History of Feminism
Related: About this forumMommy vs. media in sexualization of girls: Where are the dads?
An article on AlterNet about sexualization of young girls concluded Mothers are a strong predictor even more than the amount of media consumption alone of whether a girl will regard herself as a sex object. But I couldnt help but wonder: What role do fathers play in their daughters sexualization?
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The new study reported on in the article focused on the media/parent divide within heterosexual, two-parent families. Using a set of two papers dolls one dressed provocatively and the other dressed conservatively, yet fashionably it gauged 60 young girls preferences to appear sexy. The girls, aged 6 through 9, overwhelmingly labeled the sexy doll as the more popular doll the doll theyd most like to look like.
Some researchers argued that if children are predisposed to sexualization by their mothers, they will be more likely to accept and recreate sexual trends glamorized by the media. Others argue that the medias omnipresence will inevitably turn young girls into sexualized creatures; it is up to the mothers to be role models for their daughters and help them develop a sense of media literacy if they are to escape the trend of sexualization. That sounds like a lot of responsibility to place on one parent alone. Where are the men in this picture?
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But dont fathers behaviors have an equal impact? Fathers who sexualize and objectify women suggest to their daughters that doing so is acceptable by society at large. Fathers who respect women, who refrain from consuming media that represents women as sex objects and little else, are just as valuable as mothers who discourage such objectification.
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I agree very strongly that the way fathers behave and react toward media messages about women, and toward the women in their lives, has a huge impact on the way daughters perceive the importance of and the reasonable expression of their own sexuality.
zzaapp
(531 posts)And yes, I believe firmly that a Father has a huge role in fostering healthy belief systems in their daughters.
It's just a shame that you women are so hard to get along with.
(smile)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)throwing something like that out suggests it is the reverse. why would you do that? it makes no sense. and i hope this isnt a running joke in your house with your two daughters.
i could not agree more.
Come on, I was being clever and irreverent. hence the (smile)
after the comment.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)And take my role VERY seriously.
At the age to 12, BabyGirl !StrongBlackMan could be heard telling her mother, "Mommmm, you know Dad'll never go for me wearing that dress!"
And more than a few pairs of shorts have disappeared when 1StrongBlackMan has done the weekly laundry.
But more, I am very conscious of my treatment of women, particularly Mrs. 1StrongBlackMan, because I know that BabyGirl is watching.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i gotta tell you. this is the most important to me. i feel the same with moms and their sons. and just plain role of parent. our children are in desperate need of us.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)(when she first started talking about her friends "dating" ... what parent allows their child, male or female to "date" at 12?) that I was going to be her first date ... because I wanted her to have something to use as a comparator.
On her 16th Birthday, she had her first date ... with me. We went to dinner (pizza) and a movie (a "chick flick" ... I didn't want to set the bar too high!
But I arrived at the house to "pick her up" at 6:00 p.m., the time I told her that I would arrive.
I walked up to the door and rang the doorbell. And when her Mom answered the door, I introduced myself and engaged her Mom in conversation.
When my daughter entered the room, I stood up and complimented her on her outfit.
When we prepared to leave, I told her Mom where we planned to go and asked what time my date was expected home. I, then, wrote down my cell-phone number and promised that if anything was to change, I would call before changing our plans.
I opened the door for her and led her to the car, opening her door for her.
On the date, I paid for everything ... because I asked her out.
At the end of the date, I walked her to the door, gave her a hug and a peck on the cheek and waited until she was in the house and the door closed before I went back to my car.
When I got back to the house, I told BabyGirl that if the kid that she planned on dating could not or would not treat her as I had, she should keep looking.
She just turned 17 and has not had a one on one date yet. Her reason ... the boys she knows are jerks.
One more thing, it is the agreement between my wife and me, that it is her job to "befriend" BabyGirl's friends; it is my job to put the fear of god in them.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)tears just reading this. because it should all be a part, and so often it is lacking. i had that in my life. to this day, my father at 72, i tell him WHY i have made so many good choices was the example he set, the respect he showed me and women as a whole. i thank him to this day.
the father teaches her daughter her worth. that is a big deal. and you did a wonderful job doing exactly that. all of this is such a value and so special for your daughter. not to mention, for you.
thanks for sharing this with us.
tell your friends who have daughters. help them too.
i had all this with my father. good stuff. to be loved, from the first man in our lives. and know what it is. then we demand, insist, expect nothing less than respect, the rest of our lives.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I can't even imagine... she is so lucky.
Raster
(20,998 posts)Ezlivin
(8,153 posts)It amazes me how widespread the sexualization of girls is in this country.
I accidentally tuned to a show called "Toddlers and Tiaras" and it was a pervert/pedophiles dream. I was aghast; the little girls looked like hookers or strippers. And the mothers seemed to be completely oblivious.
I don't think children are allowed a childhood any longer. The culture seems to want "kidults" or some horrible hybrid.
exboyfil
(17,865 posts)wrote about this. His friend called him and told him to turn the "Glass Teat" on. He was appalled then.
Fathers can do alot by not having images of sexualized women in their homes. Obviously monitoring their daughters dress is also an important factor. My daughters dress modestly, and I am thankful for that. My wife has been a wonderful influence on them as well in this regard. I would actually prefer my daughters compete in academics or speech or music instead of in beauty contests.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and it cannot be stressed enough. it is all the difference in the world for a daughter.
zzaapp
(531 posts)one parent homes.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)No-fault divorce has done wonders for the liberation of women.
zzaapp
(531 posts)It has become quite "cosmopolitan" to poo-poo the two parent home.. as if it weren't beneficial to a child.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)A child can be orphaned early in life and be raised very well by a relative or grandparent.
Too often statistics don't give a complete picture. As to whatever you perceive as cosmopolitan, that's your perception. I perceive that it's popular to demonize parents who don't stay in destructive relationships "for the good of the children".
zzaapp
(531 posts)patrice
(47,992 posts)going wrong, when part of the decisions that go into becoming a single parent should have to do with recognizing that it is in fact possible to be an excellent single parent, and ergo to work on what adaptations in one's parenting are necessary to compensate for the changes and make that commitment to good parenting more actual.
Thinking a lot, lately, about the need for mental health parity in insurance coverages.
FirstLight
(13,366 posts)I left my ex in 04 with a 2 yr old and 7 month old and whatever we could carry...it was a safety issue. After we left I found my ex's stash of CHILD PORN on my computer..as a result of the investigation i had to have my 2 yr old daughter examined by a ME and they stuck a camera up her Ya-hoo while i had to hold her while she screamed...after all the trauma for us...he got a slap on the hand. needless to say I have a restraining order on him till the day I die...and my kids know enough to know he is never to be trusted.
Now, they are 9 & 10 and while they are learning new things about puberty and other words and what they mean, I am not only explaining more to them, but reminding them that THEY set the rules for their own bodies....and I will continue to be frank and as honest as I can for their age...because NOT knowing what's out there is just as dangerous as being over exposed. (my mom never told me what rape really was, never talked to me about sex, I had to figure it out on my own, and not in a good way)
As for demonization of the single parent, i get it all the time and I also feel the empty space for the kids as well, it's heart wrenching...because they know we are 'missing' something too, even though they have never experienced it. My kids want a daddy, because they want me to be happy...they don't understand what that entails (finding a man who treats your kids right is next to impossible, others think you are 'easy' just because you have kids, others run away because they think you are looking for a meal ticket, and someone who showed too much interest in my kids would be suspect too, for obvious reasons).
I hate feeling like we are "less than" because we are survivors...we made it out of hell alive, thankyouverymuch...and people who blame the single parent for not being attentive enough or showing the kids multiple partners is NOT talking about me & mine.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I'm SO glad you made it out. And good on you for talking to your daughters about sex.
They need to hear it from a loving parent and not get their information from school, where most kids seem to have learned from porn.
Your experience shows very well why divorce is so very important and necessary.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i am sorry you and the girls had to go thru what you did.
with my boys.... we talk often about this stuff. ya gotta. cause it is all out there, all the time, right in their face. it is continual. so good you are comfortable with it.
this is the tough part. both parents roles are so important. and the reality is, that is not gonna always happen. i have seen single parents of both gender do an excellent job. and it is a zillion times harder for them.
FirstLight
(13,366 posts)but yes, i talk to both children openly, so the boy will have respect also
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it is very important, but also so they are knowledgeable and aware so they do not find themselves in a bad place. cause there are some messed up girls, along with messed up boys.
it is funny when my boys hear men so often say i hate men, and that i always side with the girls. they know better. it isnt about gender. it is about being the best self we can be, either gender.
edit... i clarify this cause my oldest went thru his first heart break, and it was not all about him. we had to do a lot of talking about girls, too
FirstLight
(13,366 posts)I have an older son from the prev marriage who is 20 this year, and his GF currently is his first longterm sexual relationship, I worry what will happen when they break up
and yes, I agree about the importance of communication on all levels for both sides... My oldest was never forthcoming and I had a much harder time talking to him, so I worry about his emotional maturity a lot. With the younger ones I feel more able to communicate the ups and downs etc, rather than trying *just* to survive (the older one was 12 when we left the bad marriage, so he had the worst of it at that tender age)
My youngest son says now "I'm gonna be a great husband because I grew up with women around me and I know how you think" :0 oh are we in trouble when that charmer gets older! lol
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)or i would hope that we do. i have seen divorced parents do a kick ass job. and i have seen married couples do a poor ass job. parents can make a divorce work.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)A lot depends on how the parents conduct themselves during and after the divorce.
1StrongBlackMan
(31,849 posts)I have plenty of male friends that are actively involved in the lives of their daughters.
But sadly, I have several friends that are not. From what I've seen, in several of the cases where the male is not, it's largely because their ex-SO attempts to use their child as a weapon against them. For example, though they are current in their (non-court mandated) support payments, the ex will withhold the child in an attempt to get more (and in one case, visitation was denied after his refusal to buy his daughter a computer ... she was 3 yrs old.)
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)even preg, i told the girl it is 50% the fathers. she cannot in any way get in the relationship between the two. being very forceful and unaccepting from day one on this issue was good for my niece. she had no support for leaving the father out, or playing games. knowing her job as a mom is to make it work. she was very young. she did not have good role models growing up. i am proud of her.
and to be clear.
there are also men that are not necessarily healthy and the moms role would be to protect the child so i am not saying ALL circumstances.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)And I know it happens all too frequently. A child with a parent like that will have it rough because at least one parent is not a functioning, responsible adult, whether married or divorced.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Is that he was raising his two daughters and had been since they were wee. Their mom was very unstable. He could have given up, he could have let the state have them, but he choose to fight. The girls have an older brother they have never met--he was not my husbands biological son, although he was there since birth-- my husband tried to get custody or visitation, but was unable to. Mom gave him up for adoption.
It's a VERY long story, we ended mending bridges with the mother as best as we were able until her death by suicide. He's a rock, my husband.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)gotta respect that.
it was a very unhealthy environment in the moms home for a number of reasons.....
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)I wish I could have helped her more, understood her better. She had a number of problems, and she pissed me off regularly, but I never understood the pain lived with until long after her death.
I've taught the girls, (women now) that she did the best she could with what she had. Still both of them lived in great fear of becoming 'like' her. The older one is so relieved she is a successful and loving parent, that she wants to emulate my oldest, and be a stay at home Mom.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)i really really wanted to. not only for her, but the health of my niece. and it was not going to be had. at that point, the child has to be thought of. my niece will not even talk to her mom. i have talked to nice about it. i wish i was a fly on the wall to better understand. but she was in La. and we were in Tx. the woman was on drugs... hallucinating, carry a gun around thinking she was being spied on. the daughter had to take care of her. not bathed and teased in school. and so much more. we got her for all the visits, and the summer months and the child would block out that time and we couldnt help her. she just wanted to sit in a safe place. it took a lot of years, and a kidnapping before the courts relented.
we cannot assume the mother is going to automatically do their role. what i did learn from this woman, and another that was not their for her kids. just walked. is some women are not nurturing. that is a tough concept for me. and yet, some men are kick ass nurturers. not a gender thing
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)I was thinking of the events that led to her suicide; she drew no comfort from her daughters, no 'fulfillment' she lost custody because of abuse, she left them when she was tired of being a mother. She returned when she felt like she had more of offer, or more likely, to use the role of 'mother' to support her extremely damaged ego.
When she was at her best, she was good, but her best came in small packets of time. Even then, she managed to cause damage. It was a horrible time, but I still regret her death. I'm probably romantizing what could have been, now that the girls are grown--I don't think she was capable of change when I really think about it, and had she lived, it would still be one shitstorm after another
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)it is all sad. and it is the kids that have to put it in its place so they can get past it.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)both the straight, and the gay one. Dress sexy? My daughter daughter worse nothing but sweats or athletic shorts. The first time she ever wore a dress as at her wedding.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)xmas74
(29,676 posts)She's an athlete, she's in the school band, she's on stage crew, show choir, volunteers in the community, is active in her church youth group and church volunteer group, along with music programs at church.
It's not the activity that matters so much as the involvement. If she's involved and finds a place where she feels comfortable with herself she's more likely to respect herself, instead of attempting to follow the dictates of society.
At least that's what I'm hoping.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the much needed confidence in self and self worth beyond looks. good for you.
xmas74
(29,676 posts)I'm doing my best and that's all I can hope for. I hope she has the confidence needed to get her through everything and realize that the best she can be is herself.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)and then i tell my boys, i gave you what you need. they know. they have been in this home a lifetime. their choices are their own. they get to own it. good or bad. pat on the back or repercussions. it is theirs.
that is all we can do
That's all that's left to do.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)The 14 year old is feeling the pressure to fit in with others at school. Up to now its only been a few girls wearing make up, tweezing brows, and wearing more sexy outfits. Now its starting to be more of them than not. So far so good though.
HockeyMom
(14,337 posts)Boy's Ice Hockey Team. Offense? No. Goalie? No. She played Defense, and yes, checked the BOYS.
It was only the FATHERS of sons, who didn't make the team. who had anything negative to say. Generally, it was very positive experience for her. Wow! A GIRL checking the boys????? They had a couple of female refs which she shared a locker with, and they were VERY supportive. Her male teammates were surprisingly supportive. "If she gets the job done, who cares?"
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)to be enthusiastically supportive. it is a taught behavior to reject athletic performance because of gender.
good for everyone that experienced this.
Scout
(8,624 posts)if momma is "that kind" of woman who believes in sexualizing her daughters at an early age, daddy is probably the "kind of man" who thinks that it's ok to sexualize young girls.
does that make sense??
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I think the author was struck by how the other articles about this story seemed only to focus on mom's influence.
zzaapp
(531 posts)seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the woman keeps her damn mouth shut and allows, looks the other way, pretends. especially in todays world with so much work being done to continually reinforce this has gotta be. like the mom that says she cant stop the teen. media pushing it is the teens job to rebel. that is not true. nor what the teen needs. a LOT of societal conditioning going on today taking us away from our authentic self, validating unhealthy development.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)such crap.
Reviving Ophelia really put all of that into perspective.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)my boys and i would argue with niece that they were conditioning kids they were suppose to roll eyes, fight with parents, be in battle and not listen to parents. disney channel was the biggest culprit in reinforcing that it was a them against us situation. the upside? it allowed my boys and i to discuss that particular conditioning BEFORE they got to the age.
i didnt fight with my parents. i liked my parents. i trusted and listened to my parents. i never felt it was something i needed to do. and parents allowed me my independence and they respected and trusted me back.
it was a win win win.
CrispyQ
(36,533 posts)I don't know where it started, but The Jerry Springer Show comes to mind as the icon of behaving badly in public for a bit of notoriety.
Now, all of the 'reality' competition shows thrive on the drama of conflict. I think we have a generation or two, even, who have this need for drama & conflict in their lives because they see it on TV & in the movies.
Last week I had to go into the bank. I parked & was getting out of the car when another car roared into the spot next to me - well not quite, cuz I had my door open & he was driving so fast he almost rammed me. It was a very young couple & they were screaming at each other - screaming. As soon as the car came to a stop, he turned it off & jumped out. He started pacing beside the car, with extreme animation, all the while screaming - I presumed at her, although he was not looking at her. She, however, remained in the car, but was screaming at him. I could not tell what either was saying as they were screaming over each other.
I hustled into the bank & when I was finished they were still there, now both of them out of the car, & at least yelling, now, instead of screaming. These kids don't have a chance if this is how they deal with conflict.
I had a few fights with my mom, but nothing like what I see in the media today. If I had taken attitude like I see some kids give their folks, well, it's a good thing I liked my room cuz I would have been sequestered there for a very long time without privileges!
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)my middle brother always uses that as a reason his kids fuck up.... continually.
my oldest brother has always been supportive of me saying it does not have to be a battle with teens.
my oldest brother and i never found reasons to rebel. we had parents that allowed us the freedom and independence.
my middle brother is still rebelling at 50. really, it is just a continual of fuck up.....
customerserviceguy
(25,183 posts)Daddy picked who was going to be that girl's momma, and his attitude about her probably reflects in his attitude about his daughter, eventually. Of course, there's the whole Madonna-whore thing out there, where some men view a woman as either a sexual object or a completely non-sexual being, it's not hard to imagine this kind of man seeing his daughter as the latter category.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)chaska
(6,794 posts)All men are predatory to some degree. There would be no reproduction without this instinct/impulse. And that won't change.
Where we went wrong is destruction of the family unit. You can name your own reasons for that. But there is an absolutely crucial role for fathers and we make a huge mistake by allowing ourselves the illusion that they are not important.
Forgive my non-pc-ness here but we need to bring back shame. Shame along with community in general is dying in our society in particular and in the world in general. It needs to return. Single motherhood is not acceptable. Divorce - and marriage - needs to be a lot tougher to get.
Hey Redqueen, s'been a while. Hope you're doing well.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)damn well teach and instill in the daughter the means to protect herself instead of being dependent on the male. and that "All men are predatory to some degree." is tired crap that should just die.
McGee from Muskogee
(12 posts)"All men are predatory to some degree." is tired crap that should just die."
LOL, that's funny, considering 99% of your comments
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)the confidence to take care of herself, without having to have the father and then hubby take care of her? does that mean all men are predators? ridiculous.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)I disagree with you completely.
The idea that men are singularly incapable of frontal lobe activity which overrides lizard.brain instinct is balderdash. Women don't sleep with every rich man they can entice into bed, and the reason why is socialization. We do boys a disservice when we socialize them to believe that they are expected to behave like predators.
McGee from Muskogee
(12 posts)"The idea that men are singularly incapable of frontal lobe activity which overrides lizard.brain instinct is balderdash."
But not when YOU say it, I take it
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Stop your personal attacks please.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Buhbye now
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)for a jab, we pretty much know they are old timers. duh. lol
redqueen
(115,103 posts)to so desperately cling to outdated ideas, while the world keeps changing around you. They should sympathize with conservatives in that experience.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Glad they caught this one early. What I don't get is why come here? They just look foolish as well as stupid but maybe that's just my perception.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)honesty is not part of the equation.
it is a game, for some.
and it all bottom lines that we dare to challenge status quo. they are ok with the feminist that does not challenge. further, cheers them on. hence, that OP of yours a couple days ago.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)I disagree that "all men" are predatory, and I disagree that what girls need most from their father is to be "protected" from predatory men.
Girls need to learn how to be whole human beings with healthy self respect and confidence, who can stand on their own two feet. What they don't need to learn is how to cower down behind a man for protection from the rest of the awful predatory men.
My dad protected me when he needed to (once in a blue moon) and was I ever glad those few times he felt called to do so. But the most important thing I got from my dad is the knowledge that I am a strong independent PERSON, and not a fragile female that requires male protection to survive.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)and what do you think she'll expect from potential partners? What will she settle for?
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)so right on. can a father teach a daughter anything worse? and isnt he saying he is no better? that is the relationship one wants with daughter?
not only that. give the daughter worth in self and respect, she will be able to ONLY have that in her life. lesson taught. predators rejected.
Response to chaska (Reply #27)
Post removed
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)I haven't noticed that any single person is the font of all wisdom and holds the key to the future.
Do some homework yourself.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)That we have these magnanamous men stopping by to explain stuff to us.
And y'know, protecting us and stuff.
Glory be, hallelujah!
Unbefuckinglievable.
ismnotwasm
(42,014 posts)Irritating, but I did consider the source and was mild in my reply. Some folks are unreachable and unteachable.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)Such people, when they dare to share their true beliefs about women and relationships, serve to swell the ranks of radical feminists.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)At the time, she was about 5'7" and she looked closer to 18 then to 12 (her mom developed early too). And she's very mature, so she carries herself in a manner that suggests she is older.
Anyway, as we we're walking, we kept passing these "little girls" who were dressed as if they were on their way to an after hours club. Full make-up, tight little black dresses, very high heels, the whole deal.
Each time my daughter saw one of them, she nudged me. Neither of us understood what was going on.
Then we reached the far end of the mall. They'd set up a fashion run-way and little girls were walking the cat-walk with some song playing.
My daughter, who loves music says "I know that song!" ... to which I said "Yes, you know every song" (because no matter where we go, she does know the song being played).
And then she said, "but this song is not appropriate, some of those girls aren't even 10 years old!".
The song was ... "Sexy Back" by Justin Timberlake.
And in the seats surrounding the stage, little girls, and their moms. And some of the moms appeared to be dressed for the runway as well. I did not see a single dad.
seabeyond
(110,159 posts)redqueen
(115,103 posts)Those women were just being sexxxy and empowerful!
Surely that's not a bad thing!
Or maybe only single or childless women are allowed to be sexxxy and empowerful.
Seriously though, I agree those women have completely bought into the idea that all their worth is in their looks. And they see nothing wrong with allowing their daughters to follow in those footsteps as early as society deems appropriate.
And as Scout pointed out above, the dads involved likely have no problem with any of it.
JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)And if SHE thinks its inappropriate ... who am I to argue with her.
CrispyQ
(36,533 posts)JoePhilly
(27,787 posts)But she really is special. She sees through so much of the silly stuff. But she is also still a 13 year old girl.
Last night, she just HAD to see One Direction at the Olympics ... had to, had to, had to!!
patrice
(47,992 posts)in their looks and lyrics deliver sex messages, get the goodhousekeeping seal of approval from mom apparently, even with their go/no-go messaging about sexuality and sexual activity. "Oh, this (whoever) is so innocent, no f-bombs, no wild lifestyle, no harm" while the kids are soaking up all of the veiled references. It's all so hypocritical and that fact is not lost on young people, whether they reveal that they have recognized it or not, ... usually not. Is it any wonder that it is possible to hear a teenage girl, some even wearing silver chastity rings, say things about how anything that isn't vaginal penetration isn't sex. Maybe that's just an urban legend, but it doesn't seem far off from possible to me.
redqueen
(115,103 posts)the veiled references and messages.
I remember hearing it in so many songs and even in oldies like Lightning is Striking Again or whatever, and thinking well, I guess my dad is right... Men are just after one thing.