Support for femnists on DU is strong

[BainsBane]

Last edited Mon Feb 24, 2014, 05:43 PM - Edit history (2)

as is evidenced by the hundreds of recommendations threads from supporters of women's rights have received over the past few days. Juries, however, continue to be stacked against us. Someone pointed out to me today why this is happening. It's our ignore lists. In having them on ignore and trashing certain groups, we stack juries in the favor of members who post flamebait and deliberately seek to offend women.

As an example, I point you to the recent thread in GD on breasts. The results for both the OP and hidden post are posted in that thread. The outcomes are entirely opposite. This has to be due to ignore lists. I know how unpleasant it is to see posts from certain members, but ignore lists are having an impact on the governance of the site. I encourage you to rethink your ignore lists, as I have mine.

[RBStevens]

1. I must say that I

felt the need to alert on a post earlier today and it was 1-5 leave it. It was a *broad brush* complete misrepresentation of HoF members being "anti-woman". That poster had just been banned from HoF and it was in that context primarily the comment was made.

I suspect that many regular posters here have that person on their ignore list.

[TDale313]

2. good point.

I may have to rethink mine. Until a couple months ago I had hardly anyone on ignore. My list has ballooned now. Time to take some of them off.

Also? Use your jury blacklists. Someone who seems actively hostile to you or your values or this group? Doesn't need to be deciding your fate on DU, paricularly with the 5 hide rule.

[KitSileya]

7. I just used my jury blacklist.

Just used the group info to help me pick out the worst offenders, even though I have only ever had one post hidden, for posting a feminist bingo card. Dunno how many have been alerted, though - I think the poster should get the jury results even if the jury decides to leave it. Much more transparent process if that were the case.

[question everything]

3. I've never had anyone on "ignore."

I don't spend much time here and certainly do not read most of the threads.

I was advised, however, the the porn misogynist crowed is active late at night. Thus, complaining to a jury is useless during these hours.

[BainsBane]

4. Yes, very good point.

Unfortunately, I have similar hours. You are correct that it's better to wait until morning to alert. Of course the problem is that the shit has been well stirred by then.

[DURHAM D]

47. Also true of the gun humpers. nt

[AtheistCrusader]

5. Mirror your Jury Blacklist to your Ignore list.

I actually don't use the ignore list at all, but if I did, and I put someone on it, that is certainly someone I don't want on a jury for my post or alert.

[theHandpuppet]

9. If I may ask...

What is a "jury blacklist" and how does that work?

[KitSileya]

10. If you click on "My Account"

one of the tabs says 'Jury blacklist' - it's the 4th tab from the left. A star account has 15 spots on their blacklist, a non-star account has 5.


"DU members on your Jury Blacklist will never be selected to serve on a Jury which is reviewing one of your posts. Members are not notified if you add them to your Blacklist. To add a member, begin by entering at least the first three characters of their username in the box below, then click "Find member":"

[theHandpuppet]

13. Thanks very much!

I hate to put anyone on a jury blacklist but I have to admit there are some folks sitting on juries who have no freakin' business judging posts on a progressive forum.

[KitSileya]

15. Always happy to help a fellow Reprobate!

It may have been 13 years since we left the Nutforums, but we still fight the good fight, right, theHandpuppet?

[theHandpuppet]

18. I'm feeling especially old this morning....

... so reminding me about how many years have gone by is not helping. LOL! Wish I were 20 years younger. I'd be kicking some ass.

[KitSileya]

20. I know! I am feeling old too.

But as I was saying to seabeyond, thinking about how it felt to lose the Nutforums is helping me detach from DU. If Skinner saw what was said to me (and not hidden) when a certain poster was on hold, and let them back anyway, I will certainly no longer feel safe here. As it is, if something isn't done wrt the rampant misogyny, this place will tear itself apart come the primaries - they'll never accept a female candidate, just like the racists have never accepted President Obama. Well, African-Americans were a minority on DU to begin with (a much smaller minority these days, though, unfortunately) but with women? Especially when we can see how many are disgusted over their behavior right now?

[theHandpuppet]

23. To be perfectly honest...

I don't know if I have the stomach to be around when it's time for the primaries. I well remember what it's been like here in the past. The misogyny and homophobia reach a fever pitch. Trolls descend from everywhere and use the most insulting, degrading language against women candidates and posters. And the bigots who are already here become even more emboldened. In fact, I was searching the other day for an old primary thread which epitomized just how bad it could be but I guess it was too dated for the search engine.

I could probably stick it out but I simply don't trust the jury system anymore. And frankly, I barely know which posters to trust anymore. I know there are times when I've been manipulated and it frustrates me no end. Though I haven't really participated in the objectification threads (I decided some time ago to focus my limited energies on some specific topics) I did read through some of them and learned a lot about a few posters -- knowledge I will take into consideration the next time I'm confronted by them in other threads.

[KitSileya]

26. I totally understand where you're coming from.

I, too, am not looking forward to the primaries for that exact same reason. I have been a member since 2002, but I haven't really been active much until the last 3-4 months. I have 2000 posts, and 350 of them in the last 90 days, because I decided I had to try before I gave the site up. And I have tried to be a reasonable voice, to explain, to be a teacher. But enough is enough. I am starting to have stress reactions which are partly caused by DU. I don't really need this in my life. But I'm giving Skinner a chance to explain himself, because I feel that is fair. We'll see how that goes.

[question everything]

29. Interesting. I've never known this

but then, I know of only one hidden post..

Some on DU are really ruthless, which is a shame. I wonder whether they can find which jurors tend to vote to hide on certain members.

[awoke_in_2003]

6. Off to the greatest...

equal rights for all.

[theHandpuppet]

8. Don't have an ignore list

Never thought it was a good idea to have one, for the reasons you've explained very well.

[CTyankee]

11. I have never used the Ignore option except to exercise it on my own. You make an excellent point.

I never trash things. I walk away. But I ALWAYS agree to serve on juries.

Please re-think the Ignore button! This is important!

[theHandpuppet]

14. I've never volunteered to serve on juries

I probably should but there are chunks of time that I am not available to DU. I'd feel guilty about accepting a responsibility I couldn't fulfill.

[KitSileya]

17. Oh, jury duty is short term.

It isn't something you need to do all the time. If you happen to be online and not on the poster's blacklist, you'll get a blue pop-up like the yellow one for DU mail, and you can choose either to take part or decline. The job usually takes 5 minutes or less, depending on the length of the sub thread the post you're adjudicating is in (apparently some people only read the post itself - I like to get the context too) and then you vote, choosing whether to leave an explanation or not.

It's more like impromptu street trials than formal things, and you're only asked if you happen to be in the "vicinity", i.e., if you're online when they need 6 jurors, and your chance at being picked then is in your profile as somewhere between 100% (star member, more than 2000 posts, no current hides) to 0%.

[Tanuki]

12. So if you have someone on ignore and then one of their posts is alerted, does that mean

you are automatically excluded from the jury pool? I don't know much about it. Even though I have been a member here for over 10 years, I never once put anyone on ignore until this past week, when the bullying and misogyny got the better of me. I put several on ignore, so I will rethink that if it means I am tipping the jury in their favor by doing so.

[Sheldon Cooper]

16. I'm not sure about that.

I don't think the ignore list means much when it comes to hiding. As I understand it, if I have someone on ignore, I can't jury their posts. If they have me on ignore but I'm not ignoring them, I can still jury their posts (unless I'm on their blacklist).

So, can you run this past me again? What am I missing?

[DURHAM D]

21. Start with your Jury black list.

Is it full? I just checked mine and the first three on the list are "internet women".

I do not and never had anyone on Ignore because I want to be on their juries.

If you have MRAers on your Ignore list you are not in their jury pool. I guarantee you that not a single MRAer has you on their Ignore list because they want the opportunity to judge you.

[Sheldon Cooper]

22. Hmmm I only have five spaces and they are filled with the usual suspects.

I'm not taking anyone off of Ignore though. I don't care if any of those jagoffs sit in judgement of me. This place doesn't have the ability to make me feel ashamed, which is apparently what the hidden posts are supposed to cause. Getting banned or timed out or whatever the latest version of the Naughty Chair consists of won't impact my life in the least.

[DURHAM D]

25. LOL

I agree that they can not impact my life but I would like to impact theirs.

[BainsBane]

30. Your hide was the one that prompted this OP

I couldn't see why that should be 5-1 and the OP 1-5, except for the fact one was by a feminist and the other wasn't.

[JustAnotherGen]

19. I'm seeing that too

And we have a silent group of men at DU - they have been pretty quiet on the open threads - but have rec'd some threads back here - that reached out to me to help me find some serious serious hypocrisy in the arguments being made lately.

We aren't alone - and the men that do post in HOF and who are vocal in writing supportive of women aren't alone either.

[ismnotwasm]

24. I just started using ignore

I have 4 people on it-- one a prolific poster whom I think is caver troll, the other three just a waste of air. I do trash a lot of threads though

[boston bean]

27. trashing it means you won't serve on a jury.

also, ignoring persons makes you ineligible for their juries.

I understand the reason one wants to do it, but with the way the system is, it's self defeating.

I'm not sure, but rewarding them by placing the worst on ignore, just allows it to fester. That's my take on it anyhow.

[BainsBane]

32. I hadn't realized that

Now I see why I wasn't on juries for nearly two weeks. I've cleaned out my trash can of posts from the past two weeks and won't use it in the future.

[petronius]

33. That's not actually true about trashed threads - I get called to juries in threads

I've trashed on a regular basis. The things that exclude you from a jury are:

Members are excluded from serving if:

they have their "Willingness to serve on a DU Jury" option set to "Unwilling"
they are ignoring the alerted member
they are blocking DU mail from the alerted member
they have replied to the alerted member within the last 24 hours
they have alerted on the alerted member within the last 24 hours
they have posted in the thread which contains the alerted post
they are on the alerted member's Jury Blacklist

I suspect that it's posting in threads and having replied to the alerted-on poster that keep people out of juries on some of these uglier and higher-volume topics...

[DURHAM D]

35. I hope everyone reads this carefully.

I try not to post in the flaming misogyny threads hoping I will get called to jury.

[BainsBane]

36. Oh, really?

Okay.

[MadrasT]

37. I also have been called to jury on threads I have trashed.

Thanks for posting the specifics.

[boston bean]

42. Are you absolutely sure about that.

If you trash a group, you can't serve on a jury in that group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1013&pid=1563

[MadrasT]

45. I am not absolutely sure about anything.

And yes, if you trash a group you can't serve on a jury it that group. that is why I trashed I/P. I kept getting called to juries in I/P and I don't understand the issues, so never felt like I could be a good juror. Same with the Gungeon. I just do. not. care. about all the arguing about guns, so I trashed it -- not because I had a hard time staying out of the group, but because I was sick of getting called to jury on gungeoneers arguing amongst themselves.

But I *believe* I have been called to be a juror on individual threads I have trashed in GD. I could be wrong.

(And now I wonder if you trash something via keyword if you are in or out of the jury pool? I have a metric fuckton of keyword trashing set up in my profile.)

[boston bean]

44. I don't believe that list is up to date.

because if you trash a group, you don't get called for jury duties.

I am almost positive that trashing a thread also makes it so you can't serve on a jury in that thread.

Are you absolutely sure?

[petronius]

54. I am sure about trashed threads, yes (it has even happened to me since

posting this here). Whether it's actually supposed to work like that I don't know, but I've been trashing more threads than usual lately and it's always a surprise to get called into a hundreds-post flame-fest that I didn't even know existed...

[DLevine]

57. It happened to me a few weeks ago.

I served on a jury for a thread I had trashed. I was really surprised.

[hlthe2b]

63. yes, indeed. I think that may be why a lot of this crap gets by juries...

Not just that HOF group uses ignore and trash threads a lot, but so too the average DUer.. Which calls into question exactly who is serving on these juries and how representative of all DU posters is it? I know what I think to be the answer...

[riqster]

28. I have one person on Ignore, and 3 or 4 on the Jury blacklist.

I almost always default to having more information over comfort. You raise an interesting point about possible unintended consequences of using these tools.

Oh, and I am indeed a strong supporter of feminism, here and in my AFK life.

[Tuesday Afternoon]

31. I hate to tell you this but, it is already on the wane.

It was the topic du jour and DU3 is now moving on. DU3 and DU has always ebbed and flowed.

[Squinch]

34. Awwwww....

...but that means I would have to read what they SAY! Ugh!

...but you are probably right.

I will seriously think about this.

But ugh.

[TDale313]

38. So, I cleared my ignore list after this post...

Can I just say... Wow. We'll see how long I can last without putting some of these posters on ignore again. I did it cause I'd hoped maybe I could help, either juries or responding. Not sure it'll do much beside frustrating me

[BainsBane]

39. Perhaps you can ignore them without using the list?

because if you do respond to them, you can't serve as a jury on one of their posts that day.

[TDale313]

40. Yeah, makes sense

May also be best for my blood pressure, too

[BainsBane]

41. I need to take my own advice

Cause my blood pressure is rising by the minute.

[boston bean]

43. It's tough, but the way this is set up

you don't want to leave your sisters in the lurch. And voluntarily give up a mechanism that gives each of us a small voice.

[DURHAM D]

46. I think understanding how we diminish our own jury pool

is really really important. I am glad to see this conversation.

The MRAers and regular Trolls constantly state that the solution to not seeing those OPs and responses that cause us stress is to trash the thread. They know exactly what they are doing.

[MadrasT]

48. But looking on the bright side...

It works both ways -- all those people who crow about having trashed this group are out of the jury pool on threads posted here.

[DURHAM D]

56. I don't believe them. nt

[MadrasT]

60. Perhaps, but (runs off to check...) 149 people *have* trashed this group.

That's a significant number of people eliminated from the jury pool.

[RBStevens]

62. Why would anybody trash this group?

What's so *offensive* about it? I'm serious.

[nomorenomore08]

68. I don't see what's so offensive either. I've posted extensively in this Group

and have always had a good experience with it. 95% of the shit people say about HoF has no resemblance to reality - I really have to wonder where they pull these ideas from, other than their own asses.

[boston bean]

49. I'm questioning myself now, but I always thought that if

one trashed anything it prevented one from serving on a jury for it.

I know and proved up above that Petronius is wrong about the only things limiting one from a jury pool. Because if you trash a group, you cannot serve on juries in that group.

Why would it be any different for other trashes... I assume if one trashes, it is hidden from them and the admin thinks you don't ever want to be aware of it.

[MadrasT]

50. Logically what you are saying makes sense as a "should be" model.

Reality would depend on how Elad programmed jury pool selection.

[DURHAM D]

51. I guess it is time for a direct question in ATA.

We need to get some guy to post it however.

[boston bean]

52. You know. It's amazing to me

and I don't mean any offense to bjorn, who I admire and am grateful to.

But to see him get a five paragraph polite, non sarcastic, real dialogue when women have been bringing up these questions for over two years, is really frustrating. That is not a reflection on bjorn obviously. I am forever happy he spoke up. But shit..

[DURHAM D]

55. I know.

The irony did not escape me and others I PMed with.

But at this point I will gladly take it and be grateful for the break-through if it does turn out to be a learning/teachable moment.

I just wish the Admin would protect DU as an actual Safe Haven for Democrats, Liberals and Progressives instead of marginalizing women and other minorities into our own space to lick our wounds.

Many years ago when my community started having Gay Film Festivals I kept saying that I look forward to the day we no longer need to have our own events because we are part of the greater culture. I am happy to say that many of these events are no longer held due to lack of interest.

[DLevine]

58. I noticed that. It's a shame. nt

[MadrasT]

59. I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

[RBStevens]

61. I spent some time yesterday going throuth the ATA

(curious as to what it was having seen it mentioned in one of the threads here) and I do have to say that it was not lost on me either.

Actually it's pretty damn glaring. I think it's damn insulting too.

[hlthe2b]

65. Noted as well...

and agree totally.

[hlthe2b]

64. Boy, do you and I think alike... I was just about to post that in response...

sigh....

[DURHAM D]

66. Be careful.

Someone will think I am your sock.

[hlthe2b]

67. Ha! Yeah, that has to be coming...

[TDale313]

53. I'm glad to see the discussion, too

I hadn't really even thought about it before this thread. Definitely made me think and make some changes.