9 Portraits of Butch Women Proving "Masculinity is a Trait, Not a Gender"

[redqueen]

In an effort to both allocate space for and document the existence of masculine women, photographer Meg Allen created a powerful series of portraits for an exhibit at Cafe Gabriela in Oakland, Calif.

Entitled BUTCH, Allen's series not only represents genderqueer women for a broader, heteronormative audience, but reaffirms butch identity within the queer community at a time when "butch flight," or gender transitioning, is arguably becoming more and more commonplace. It is, as Allen says on her website, "an homage to the bull-daggers and female husbands before me, and to the young studs, gender queers and bois who continue to bloom into the present."

Pioneering queer theorist and historian Gayle Rubin asserted in her 1992 essay "Of Calamites and Kings: Reflections on Butch, Gender, and Boundaries" that butch identity, the interplay "of masculine traits with a female anatomy," varies depending upon the individual embodying that identity and each individual’s socio-economic, racial and ethnic reality "to adopt and transmute the many available codes of masculinity."

Even the New Statesman asked, "Do we need a better word for 'butch'?" proposing that "masculine-of-center" be used in lieu of the maligned, culturally "irrelevant" term. But do we really need to flee from the "butch label"? Through her photographs, Allen has attempted to get the heart of "what a (lesbian looks) like now."

...









http://www.policymic.com/articles/86527/9-portraits-of-butch-women-proving-masculinity-is-a-trait-not-a-gender

Love these pics.


Side issue: In the New Statesman article, someone is quoted as saying that new words for butch are "aggressive" and "dominant". Do I even need to begin to explain how these terms reinforce the hierarchical structure of patriarchy?

[Tuesday Afternoon]

1. Gorgeous! Well executed portriats of Beautiful Butch Women. Thanks, redqueen!

[kimbutgar]

2. I took a class and one of the students was a butch

At first I thought she was a handsome guy but the discovered he was a she. This woman was born that way. As I got to know her better I treated her like a man. But it was confusing at first.

[TeeYiYi]

3. ...

TYY

[TeeYiYi]

4. redqueen…

...it appears that you've abandoned your OP…

…a blog exposé that challenges lesbian masculine gender identity by referring to it as simply a 'trait,' replete with photographs and stereotypes; whitewashed to appeal to "a broader, heteronormative audience" and posted smack dab in the middle of HOF. A bold move.

I was hoping that in your subsequent contributions to this thread, you might shed light on the intent behind posting a 'butch women' photo essay in HOF and highlight how it falls within the HOF statement of purpose.

As it stands, this OP feels more like an exercise in patronizing voyeurism than a legitimate opportunity for feminist discussion as it relates to the history of feminism.

I believe you when you say that you love the images you posted. Maybe you could elaborate on the 'why' of that proclamation.

You also state that "aggressive" and "dominant" are words that have been posited as replacement words for "butch." Perhaps you could weigh in on where this supposed suggestion is coming from and whether or not anyone is taking it seriously.

To reiterate, you posted a mouthful and then left it to languish. If there's a point to your OP, I wish you'd expound on it.

TYY

[seabeyond]

5. it was posted in here before.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/125541092

awesome pictures of women being who they are in their own empowerment. no more or less.

we do that often in this forum.

[redqueen]

7. Thanks sea...

Sorry that I missed that. I sure could have done without that nasty, accusatory bullshit.

Ism must have posted that after I was triggered by seeing people laughing about women being raped in porn and had to back away from this place for a bit.

[seabeyond]

8. i think this post is about some men trying to start more shit in gd. and ya... i hear ya. nt

[TeeYiYi]

14. Thank you, seabeyond...

re: "awesome pictures of women being who they are in their own empowerment. no more or less."

Your response is appreciated.

TYY

[seabeyond]

15. yiyi....

Last edited Mon Apr 7, 2014, 02:31 PM - Edit history (1)

i do not know if your thought, went in the direction it did, because of the GD thread. and take note, that thread is filled with men that actively, and with joy... make our lives hell.

specifically calling hof out, included.

i read your post that was self deleted. i had appreciated a little of truth about the issue, and what was going on with this thread. at least remembering. but... it was not all that it was. and we do not carry the shit that is periodically flung at us, too see if it will stick.

the purpose of this antagonism is a kick off du, permantly. lets at least call it what it is. not cause there is ANY relevance to it was so ever.

it is like the worst... here.

and we will not, ... will not, play in that shit.

here and now, i put in a toe. i get that. and that is as far as it goes. but, i did appreciate what you said in that thread.

and... if your interest in this thread had NOTHING to do with the thread in GD. disregard. lol

bah hahahah

i am tellin you.

you.... have a good day. i am on my way out, myself, to enjoy a beautiful spring day.

[TeeYiYi]

16. sea...

I deleted my post in that other thread because I didn't like the direction it was headed and I didn't want to encourage it or to be a part of it by having someone respond to my comment. I just wanted it to drop off the page.

My interest in this OP was not intentionally connected to that other thread. I ran across it as an indirect result of researching the old feminist/lgbt trans-war posts from a couple of years ago. I was surprised to see it here and hoped there was no connection, so I waited to see what it was all about…

I now believe that this OP was made in good faith. I'm still a little unclear how the subject matter fits the profile of HOF but that's neither here nor there.

Thanks for your thoughtful posts. Enjoy this beautiful Spring weather.

TYY

[seabeyond]

17. thanks for the info... loves my clarifications so i understand. nt

[redqueen]

6. Abandoned? WTF? It's not a person.

No one asked any questions. What "subsequent contributions" were you expecting?

Your popcorn smiley sure didn't deserve a response.

blog exposé that challenges lesbian masculine gender identity by referring to it as simply a 'trait,' replete with photographs and stereotypes; whitewashed to appeal to "a broader, heteronormative audience" and posted smack dab in the middle of HOF. A bold move.

Again:
What "stereotypes" are you referring to?
How are they "whitewashed"?
How is posting this a "bold move"?

As it stands, this OP feels more like an exercise in patronizing voyeurism than a legitimate opportunity for feminist discussion as it relates to the history of feminism.

Thanks for your opinion, but based on your comments so far it seems to me that it is rooted in your own apparent bias regarding this group.

I believe you when you say that you love the images you posted. Maybe you could elaborate on the 'why' of that proclamation.

Sure, I'm totally inclined to share my personal feelings about butch women with you. Not.

You also state that "aggressive" and "dominant" are words that have been posited as replacement words for "butch." Perhaps you could weigh in on where this supposed suggestion is coming from and whether or not anyone is taking it seriously.

It's in the linked piece. You're free to read more about it.

I haven't personally conducted any surveys to determine whether anyone is taking it seriously.

To reiterate, you posted a mouthful and then left it to languish. If there's a point to your OP, I wish you'd expound on it.

And I wish you hadn't made your first entry in this thread a fucking popcorn smiley. Maybe then I might take you seriously or care about what you wish would happen.

[TeeYiYi]

9. What is your interest…

…in "what a (lesbian looks) like now?" As a gay woman, I was unclear as to the intent behind your post; multiple images of genderqueer women, any one of whom could be me.

Your only explanation for posting a photo array of butch women pertains to a quote from the article, that you claimed would "reinforce the hierarchical structure of patriarchy." I expected to see a constructive discussion regarding your claim. Giving you the benefit of the doubt, I waited to see if your post would begin to make sense.

Quite honestly, redqueen, I was hoping that your OP came from a place of sincerity and sensitivity. Now, after reading your vicious response to me, I realize that was not the case. Your hit and run, image-heavy curiosity piece about butch women appears to be nothing more than the HOF version of 'Sunday LOLcats.'

TYY

[redqueen]

10. What a steaming load.

You start off with the popcorn smiley, proceed to ignore all my questions and then have the nerve to say you hoped for sincerity from ME?

The popcorn smiley post, followed by accusations, followed by a refusal to answer questions and MORE accusations.

Gee, where have I seen those tactics before.

You could have made your first post one which asked about the information you now claim to be interested in. Oh puzzlement of puzzlements... why on earth would someone not simply discuss an issue they claim to he interested in, and instead post a fucking popcorn smiley, followed up by accusations?



And no, the comment at the end was NOT my "only interest" in posting this. Fucking DUH. If that had been my focus I would have linked the fucking New Statesman article.

You seem to think your disingenuousness is invisible. It isn't.

[TeeYiYi]

12. Wow…

Like I said… Vicious. I don't even know how to respond to this level of unbridled vitriol.

You be sure to have yourself a really nice day, redqueen.

TYY

[ismnotwasm]

11. It has to do with gendered expectations.

Women who are Gay, who do not conform to societal standard of 'what a woman should look like' are extremely important when deconstructing gender. As pointed out, I also posted an OP on Butch women, who made their own comments on their experience.

I'm sorry if you feel exploited, but that is not the intent. Collectively HOF is trying to be inclusive, and promote intersectionality, rather than just "leaning in" posts. We want a wide variety of input and articles, not just ones from Ms. Magazine. RedQueen also has posted from an incredible Tumbler that is for Radical Trans feminists.

There is no one size fits all here.

[TeeYiYi]

13. Thank you for your response...

I appreciate it.

TYY

[MadrasT]

18. As a genderqueer person, I find your "Sunday LOLcats" remark offensive.

I see people in these photos I admire and respect... other members of my tribe who look at society's gender expectations and go "fuck you society, I gotta be me and me is not soft, feminine, and pink."

The more people who openly reject society's prescriptive nonsense about binary gender and strict rules and expectations that go along with that limited (and limiting) world view, the easier it becomes for people like me to be accepted as a normal variation of gender expression and not a fucking outcast freak.

I also feel your popcorn smilie was inappropriate. Gender expression is not a fucking joke to me, nor is it a source of mindless entertainment.

[TeeYiYi]

19. Well, MadrasT…

…as someone who also identifies as genderqueer, I find myself fascinated that you would openly defend this charade by redqueen. The very headline challenges the concept of transgender by calling it a trait. Redqueen even goes so far as to refer to gender issues as "bullcrap" on iverglas' blog:

Posted by reallyquiet on June 5, 2012, 10:50 am, in reply to "Re: An aside:"
Not even in the same universe.

Shouldn't we dismantle patriarchy and eliminate the 'gender' bullcrap first, and *then* address the issues resulting from whatever it is that makes people think they were born with the wrong sex organs?

http://members.boardhost.com/duckies/msg/1338907811.html

So, really, could redqueen's disdain for transgender issues be any more transparent? But let's get back to you, MadrasT.

You refer to these butch women as members of your tribe and yet I'm willing to bet money that every single one of them is sexually attracted to women; something that makes them a little less 'your tribe' since you sleep with men.

I would even go so far as to guess that a few of them are in the process of transitioning, hormonally and/or surgically; something that you don't personally approve of, do you, MadrasT?

In fact, you believe that transgender people who opt for hormones and/or surgery have psychological problems. Something "your tribe" would probably throw you off the island for, if they heard you say it out loud.

Posted by Misstee on June 5, 2012, 10:55 am, in reply to "Re: An aside:"

"Shouldn't we dismantle patriarchy and eliminate the 'gender' bullcrap first, and *then* address the issues resulting from whatever it is that makes people think they were born with the wrong sex organs?"

Yes a thousand times yes.

This train is moving too far, too fast.

I think a huge part of "transgender" issues are psychological.

Body dysphoria is a psychological problem, not a medical problem to be "corrected" with surgery and hormones.

As inveigle has said, if people want to adopt social gender roles that they think belong to the "opposite" sex, have a party. I think it is COOL!

But when it gets to physically altering your body, I start to have big problems with it.

And then to talk about doing it to CHILDREN?

Makes me extremely uncomfortable. Extremely.

http://members.boardhost.com/duckies/msg/1338908111.html

~and~

Posted by Misstee on June 5, 2012, 2:14 pm

I have always been a vocal, active supporter of "transgender rights" because I passionately support everyone having the freedom to break free from societally imposed gender roles.

I was basically raised nongendered and always did whatever the hell I wanted to do, and it suits me fine.

So I think everyone should do whatever the hell suits them, with no regard to what sex they are.

But this business of transgender people taking hormones and undergoing surgeries to alter their bodies to fit what they think the gender in their head is... I have always felt queasy about that.

Now I have decided I am dead set against it.

I think actual females getting breast implants and labia enhancing surgeries and lip enhancements is beyond f*cking ridiculous.

So there is no way I can support people taking drugs and mutilating their bodies to fit some notion of being "the wrong sex".

I am still thinking about this. My position evolves over time.

Maybe my idea that "passionately supporting everyone having the freedom to break free from societally imposed gender roles" just means I am (gasp) an actual feminist, but never knew it???

http://members.boardhost.com/duckies/msg/1338920057.html

Kinda' makes me question your spot under the transgender umbrella. Quite frankly, I'm ready to take your umbrella away.

So, let's get back to the purpose behind posting pictures of butch women in various stages of transgender transition, in the HoF group. Why do YOU think she posted it , "Misstee?"

I agree with you, that gender "expression" is not a "fucking joke" or "a source of mindless entertainment." You're actually making my point for me.

Maybe you can help me to understand why two people who have serious issues with the very definition of transgender, would feel that it would be copacetic to post this OP; and just maybe, while you're at it, you can explain how it fits within the HoF Statement of Purpose.

Everyone knows that the popcorn smilie means you're waiting to see how a thread is going to roll out, before commenting. In fact, I waited almost 6 hours for clarification.

After reading some of the comments at DUckies, I think my comparison to LOLcats is a perfect fit. It was never meant as anything more than a curiosity piece.

TYY

[ismnotwasm]

20. Why are you here?

Clearly you are angry--which can have productive power, but I see nothing productive.

I don't know anything about blog posts from some blog from a couple of years ago. Clarifying your anger would be helpful.


And I think this covers your SOP question

The History of Feminism group serves as a safe haven to discuss, and learn the history of feminism. Apply the lessons of historical and modern day feminist struggles to current issues and events that impact women. This group will also serve as safe haven for women (and supporters of feminism) to openly and honestly discuss and learn how the patriarchy affects women individually and collectively.

Ok I read through that blog. I get it. Never mind.

[MadrasT]

21. Dear TeeYiYi

Gender identity is highly personal. It is not my job - and I have no right - to have an opinion about other people's gender identites. It is literally none of my fucking business. As is the same for Other People's sexuality.

My gender identity and sexuality are also not anyone's business but my own.

I have no desire to debate, defend, or discuss this issue further.

None. Of. My. Business.

I have utmost respect and support for everyone's unique method of gender expression. It is a highly personal issue best left up to each individual and no one should ever be challenged about this by others - ESPECIALLY strangers on the internet - about these matters.

I wish you well and bid you a peaceful night.

[redqueen]

22. "in various stages of transgender transition"?

What is your evidence for declaring this about these women?

Your excuse for your antagonistic replies in this thread does not hold water.

For your information (and BTW, IMO you don't deserve an explanation but this last post with your 'these women are becoming men!!!' bullshit has had the desired effect of baiting me, well done) I have always found butch women beautiful. And I'm fucking sick of always seeing the same representation in the media, and the diversity of these beautiful women made me want to share these awesome pictures.

Thanks ever so much for shitting all over the thread with your quest to flamebait and re-ignite old hostilities.

And just FYI, your views on gender aren't shared by everyone, there are gender-critical trans women so maybe you should go attack them, many are very willing to engage in these issues with you, issues which you apparently see in black and white. Again I'm very curious why you labeled all these women as transgender.

Did you even bother to read the thing? These are butch women. They are lesbians. I didn't see any indication that any of them identify as straight trans men. I hope you have the integrity to at least answer one fucking question - provide your evidence for labeling these women that way. And yeah apparently you didn't bother to spend any time reading the piece you're freaking out about - I didn't make up the "gender is a trait" comment - its a fucking quote.

For you to come in here and decide they're all trans, and that I'm making some "bold move" by sharing these gorgeous pictures - words fail.

Thanks ever so much for your valued participation in this group. It's been enlightening.

[MadrasT]

23. THANK YOU MY SISTER REDQUEEN

For saying what I wanted to say but didn't have the energy.

I thought the whole fucking point was that female body plus "masculine" presentation does not always have to mean "this person identifies as transgender".



It is like a goddamn minefield in here and THIS genderqueer human is fucking sick of this shit.

I adore butch women who own it.

It feels like gender noncomforming people who have no desire to transition are being severely dissed here and that does not seem OK to me.

[redqueen]

24. I'm glad you called out that "Sunday LOLcats" shit.

That had me seeing red.

Butch women are butch women. Not trans men. They are two different types of people entirely. Slapping that label on them because they don't conform to the rules society still seems to absolutely fucking adore about gender is fucking offensive as hell.

[seabeyond]

25. ok. my story, cause i love stories and i do not think i am steppin on any toes.

i met up with a butch woman in colorado springs, three days of so much fuggin' fun, i want more. lets see if i can remember what she said. thinking, thinking, .... hm. fug. dike was in there, too. so, like a butch dike. lol

NOW

i would never define another person in that manner. but, it was not me defining the person, so cool.

i was told ahead of time. well.... maybe that was good, but not for the reason she may be thinking.

her appearance struck, in all the package she was. and ya. there was a gorgeous, especially in the dimples. and she knew it. and i swear, she was using it. we welcomed another women into the group for booze and giggles. a friend of the host of the city. she new NOTHING about us, and we knew nothing about her, but that hardly mattered. to any of us. she was absolutely struck by the awesome of that butch dike. that person, that part of the person, in the power, awesome, beauty that is being presented. when i was looking at the pictures in your OP, i could so see her face in these pictures. in all her confidence in who she is. straight at the camera.

i think that is the feel i came off with. and it was simply awesomely fun.

it just does not matter how society defines us... it just does not. we see (oh fuck) beyond all that garbage.

[TeeYiYi]

29. They ARE all transgender…

You might want to investigate the definition of "transgender."

That was the point of the photo essay on butch women that you linked to; tombois, diesel dykes, drag kings, he-shes, etc. All labels for masculine women whose gender identity and outward expression doesn't match the genetic sex they were assigned at birth; nor does it match society's opinion of what they should look like, based on traditional binary gender roles and stereotypes.

"an homage to the bull-daggers and female husbands before me, and to the young studs, gender queers and bois who continue to bloom into the present."

http://www.policymic.com/articles/86527/9-portraits-of-butch-women-proving-masculinity-is-a-trait-not-a-gender

I suggested that a few of them might actually be in the process of transitioning, which is pretty common in the butch lesbian community.

"I would even go so far as to guess that a few of them are in the process of transitioning, hormonally and/or surgically"

I based my opinion on the women who have obviously got their breasts bound and at least one who is likely taking steroids. Another looks like she may have had a breast reduction. This is all clearly conjecture, based on personal experience, since the information provided is inadequate to confirm or deny my suggestion.

Nowhere did I say that all of these women are in the process of transitioning through surgical or hormonal means.

You seem to be saying that you're comfortable with butch women as long as they're not taking hormones or considering sexual reassignment surgery. That's a pretty tall order and not really fair to these women that you say you admire. Their inner identity struggles are outside your purview.

The diversity of butch women is vast and covers a broad spectrum. This photo project is an attempt to make masculine women a little less scary to straight people while reaffirming their right to exist within the gay community. Maybe they'll stop feeling the need to alter their bodies when society, as a whole, can begin to accept them for who they are. Sadly, that day is a long way off.

TYY

[redqueen]

30. Yeah, no. You don't get to slap whatever label you like on someone else.

They do identify as butch. That's what we know.

They may also identify as trans, or queer, or whatever else, but YOU don't get to do that for them. So maybe you might want to read up some.

No matter how accurate your fristian diagnoses regarding hormones might be, you don't get to do that. And women don't only wear binders / minimizers if they identify as trans. You sure are fond of making assumptions.

You seem to be saying that you're comfortable with butch women as long as they're not taking hormones or considering sexual reassignment surgery.

And once again your assumptions fail so fucking hard.

[TeeYiYi]

31. Did you even bother...

...to look up the definition of "transgender?"

I didn't think so.

TYY

[redqueen]

33. Oh I'm already quite familiar with it.

Like I said, go read up. Be sure to seek out the parts about how people don't get to slap labels on others.

To recap: You don't know if any of them are in the process of transitioning, you don't know if they identify as trans, and you don't know if any of them are on hormones.

Good luck and have a wonderful weekend. I'm so done.

[TeeYiYi]

35. ...

Yeah, the scars from 'top surgery' on the one woman wasn't a clue.

I'm on my way out the door. You have yourself a nice weekend as well.

TYY

[redqueen]

36. Cause we can just assume it wasn't a mastectomy.

Right?

Look, I get that you were spoiling for a fight, and your dedication to your goal is ... something. But seriously, just give it up.

I didn't mock these women (you volunteered that in an effort to smear me, with your ugly, shitty "Sunday LOLcats" accusation). I never speculated as to their gender identity, but for some reason you think that is SUPER FUCKING IMPORTANT to do.

I just think they're beautiful, and that these pictures captured that beauty so well.

So again I'd like to thank you for shitting all over the thread in your quest to stir up shit. Really.

[TeeYiYi]

37. There's a HUGE difference...

...between a mastectomy and 'top surgery.' But, I did say my opinions were conjecture, so, there is that.

Actually, you ARE mocking them by posting this OP and then denying them the right to their identity because it makes you uncomfortable.

TYY

[Shivering Jemmy]

26. But doesn't the term Butch itself

Reinforce patriarchal and hierarchical norms?

Butch is derived from a male nickname for Burt, but has always had connotations of physical dominance and tough/guyism.

[seabeyond]

27. i do not know. but, i think lesbian does today. and i was told in no uncertain terms why lesbian

is so important to the lesbian community.

i am pissed what men have done with the word lesbian in their arrogance of feeling the need to OWN womens sexuality at all cost.... including when it has nothing to do with them. say the word and SOME... a FEW... a CERTAIN man, will.... giggle. giggle. giggle.

eeew

and it is also a word that the lesbian community fought for. if i am getting the explanation correctly. i HAVE TO honor that. and still..... that above. eeew guys. really?

anyway, i look forward to someone else addressing what you are talking about, lol.

[redqueen]

32. Not IMO - and certainly not as definitively as words like "dominant". nt

[seabeyond]

34. "certainly not as definitively as words like "dominant"."

wasnt that a bit of ironic. and why i totally stayed away from that question. thank you redq. exactly. lol

[Shivering Jemmy]

38. You are probably right

Personally I think the words for toughness and strongness we use should better reflect our essential human (and not our gendered) nature...i.e. our position as the scariest, most effective predator ever evolved. So maybe the word butch, given its obvious connection to"butcher" is best after all.

[HockeyMom]

28. My daughter and her wife's wedding picture

I would like to post it from Facebook but I don't know how to eliminate their names. They would not mind at all, but I do not want to post MY surname here on DU. They had a very nice beach wedding. My daughter wore khakis, button down shirt, and a vest. They both were barefoot.