, education and experience, rather than mere accident of birth. Yet they make it all about a "small group" because they refuse to confront the issues of equality and inclusivity that they are so determined to fight against.

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Arrow 123 replies Author Time Post
Reply "A small group" is responsible for all that ails DU (Original post)
BainsBane Feb 2014 OP
gollygee Feb 2014 #1
redqueen Feb 2014 #42
JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #59
shedevil69taz Feb 2014 #2
BainsBane Feb 2014 #4
Spitfire of ATJ Feb 2014 #14
shedevil69taz Feb 2014 #15
discntnt_irny_srcsm Feb 2014 #94
Sarah Ibarruri Feb 2014 #3
BainsBane Feb 2014 #5
redqueen Feb 2014 #43
CTyankee Feb 2014 #55
Sarah Ibarruri Feb 2014 #54
Iggo Feb 2014 #6
sheshe2 Feb 2014 #7
Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #8
sufrommich Feb 2014 #9
Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #10
sufrommich Feb 2014 #11
Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #12
Name removed Aug 2014 #119
BainsBane Aug 2014 #120
Rhiannon12866 Aug 2014 #121
BainsBane Aug 2014 #122
Rhiannon12866 Aug 2014 #123
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #13
Squinch Feb 2014 #21
sufrommich Feb 2014 #25
redqueen Feb 2014 #45
CTyankee Feb 2014 #56
Squinch Feb 2014 #57
CTyankee Feb 2014 #58
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #95
JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #60
CTyankee Feb 2014 #61
JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #63
CTyankee Feb 2014 #64
JustAnotherGen Feb 2014 #66
CTyankee Feb 2014 #67
R B Garr Feb 2014 #86
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #96
ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #16
Whisp Feb 2014 #49
Democracyinkind Feb 2014 #17
Squinch Feb 2014 #22
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #98
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #97
Squinch Feb 2014 #109
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #110
Squinch Feb 2014 #111
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #112
Squinch Feb 2014 #115
BellaKos Feb 2014 #18
Sheldon Cooper Feb 2014 #19
BellaKos Feb 2014 #26
BainsBane Feb 2014 #50
KitSileya Feb 2014 #20
BellaKos Feb 2014 #28
boston bean Feb 2014 #29
KitSileya Feb 2014 #34
BellaKos Feb 2014 #38
chervilant Feb 2014 #33
KitSileya Feb 2014 #35
chervilant Feb 2014 #37
Sheldon Cooper Feb 2014 #40
chervilant Feb 2014 #71
ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #46
chervilant Feb 2014 #53
seaglass Feb 2014 #23
Squinch Feb 2014 #24
BellaKos Feb 2014 #31
Squinch Feb 2014 #32
BellaKos Feb 2014 #36
Squinch Feb 2014 #39
BellaKos Feb 2014 #41
Squinch Feb 2014 #44
BainsBane Feb 2014 #51
ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #47
DURHAM D Feb 2014 #62
cinnabonbon Feb 2014 #65
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #99
MadrasT Feb 2014 #27
Name removed Feb 2014 #30
Democracyinkind Feb 2014 #48
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #100
DonCoquixote Feb 2014 #52
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #101
DonCoquixote Feb 2014 #102
Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #68
BainsBane Feb 2014 #69
hlthe2b Feb 2014 #70
LWolf Feb 2014 #72
hlthe2b Feb 2014 #73
KitSileya Feb 2014 #74
nomorenomore08 Feb 2014 #103
RBStevens Feb 2014 #75
KitSileya Feb 2014 #76
pintobean Feb 2014 #81
BainsBane Feb 2014 #83
pintobean Feb 2014 #84
BainsBane Feb 2014 #77
seaglass Feb 2014 #78
Sheldon Cooper Feb 2014 #79
DLevine Feb 2014 #80
Sheldon Cooper Feb 2014 #82
DLevine Feb 2014 #85
redqueen Feb 2014 #88
RBStevens Feb 2014 #89
redqueen Feb 2014 #90
DonCoquixote Feb 2014 #106
R B Garr Feb 2014 #87
Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #91
BainsBane Feb 2014 #92
Tuesday Afternoon Feb 2014 #93
DonCoquixote Feb 2014 #104
BainsBane Feb 2014 #105
Recursion Feb 2014 #107
seabeyond Feb 2014 #108
ismnotwasm Feb 2014 #114
Texasgal Feb 2014 #113
seabeyond Feb 2014 #116
Texasgal Feb 2014 #117
seabeyond Feb 2014 #118

Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Feb 21, 2014, 10:35 PM

1. We refuse to watch GD become a boys' club

I'm sure for those who want GD to be a boys' club of swimsuit models, Kate Upton's boobs, and anti-feminist jokes, we are ruining their GD experience.

I'm good with that.

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Response to gollygee (Reply #1)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 11:25 AM

42. +1

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Response to gollygee (Reply #1)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 05:00 PM

59. +1000

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Feb 21, 2014, 11:05 PM

2. I like boobs...

and pictures of them, but not all the time, and if I want to see them DU would be the last place I would even WANT to look.

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Response to shedevil69taz (Reply #2)

Fri Feb 21, 2014, 11:07 PM

4. I've got boobs

and I'm quite attached to them. I haven't got a thing against breasts. People can look pictures of boobs all they want, but they don't need to post them in GD to do so.

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Response to shedevil69taz (Reply #2)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 01:20 AM

14. ...

 

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #14)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 01:34 AM

15. and your feet are blue...

but hey I can't converse with a picture...but go figure when doing so with a live women I have no problem looking her in the eyes

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Response to Spitfire of ATJ (Reply #14)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 08:44 PM

94. It's a blue footed booby



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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Feb 21, 2014, 11:06 PM

3. What aggravates me is that a small handful in here use the term 'feminist' as a pejorative term

Feminist is not a pejorative term. I love calling myself a feminist, because I am a feminist.

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Response to Sarah Ibarruri (Reply #3)

Fri Feb 21, 2014, 11:08 PM

5. What bugs me more

Is when some guy claims he's a real feminists and that I or others aren't because we don't like rape porn or some such crap.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 11:27 AM

43. When guys like that are going around 'explaining' feminism to women

it makes me wonder why they aren't laughed off the site.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #43)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 03:55 PM

55. When I told one of them that his post was "mansplaining" he complained that I was hurling a gender

based insult. I thought that was rich!

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #5)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 03:06 PM

54. Yup, that's just outright lies. nt

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Feb 21, 2014, 11:10 PM

6. Wow!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Feb 21, 2014, 11:47 PM

7. Brava!

So very well said BainsBane. Every last word.

"They personalize the issues to make it about a few HOF members, a few uppity African Americans, and a few LGBT "crusaders" because they won't examine what they are really trying to establish: white, heterosexual male supremacy."

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Feb 21, 2014, 11:56 PM

8. No matter what goes down on DU3. The world is -so- much bigger.

Baines ... wow ... so good. so damn good. Rocking The House.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:14 AM

9. It's about the real estate of DU and which

subjects are allowed to live in the big house and who gets relegated to the guest house. There's an obvious tipping point in GD when the perception is that the guest house inhabitants are getting a little too frisky in the main house and it's not just feminists,it's minorities and LGBT too. I didn't even go into the Straight White Male thread yesterday because I knew it was going to be an embarrassing display of straight white male temper tantrums. Every single time GD gets too many feminist/minority/LGBT threads going,which make the main house uncomfortable,we start getting those stupid "why can't we focus on real issues" OPs.Here's what those pleas mean :You want to talk about issues that are important to feminists,go on over to Feministing,you wanna talk about white male privilege,go on over to The Grio,you want to talk about gay issues go on over to Out. The big house is for serious shit. There's a lot of sub forums on DU,which is good,the problem is when sub forums actually represent whole groups of people,like women,minorities and gays,the assumption is that their issues should stay in sub forums. In other words,go back to your guest cottages and leave the Main house alone.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #9)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:19 AM

10. so much the analogy of the Plantation House and The Slaves quarters going on with what you

wrote ... or am I the only one to see it that way?

Maybe I have too vivid an imagination.



but, anyway ... that is what I saw when I was reading that.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #10)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:26 AM

11. I dont know,I just notice that the default setting

in a lot of political forums is straight white male,the rest of us are just living in their world.

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Response to sufrommich (Reply #11)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:35 AM

12. and those that cater to the straight, white, males. They are welcome.


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Response to sufrommich (Reply #9)


Response to sufrommich (Reply #9)

Tue Aug 19, 2014, 02:01 AM

120. Looks like a troll found your post so fascinating

He had to reanimate the thread. No idea what he said though. (and yes, I'm assuming it's a he.)

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #120)

Tue Aug 19, 2014, 03:32 AM

121. He was selling real estate - in Singapore.

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Response to Rhiannon12866 (Reply #121)

Tue Aug 19, 2014, 05:03 AM

122. How funny

Thanks. I always wonder what I miss.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #122)

Tue Aug 19, 2014, 05:23 AM

123. He was just one of many late night spammers

Must have done a search for real estate...

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:46 AM

13. While I'm not a mind-reader, I certainly can't deny that these tendencies exist even among

relatively leftish folks. After all, none of us are immune to ingrained cultural biases, no matter how relatively enlightened any of us might be in other respects. Add to that the self-centeredness that seems endemic to nearly all of humanity, and you've got the perfect recipe for even self-identified progressives to be complete jackasses from time to time.

But I guess the question is, what do you do when they just won't listen no matter how "nice" you are about it? Even worse when they keep throwing out ridiculous strawmen which bear little resemblance to reality, e.g. "ZOMG YOU'RE TRYING TO BAN BOOBIES!" or some related bullshit. Really, I can't believe that full-grown adults who supposedly possess a modicum of intelligence would carry on like this.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #13)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:40 AM

21. Those strawmen are not that surprising, because they are an almost universal response

to the loss of unearned privileges. I can deal with the strawmen because I know they are just statements of ignorance.

What I can't stomach is the gleeful cruelty that I have seen in the last few days, and the smug entitlement of those who are now insisting that the experiences of others are unimportant when held up against their discomfort or inconvenience.

What I also find tragic are those who are so pitiful, and so obvious in their need for attention, who keep cropping up and saying, "Look over here! I created this conflict, and I deserve credit for it! Don't forget about me! I have to have attention for this! Look at me!"

All I can do in the face of these responses is recognize that, grotesque as they are, they are just death throes of ignorant and obsolete attitudes.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 08:01 AM

25. .......

Very well said,Squinch.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 11:44 AM

45. Goddess yes, the need for attention. For personal recognition.

It's clearly not about discussing political ideas for some. Once again I'm reminded of what JAG said.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #21)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 04:05 PM

56. I blush to confess that I was tempted to post a "Feminist men are better lovers" thread here

and really drive them over the edge (I think it is true, being married to one). However, it wasn't worth the drama, even tho some of it might have been interesting...from a purely sociological view, you understand...I didn't because it would be considered "cruel and unusual punishment" and god knows what would happen...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #56)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 04:29 PM

57. Well...

... but it's true!

But you probably made the right choice.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #57)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 04:37 PM

58. women have been burned at the stake for less...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #58)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 10:16 PM

95. Frightening, the way people often respond to perceived (even if falsely so) threats.

Anything that disturbs their conception of reality can be enough to drive them to murder, even mass murder.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #56)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 05:03 PM

60. Well

It is true!

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #60)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 05:12 PM

61. I know that and you know that and many, many feminists (male and female) know that but it doesn't

diminish the punch in the gut I am sure some men would feel if I did. Now the feminist men in my family and friends would gently smile and my feminist women friends would get a nice laugh out of it. But here it is different. Until recently I thought it was just an open secret here on DU that nobody needed to talk about but knew was true, but now I have changed my mind. And I don't really want to punch some guy who is feeling really bad about stuff in his life...I want to help, not hurt.

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #61)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 05:39 PM

63. You are too nice

You would actually be doing him a favor ct. And my husband would not smile meekly - his head would grow ten times larger and he'd start beating his chest. :lmao:

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #63)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 05:53 PM

64. I think it is best to leave it where it is and keep on educating. Teachable moments...

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Response to CTyankee (Reply #64)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 06:36 PM

66. Well I just taught on another thread

That I'm not looking for fashion advice from the men at DU. I'm just not. And so the only reason I can comprehend that cover was posted was to deliver a T and A Sucker Punch.

See I can post on this thread amongst you all that I'm short waisted so I avoid one piece swim suits.
^this would be totally lost on them". So what were they trying to "share" with that nonsense.

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Response to JustAnotherGen (Reply #66)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:05 PM

67. good for you! I can understand that very well...

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Response to Squinch (Reply #21)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 06:00 PM

86. Yes, the "Me! It's on Me!" posts are to pick at the scabs to see more festering piles of goo

I guess there wasn't enough carnage of hidden posts in the original SI thread that they are now openly requesting that you insult them -- obviously so they can alert on your posts. The more you talk about them personally, the more chance they have of getting your posts hidden. It's so obvious.

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Response to R B Garr (Reply #86)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 10:21 PM

96. Childish, self-absorbed, think they're steaming hot shit... And these folks are supposed to be

on the good side (politically at least)? It's enough to make me despair for humanity...

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 02:32 AM

16. Personally I think a few have-- serious issues--

A few just like to stir it up and a few who probably shouldn't be allowed outside.

Fuck that "small group' bullshit. It's stupid, and by now kind of boring. I don't post much outside this group, but if I did so what?

Anyway. I still think they're just debris. Time is passing them by and the revolution starts now.

And since I have healthy ego-- there's always this sentiment

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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #16)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:40 PM

49. very serious creeper issues if you ask me

 

Most are just acting like immature idiot boys - when it comes to sex or women's bodies they just get thrown all askew and their brains shut down, but yeh, a couple/few are fucking scary.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 02:41 AM

17. Shame on you uppity wiminz!

It's getting ridiculous. I was just told that DU's feminists goad men in the same way that these MRA losers goad you.

I'm not sure I'd still be here if I were a woman. Very similar to the change in DU's views on race, what with the whole "sorry for being white" schtick.

Frat culture. The new DU. Controversy sells, even if it's manufactered.

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #17)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:44 AM

22. The new market being catered to, apparently, is the far, far right. From 1962.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #22)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 10:30 PM

98. Yeah, for self-proclaimed progressives, some of these guys are awfully Archie Bunker-lite... n/t

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Response to Democracyinkind (Reply #17)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 10:28 PM

97. "Frat culture. The new DU. Controversy sells, even if it's manufactured."

Spot on. So long as there's something to gawk at - like Kate Upton's mammary glands - the folks in the cheap seats will keep coming back for more. And narcissistic bullshit like the infamous "I used to be a rapist" thread will keep getting recs.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #97)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:39 PM

109. I strongly agree but there is one addition I would make: white frat culture, as we have

seen in other threads.

It's pretty disgusting, really.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #109)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:45 PM

110. Yeah, whether people realize it or not, it is about framing issues in a totally right-wing way.

Like people who talk about "reasonable time limits" on abortion - as if they're presuming to tell women, all women really, when they may or may not terminate a pregnancy. And now we have someone trying to tell me that "late-term abortion" = "frivolous baby-killing" is not a right-wing strawman when it so manifestly is. Yet if I were to call the staunch RKBA advocates "baby killers" - and one could easily argue that they have far more blood on their hands than any pro-choicer - my post would likely be hidden.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #110)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 05:57 PM

111. What the hell is going on?? Why do we have to fight right wing trolls to have a conversation about

progressive topics here, every damn time!

And it's all the SAME right wing trolls, many of whom have been tolerated here for years!

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Response to Squinch (Reply #111)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:09 PM

112. Unless they're big-time donors, I can't imagine the net value in letting them hang around spewing

their bullshit. One of the worst, ironically, took his user name from a certain Welsh socialist.

All I can figure is that Skinner tries too hard to be all things to all people. Which, at least in a context like DU, doesn't really work out to anyone's satisfaction.

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #112)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:21 PM

115. Oy, that one! I don't know what the reasoning could possibly be, but it's really just as unpleasant

here lately as it is in my tea-bagger brother's house. That's not an exaggeration. And I have to have the SAME arguments.

Precious little "D" in DU lately.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 03:20 AM

18. BainsBane

You wrote:
"The fact is we are dealing with some very angry people who hate progress more than anything else. They despise the fact that they are expected to treat others as human, that they can't insult women as b and cs at will (even though they do and juries let them get away with it"
Generalize much? How can you presume to characterize people here with such a sweeping generalization, based on nothing more than your apparent mind reading capabilities?

We can't deem each and every offense as cruelty, when, more likely than not, it's a result of cultural indoctrination that
takes a lifetime to overcome. Yes, point out a comment as offensive, but say *why* explicitly in an effort to educate, instead of reflexively condemning people as being deliberately cruel, angry, and unwilling to treat others with respect.

After all, there are far larger issues happening today that do demand outrage and that we can safely assume are predicated by cruelty, anger, and disrespect for race, gender, or sexual orientation. But when it comes to DUers, education would likely work. But it would have to be education delivered honestly with the intention to explain and not prefaced by an insinuation that the DU member is *less than* one who is truly and purely progressive, open-minded, knowledgeable, and enlightened.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:18 AM

19. Oh, it's you.

I see your back with your patronizing crap. Do you honestly think that we haven't tried "education"? Seriously? Your condescension is duly noted.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 08:03 AM

26. Sheldon Cooper

Reflexive much?

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #19)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:47 PM

50. I quit reading her posts

after the one on the thread with Dylan Farrow's testimony, where someone accused Dylan of being the "abuser" and she endorsed the sentiment. That told me everything I needed to know about that member.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:27 AM

20. I tried education. I tried being reasonable, and polite.

All I got back that what I was doing was "being mean." Because that is our only purpose with trying to calmly explain the wider implications of the focus on t&a - our meaning is "to be mean."

I challenge you to read the following subthread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024532061#post103

and point out to me where I didn't try "to educate" but was instead "reflexively condemning people as being deliberately cruel, angry, and unwilling to treat others with respect."

Go on, I dare you.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #20)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 08:52 AM

28. KitSileya

I was addressing BainsBane specifically, who wrote sweeping generalizations about a segment of DU members.

That said, I didn't participate in those threads that seem to be the root of the controversy here, because somehow I knew that they would contain a mishmash of accusations.

But if you did try to educate -- explain why certain comments, phrases, nuanced remarks, pictures, activities, organizations, etc. -- are insensitive, thoughtless, and offensive, then I commend you. If what you got in return was determined, narrow-minded ignorance, then consider the source and move on. Willful ignorance cannot be penetrated with education regardless of the intention.

But all I am saying is that to dismiss people based on the assumption that he or she is being deliberately cruel, as some here seem to do frequently, is a rush to judgment -- especially within the *context* of a community of progressives. Culture, background, experience, and parents embed a point of view, a perspective, within the first three years of life. That childhood imprint sits within the subconscious for a lifetime and will leak out occasionally, regardless to what extent one has embraced a progressive philosophy, intellectually. It takes constant work, education, travel, and a cold, hard, honest self-review to *unlearn* the impressions of that imprint. And I've never seen anyone in my life -- even among the well-educated and well-known -- who have been able to overcome that imprint effectively. No one on earth is perfectly, politically correct.

I say give people a break.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 08:54 AM

29. Wow, this OP is in response to sweeping generalizations made

against feminists here on DU.

That you continue to only concern yourself with disputing this OP, is mighty telling.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #28)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 09:52 AM

34. I think telling people that when they are harassed,

it's their own fault if they are upset about it is cruel. Doubling down on that is being deliberately cruel. Being told that we are sick if we describe our reality is being deliberately cruel. I'm not letting that slide under the guise of 'cultural indoctrination.' If the activists of yore had done that, you wouldn't have the right to vote, and African-Americans would still be slaves.

I expect better of people who call themselves Democrats, lefties, progressives, liberals. No one is perfect, but that doesn't mean that we should let cruel and demeaning behavior continue. You may be ok with that, but I am not.

It seems that you have no problems condemning a this group of "rushing to judgment", but give a pass to everyone else.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #34)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 10:13 AM

38. KitSileya

You wrote:
"...that doesn't mean that we should let cruel and demeaning behavior continue. You may be ok with that, but I am not."
I never implied that I was okay with the kind of behavior you describe.

Also:
"It seems that you have no problems condemning a this group of "rushing to judgment", but give a pass to everyone else."
In no way did I condemn anyone. Nor did I give a pass to everyone else. And I don't even know who you mean by "this group" or "everyone else." I wasn't part of the battles on the other threads.

Oh and ... you rushed to judge me. Just sayin'.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #20)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 09:16 AM

33. After perusing the post you linked (OMG!),

I've expanded my ignore list by two. The elderly originator of that OP was on my first IL. I wish I'd left her there. Ah, well, better late than never...

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Response to chervilant (Reply #33)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 09:56 AM

35. My ignore list is empty. Perhaps it shouldn't be.

After 12 years as a member on DU, I have always thought that I shouldn't put anyone on ignore, but I think that I am naive in that regards. I have wanted to be able to see what people say, all posters, but when such hostility is left to stand, what worth does DU have as a forum for discussion? I really should just let my star lapse, and then when the ads come back, that'll ensure that I will stay away (I hate ads, and that's mainly why I have a star.) If Skinner isn't interested in having a site that is for progressive Democrats anymore, then why should I contribute to his site hits?

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #35)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 10:07 AM

37. My ignore list was empty, until I started adding the misogynists,

the sexists, the racists, the homophobes, and the verbal bullies. I've learned to purge it occasionally, since the racists and homophobes tend to get a pizza. (That the originators of this website have been so reluctant to address the sexism says more about them than they seem to realize...)

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Response to chervilant (Reply #37)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 10:58 AM

40. Your last sentence is so true.

And they appear to be completely oblivious to it.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #40)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 09:35 AM

71. I've read this morning

that two threads were locked -- but the offensive post of the SI swimsuit cover is NOT locked. I guess we have to be happy with the locks on the other OPs...

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Response to chervilant (Reply #37)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:11 PM

46. I just started the other day

After all there years, I'm finally using ignore. It's useless to argue in most cases.

"They"Remind me of this quote from "The Terminater"

Kyle Reese: Listen, and understand. That terminator is out there. It can't be bargained with. It can't be reasoned with. It doesn't feel pity, or remorse, or fear. And it absolutely will not stop, ever, until you are dead.


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Response to ismnotwasm (Reply #46)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 02:31 PM

53. My boss had a confab

with the owner of our company (they're butt buddies), during which they made several racist remarks about Obama and concluded that "we just need to exterminate all the Democrats."

Keep your fingers crossed that I find another job soon...wish I could put those two on my ignore list.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:46 AM

23. No mind reading necessary when there is a history of words. n/t

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #18)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:54 AM

24. Are you an adult? Do you really think that "cultural indoctrination" still gives you a pass?

If so, you are wrong.

Your post is exactly what is being discussed here: you admonish those who disagree with you not to notice the cruelty of others' positions, and tell them they must be tolerant of the "cultural indoctrination" of, let's face it, the angry white man.

And in the same breath, you dismiss that those who DO notice that cruelty as "reflexively condemning people." And, predictably, you throw in the old canard of, "These issues are simply not as important as the things that I think are important."

According to your post, "cultural indoctrination" allows one to treat others with disregard and cruelty, but those on the receiving end of that cruelty must respond with patience and a desire to "educate."

Here's the answer: No. Grow up. Educate yourself. Your ignorance is not my responsibility.

Take your double standard and shove it.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #24)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 09:03 AM

31. Squinch

You wrote:
"... you admonish those who disagree with you not to notice the cruelty of others' positions, and tell them they must be tolerant of the "cultural indoctrination" of, let's face it, the angry white man."
Nope. Not at all. I never *admonished* anyone. Nor did I suggest that one be tolerant of insensitivity, but instead, realize that if one is insensitive, it may not be deliberate cruelty as BainsBane has suggested. Many, many times. Key word: *deliberate*.

Also:
"According to your post, "cultural indoctrination" allows one to treat others with disregard and cruelty, but those on the receiving end of that cruelty must respond with patience and a desire to "educate." "
I certainly didn't say that either.

And this:
"Here's the answer: No. Grow up. Educate yourself. Your ignorance is not my responsibility.

Take your double standard and shove it."

Did you intend to be cruel, intolerant, hurtful, or just mindlessly insensitive when you said that I was immature, uneducated, ignorant, and harbored a double standard? Just wondering.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #31)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 09:07 AM

32. Is that your "cultural indoctrination" that isn't allowing you to see that you are

supporting my argument?

If you think I might have been being cruel and intolerant, shouldn't you just be chalking that up to my cultural indoctrination?

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Response to Squinch (Reply #32)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 09:58 AM

36. Squinch

Well, actually, Squinch, I was thinking that your misreading of my remarks and your attacking me personally were evidence of my argument.
But in answer to your question, I thought that your mindless insensitivity was the result of some residual anger carried over from battles on other threads. I didn't take it personally, but it was hurtful nonetheless.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #36)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 10:16 AM

39. And you didn't consider for a second that it was an appropriate response to the

entitled double standard you require.

So, there it is...

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Response to Squinch (Reply #39)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 11:17 AM

41. Squinch

No, I did not consider your misreading of my remarks and then adding a personal attack as being appropriate. And I don't even know what you mean by "entitled double standard."

But your inappropriate responses serve no purpose whatsoever other than to add to the rancor around here. They don't inform, educate, enlighten, or expand the discussion. They were all about you, Squinch -- trying to get in some licks on somebody she or he considers unworthy.
Congratulations, you win.

And now I understand why elections are so close and why the Repubs may win the Senate this year. It's because Dems are constantly picking on each other -- *ass*uming the worst about each other -- looking down on others as *less than* perfectly tolerant, knowledgeable, progressive, and enlightened.

It's self-righteous Bull%hit of the first order. Judgmental. Self-righteous. Hypocritical BS!!!!!!

But take heart, you're not the only one around here who looks down on those of us who don't understand persecution, discrimination, intolerance, and prejudice as well as you do, Squinch. We just can't possibly know what it's like. Only you do. And only those of you who are puffed up by a sense of indignation and persecution can judge.

We, who have had the same or even worse thrown at us, cannot possibly be considered worthy or *good enough* to participate or, god forbid, object to the opinions of the herd. We're simply not outraged enough according to the tenants of our "betters" -- although we just may have struggled a lifetime to try to understand. That's all. Just tryin' to understand.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 11:41 AM

44. Oh, of course. I don't accept your idea that I need to approach

objectifying nonsense with tolerance about "cultural indoctrination" and an effort to "educate" people. So that is why Republicans will win the Senate.

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

If we lose the Senate, it will because women on the whole, in spite of the mammoth shit that the Republicans have thrown at them, still don't feel motivated enough by the Democratic party to get out the vote. Wonder why.

When you begin your argument with the idea that I need to be tolerant of self-righteous bullshit because it comes from "cultural indoctrination" and therefore those who hold the "cultural indoctrination" get a pass, then clearly, no. You don't understand. I don't know if you can possibly know what it's like. What I do know is that you are working hard not to.

And if, after a lifetime of struggling to understand, you STILL don't get that it is obnoxious to post T&A photos in places where people have said they don't want them, then you need to struggle harder.

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Response to Squinch (Reply #44)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:52 PM

51. especially when a number of those people have said they are not Democrats

and will not vote for Democrats again, yet somehow raising trivial concerns about "equal rights' means a Republican victory is our fault. I thank God the Democratic Party doesn't share their values and insist that women and people of color need to keep their mouths shut.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:13 PM

47. What the hell did you just say?

I mean I'm very literate, but that made very little sense from a logical standpoint.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 05:33 PM

62. What is in a name?

http://www.vocabulary.com/dictionary/bellicose


If you walk into a high school where you know no one, find the toughest looking girl in the halls and tell her she's ugly, them's fighting words. Or bellicose ones. Bellicose means eager for war.

Bellicose is from Latin bellum "war." A near synonym is belligerent, from the same Latin noun. You may wonder if they're connected to the Latin bellus "pretty, handsome," which gives us the names Bella or Isabella, as well as belle "a beautiful woman." They're not. War and beauty are not related, except in the case of Helen of Troy.




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Response to BellaKos (Reply #41)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 06:00 PM

65. "A personal attack"? I don't see one.

"Here's the answer: No. Grow up. Educate yourself. Your ignorance is not my responsibility.

Take your double standard and shove it."

I don't see what was inappropriate about this response? Educating ourselves on issues we don't know enough about is kind of the point of coming to a political discussion board.

If we want oppressed people to educate us, we should be paying them to do so. I mean, think of it from their position, for a change. Do you want their whole life to be nothing but educating ignorant people 1) who rarely gets it and 2) are openly antagonizing them for voicing their experience?

It's no wonder people get impatient and snappy. Especially considering that most of what ignorant people are wondering about can be found through google.

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Response to BellaKos (Reply #18)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 10:47 PM

99. Problem is, to a certain extent, your suggested approach has been tried and has failed.

Believe me, I've tried to express things in as conciliatory a way as I can, and people still whine and complain and take every damn thing personally.

"Generalize much? How can you presume to characterize people here with such a sweeping generalization, based on nothing more than your apparent mind reading capabilities?"

I'm not a huge fan of sweeping generalizations myself, but if you pay enough attention you can start to notice fairly obvious patterns of behavior. And when that behavior is clearly unbecoming of conscientious, progressive people, someone has to call it out lest it become the acceptable norm.

"We can't deem each and every offense as cruelty, when, more likely than not, it's a result of cultural indoctrination that
takes a lifetime to overcome."

I don't disagree with this at all. But just because people's attitudes or behaviors are the result of "indoctrination" doesn't make them okay. And if no one ever tells them that this or that isn't okay, how will they know?

"Yes, point out a comment as offensive, but say *why* explicitly in an effort to educate."

Fine by me. But people will still take something personally when you didn't mean it that way at all. After a while it frankly gets to be exhausting.

"But when it comes to DUers, education would likely work."

You're a bit more optimistic than I am, I must say...

"... not prefaced by an insinuation that the DU member is less than one who is truly and purely progressive..."

I know what you're saying, but honestly that's a bit rich when the very attitudes we're battling against are predicated on the notion that one race, gender, etc. is inherently superior to another. Even the complaining about "white privilege" - as a concept or simply as a phrase - smacks implicitly of white supremacy, as if white people's relative advantages in society were simply the natural order of things.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 08:36 AM

27. "The fact is we are dealing with some very angry people who hate progress more than anything else."

They don't view it as "progress".

To them, it is a zero sum game, and if life improves for women, LGBT, or people of color, then that means to them that they themselves are also losing something.

They are circling the wagons to protect what they view as their ever-shrinking territory. The more threatened they feel, the louder and nastier they holler.

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #27)


Response to MadrasT (Reply #27)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 12:19 PM

48. Very true. nt

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Response to MadrasT (Reply #27)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 11:04 PM

100. Yes, people who have relatively little in life and are afraid of losing even that.

But the right-wing ideology - and yes, denying the existence of systemic racism, sexism, homophobia is right-wing at its core - they fall back on perhaps without even knowing it, won't save them either. Matter of fact, it's that very ideology which has nearly destroyed our country over the past few decades.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 01:47 PM

52. as I said on another thread

There are many who hate the GOP when the elephant jabs it's tusk into them, but were quite happy when it was stomping others. In any case, we refuse to let our country, our party, or this forum, become the province of a few that gain power due to their ability to whine, yell, or back stab.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #52)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 11:11 PM

101. Like those who seemingly pine for the (pre-Reagan) "good old days" when really

the "good" part only applied to working- and-middle-class white men. Now that many of those men have been largely dragged down to everyone else's level, they're understandably not happy about that...

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Response to nomorenomore08 (Reply #101)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 11:14 PM

102. Bingo

especially since they realize that they were used as Puppets.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:51 PM

68. FREE-DUMB !!! although the definition I just read, in GD, of freedom sounded more like

ANARCHY to me ....
I have to keep reminding myself that people have the right to be as dumb as they want to be.

Maybe Darwin's Law will get them eventually.

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #68)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 07:58 PM

69. Is this more Ayn Rand freedom?

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sat Feb 22, 2014, 08:09 PM

70. A thread inspired by your post, BainsBane

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 12:59 PM

72. I've been wondering, lately,

if the sudden surge in gender wars has anything to do with 2016.

I remember being shocked, disillusioned, and finally disgusted with what happened in '08, when DU, supposed "liberals," created a race vs gender war during the primaries.

I guess it was easier for me not to dive into that morass because I frankly didn't want either candidate to be nominated. Gender and race aside, they were, and are, both too centrist to get my support. I cried on election night, because it was a big deal that a person of color was elected to the White House, regardless if he was someone I could get behind politically. Still, I never really regained the respect lost for Democrats who would pit gender against race for an election, because I'm one of those idealists who is all about issues, and the issues always lose when it comes to choosing candidates for national elections. Which is why I can't get excited about primaries; I'll always lose.

Suddenly, as the midterm elections draw near during a lame duck president's last 2 years, there have been more and more conversations about '16; a hard-core, take-no-prisoners group pushing HRC like she's the only choice, and others pushing back, if not quite as hard.

I'm wondering if that's what has sparked the recent gender-related fights on DU. Are we going to do this all over again?

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Response to LWolf (Reply #72)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 01:04 PM

73. I think it is quite likely... n/t

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 02:48 PM

74. One thing that surprises me..

Well, not really, but you know what I mean. It's all these claims that things are never going to change. Objectification will always be there, because advertising companies uses it. Men will always objectify women because hormones/apes/sex.

Well, my question is this - why are most of the Democratic left trying to cobble together a health care option? Why are we trying to eradicate racism? Why are we trying to give LGBT people equal rights? Companies want to use health insurance as a way to keep their workers oppressed and shackled to their jobs. This country was founded on racism. Tons of straight people think gay sex is "icky" and against their sexual preference.

They are so hypocritical it reeks!

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #74)

Thu Feb 27, 2014, 11:59 PM

103. They also misunderstand (perhaps willfully) what objectification is. It's nothing inherently to do

with the human libido. As I've said before, "lust" is a perfectly natural, animal response, whereas the capitalist commodification of it (e.g. Kate Upton's boobs all over the place) is not.

But the way some complain, you'd think someone was personally coming after them with a scalpel!

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 03:37 PM

75. Forgive me but I need to put this somewhere...

 

because I am not with a female partner now, and every once in a while I feel the need to piss someone (a woman or women usually) off, and I do it on DU.


JFC, it's a need.

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #75)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 03:43 PM

76. Who said that?

Wow, that's awful.

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Response to KitSileya (Reply #76)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 04:25 PM

81. Here's the link

 

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024548058#post263

I found the whole post to be BS, trying to justify shit-stirring posts that were locked by admin and hidden by jury. I find the above quote disturbing and telling.

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Response to pintobean (Reply #81)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 04:31 PM

83. Decided to swtich sides, did you?

Now that the tide has turned.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #83)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 04:45 PM

84. Not at all.

 

He only represents himself. I don't want to spit in anyone's face or piss off women. I saw his OPs for what they were, before they were locked or hidden. I typed out a reply to his hidden post telling him how fucked up it was, but it was hidden before I posted. It said that there is a word for what he's doing, and that word can be found in admin notes on former DUers' transparency pages.

I was going to alert on the linked post, but I figured one of you already had.

There are lines that shouldn't be crossed. I think you dance on both sides of it. He crosses it and flaunts the fact that he does.

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #75)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 03:45 PM

77. Someone said that?

As a way to justify mistreatment of women on DU?

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #75)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 04:03 PM

78. not unexpected from that poster. n/t

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #75)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 04:16 PM

79. Would you please name that person?

They've forfeited any right to privacy with a post like that.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #79)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 04:25 PM

80. Bennyboy. In the Dear Gentlemen of DU thread. nt

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Response to DLevine (Reply #80)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 04:30 PM

82. Thanks.

I have him and the rest of that gang on ignore, so I missed it.

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Response to Sheldon Cooper (Reply #82)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 05:28 PM

85. And the DU jury system votes 3-3 to leave it.

I almost never alert, and this is why. It's a waste of time.

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #75)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 06:33 PM

88. I doubt that anyone who has been paying attention finds that at all surprising.

I also doubt anyone who is active in feminist groups thinks it is at all unique to that one individual, or that it is not common among men who show a hostility towards non-brogressive-approved forms of feminism.

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Response to redqueen (Reply #88)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 07:14 PM

89. No kidding. As I said over on the thread

 

it only surprised me that he said it straight up like that. I mean, talk about a complete lack of subtlety! Lol

And then that the jury let it stand? That blatant crap on women? WOW

Nope, no misogyny here folks - move along.

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Response to RBStevens (Reply #89)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 07:16 PM

90. Well the TOS covers 'gender' issues and that should be enough dammit!

Last edited Sun Feb 23, 2014, 07:47 PM - Edit history (1)

Why should it say anything at all about sexism or misogyny? Really, now. We ladies just need to kindly and gently educate everyone with our sweetest internet voices and that will fix everything!

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Response to redqueen (Reply #90)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 02:36 AM

106. sadly, the TOS

is very much a useless set of words. You can define hierarchy by who can blatantly get away with breaking it and who they punish for even appearing to touch it.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 06:10 PM

87. Great post, BainsBane

I can't help but look at many of the posts attacking feminists here as coming from a right-wing mentality. That's where I tend to think their agenda is coming from, and it's hard for me to take their so-called arguments seriously because of that.

I totally agree with your sentiments here, and I do think that they try to personalize things as a way to marginalize people and provoke them.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 07:24 PM

91. well ... it -is- a small group but,

it ain't -this- group ... ;

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Response to Tuesday Afternoon (Reply #91)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 07:27 PM

92. I don't think they all post in that group

Though I couldn't say for sure because I have it in the trash can.

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Response to BainsBane (Reply #92)

Sun Feb 23, 2014, 07:35 PM

93. as do I. -- I trashed it when I got banned from there and, then they started an OP

bashing me seven ways from Sunday and, then allowed me back in using the excuse that they do a year end purging of their ban list.

I can only imagine what my thread looks like now.



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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 01:08 AM

104. we saw this in 2008

When frankly all sides were on their worst behavior, where people trotted out so many "My minority deserves to win and yours sucks" posts it showed how truly low things had gotten. The actual merits of Barack Obama and Hillary Clinton were ignored, outright discarded.

Now, the old cliche of "angry white male" is weaker, but mostly because women and minorities got to the polls and did the work that these men used to claim all the credit for. Let's face it, the stronger candidates on the Democratic side are Women, and to be even more frank, the GOP has a list of Female candidates ready to leap right into the cockpit when their favored candidates crash dive. Simply put, these folks used to be the gatekeeper of everything, and they now know that when they talk to us, it is not the old "OK, I will be polite to you, but you know you will give me exactly what i want, exactly how I want it, and if you are nice, I may do something nice, not that I am in any fucking way obligated to!"

So they will get on the internet and try to be the cowboys and action heroes they thought they were destined to be. It's like a reverse of the movie FIGHT CLUB. I say the reverse in that instead of actually attacking the corporations and politicians that really DID emasculate them, they pick on those that they falsely perceive as weak.

That's ok little boys, we will save this country, despite you. And we know better than to ask you to thank us, because we know you do not have the integrity or the honesty to admit you were fools.

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Response to DonCoquixote (Reply #104)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 01:11 AM

105. You nailed it.

Simply put, these folks used to be the gatekeeper of everything, and they now know that when they talk to us, it is not the old "OK, I will be polite to you, but you know you will give me exactly what i want, exactly how I want it, and if you are nice, I may do something nice, not that I am in any fucking way obligated to!"


Exactly.

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 08:01 AM

107. Supremacist politics are very easily absorbed

I'm a straight white guy from the South; I can't begin to describe the seduction of pretending where I am is because of what I did. That's the problem, isn't it? The system hides it. It has to. I was lucky that I had parents who taught me about Seneca Falls in addition to my school's teaching me about the Declaration of Independence.

I'm not penning some apologia here; as Lionness pointed out in GD, this takes work -- a lot of work. But as someone who was groomed up as the "supreme" side of things, I can't stress enough how absolutely transparent the supremacist process is made.

From my view in the cheap seats, the synthesis is this:

* sexism is a moral flaw
* I am a moral person
* accusations of sexism against me cannot be sincere, because I am manifestly moral

From its own standpoint, that's a fair synthesis, which is exactly what is so dangerous here, because it completely undermines the entire concept of overcoming oppression. To use race as a proxy for sex, it's not the case that my many relatives in Mississippi (whom, by the way, I love) were immoral people in the 1950's and became gradually more moral as time went on: they were perfectly normal people in a very, very sick system in the 1950s which became gradually less pathological over time (and still has a lot of work to do).

This (again, from the cheap seats) is the unfortunate result of making sexism "about" the sexist. It was what could be done, back in the day, but it ignored the fact that making oppression "about" the oppressor still does oppression's work. If the task of antiracism is to "redeem" racist people, then it's no longer something I care about that much; ditto antisexism and sexist people. We don't need more redemption stories about the privileged guy who finds his way to being a good person thanks to the spunky intern. We need stories that really aren't about us (the privileged guys) at all. If I get redeemed along the way, fine, but as long as that's the point, it feeds more of this unfortunateness.

Anyways, I'm not a frequent HOF contributer though I own the name "feminist" and appreciate feminist history, but I wanted to propose something of a thesis, if possible:

To the extent that sexism is presented as an attribute of the individual rather than of a social or cultural system in which that individual lives, that presentation will fail because of the (false but persuasive) synthesis I outlined above. I know you all probably know that, but I haven't actually seen that stated in what I've read and I think it's worth considering.

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Response to Recursion (Reply #107)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 08:14 AM

108. thank you for putting out this angle. excellent. nt

 

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Response to Recursion (Reply #107)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:12 PM

114. Excellent

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Response to BainsBane (Original post)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:10 PM

113. It's HOF's FAULT!!!

RUN! RUN for your lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



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Response to Texasgal (Reply #113)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:21 PM

116. RUN! RUN for your lives!!!!!!!!!!!!!! too funny, huh? nt

 

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Response to seabeyond (Reply #116)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:26 PM

117. The whole thing is becoming more

comical daily!

Baines got it right, most of the SI threads were started by non-hof blaming hof that we are ruining everything!!!

Just wait until the privilege thread finger pointing starts! UGH!

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Response to Texasgal (Reply #117)

Fri Feb 28, 2014, 06:29 PM

118. what do you mean. it already has, lol. nt

 

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