The problem of suffering

[el_bryanto]

When we see a tragedy like we did earlier this week in San Bernidino how do we rationalize it with our idea of God? It is a tricky question; I usually come down on the free will side of the argument; that whatever pain it causes the opportunity to make our own choices is worth the fact that some people will choose to infringe on the choices of others, in both minor and major (and horrific) ways.

Without freedom what meaning would life have?

The types of tragedies I find more difficult are naturals disasters where things just go the wrong direction and end up causing a lot of death or destruction. That's pretty tough for me to deal with.

What do you believe or what does your faith teach?

Bryant

[TexasProgresive]

1. Here's my best

The questions for me are did God's creation include evil from the onset? and if not why does God permit evil to exist?

Whether evil began in the revolt of Lucifer and his fellow angels or in the paradise of Eden we must consider that God did not create evil actively but what God did is to endow the higher creatures with the capacity to act freely in life. It is free will that makes us sentient beings as oppose to being automations.

The "science" of Theodicy is one of the great mysteries of faith. My wife's theory is that we are at a time when people's predilection for good or evil are being distilled to higher proof. That is; the good are becoming more so and the evil as well.

I would say as a Catholic that my thoughts on this are in line with the Church's thought on the question of Theodicy. But I have been wrong before.

[el_bryanto]

8. That's along the lines of what I believe as well

Without two sides, there would be no decision to make. Doing good means nothing if you aren't capable of doing bad.

Bryant

[hrmjustin]

2. I believe that we have free will and make our own choices.

I don't think God decides what happens in this world. It is sometimes hard to hear but I take comfort that God is with us in our suffering.

But it doesn't stop me from asking why Lord. Why do you let suffering happen in this world?
A very human reaction.

[JRLeft]

14. Does God know everything before it happens?

[rug]

15. There is no "before" or "after" when it comes to God.

[JRLeft]

16. That's a cop out. That makes no sense at all.

Either he knows or he doesn't. To say neither is irrational.

[rug]

17. The fact that it makes no sense to you signifies nothing, let alone a cop out.

I suggest you understand the word "infinite" before going into binary mode.

[JRLeft]

18. You admit your just making shit up, because you cannot explain

why your God knows everything ahead of time, but supposedly gives everyone free will.

[rug]

19. Your confusion is hardly an admission on my part.

It didn't take you long to spout the "your God" claptrap.

Read the SoP:

A safe haven that provides opportunities for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief to discuss religious topics and events in a positive and civil manner, with an emphasis on tolerance. Criticisms of individual beliefs or non-belief, or debates about the existence of higher power(s) are not appropriate in this group.

In the meantime, educate yourself:

Any theistic view of the world includes some notion of how God is related to the structures of the universe, including space and time. The question of God's relation to time has generated a great amount of theological and philosophical reflection. The traditional view has been that God is timeless in the sense of being outside time altogether; that is, he exists but does not exist at any point in time and he does not experience temporal succession. What may be the dominant view of philosophers today is that he is temporal but everlasting; that is, God never began to exist and he never will go out of existence. He exists at each moment in time.

http://www.iep.utm.edu/god-time/

[rug]

21. Did you miss this?

Criticisms of individual beliefs or non-belief, or debates about the existence of higher power(s) are not appropriate in this group.

If you want an argument, go to the Religion Group. If you want supportive comfort, go to A&A.

[JRLeft]

22. So you feel threatened, ridiculous.

[rug]

23. Yes, JR, you make me feel so threatened I can scarcely type.

Your arguments have left me cowering in a corner.

As to which of us appears ridiculous, that's evident.

[JRLeft]

24. You're the one insinuating I should be kicked out of the sub forum.

[rug]

26. No, I'm the one telling you directly to follow the SoP.

Whether you do or not is up to you. Free will and all. But I do know what will happen in the future if you don't.

[MADem]

30. I am a host in this group, and you are in violation of the SOP.

I'll give you an opportunity to back it up, or I'll invite you to leave the group.

[LiberalArkie]

25. Results on the hidden post

On Sun Jan 3, 2016, 01:50 PM an alert was sent on the following post:

Still no evidence of God.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1264&pid=7337

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

At what point does this become simple (and hidable) trolling of a safe haven?

I believe that this point has already been reached.

Jurors can make their own judgments on that.

JURY RESULTS

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Sun Jan 3, 2016, 02:00 PM, and the Jury voted 5-2 to HIDE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: If this was in GD I would leave it. It is not, so voted to hide. This person does not wish to abide by the rules set down here, so a hide it is.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Although a bit obnoxious, it doesn't rise to TOS standards. The alerter would be better served to use the ignore feature.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: This is interfaith group meaning that people here express faith not the reason why there should not be faith.
Juror #7 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Off topic for the group.

Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

[rug]

27. Thanks for posting.

[MADem]

29. You can edit your post.

I'll give you some time to do this.

You need to read the Group Statement of Purpose, and adjust your remarks to suit, otherwise, we'll have to show you the door.

To save you the trouble of having to find the SOP, I'll cut/paste it here for you:

Statement of Purpose
A safe haven that provides opportunities for people of all faiths, spiritual leanings and non-belief to discuss religious topics and events in a positive and civil manner, with an emphasis on tolerance. Criticisms of individual beliefs or non-belief, or debates about the existence of higher power(s) are not appropriate in this group.

Telling someone that they're "full of shit" is not on in this venue--that's OK in the Religion Group, but not here.

[kentauros]

28. A strong word of warning from this group host:

This group is not for the "challenging" of believers. I know that might be difficult for some from which to refrain, but we do ask that you at least try to refrain from challenging our beliefs here. Do that in A&A or Religion.

Of course, now that you have a hidden post in this thread, you will come under more scrutiny in the future. Thus my second bit of advice: don't piss off a host.

[gelatinous cube]

31. What about animals?

Do they have free will? Is there original sin for them? Humans suffer because that is the only way to have true free will and choice, and Adam and Eve chose to eat the apple in Eden. However, this is not the case for animals.

[el_bryanto]

32. I don't really have a good answr to that question

I'll have to to think about it; I do love animals, so it's hard to imagine a world without them. But there's no question that some animals suffer pretty badly.

Bryant

[Rebkeh]

3. Free will

I don't know about you but my mom made me clean my own room. This is our mess, not God's.

[el_bryanto]

9. The one response to that one that I see is that our decisions do impact other people

Particularly in the wake of a mass shooting like we saw in San Bernadino (or at the Planned Parenthood clinic the week before) - Gods allowing someone to make these messes hurts a lot more people than just the people making those decisions.

That said I do see your point; and I do belief in the essential nature of free will.

Bryant

[Rebkeh]

11. True, but

Last edited Tue Dec 8, 2015, 06:55 PM - Edit history (1)

The people that make those kinds of decisions didn't just show up like that one day. Violence like that does not occur in a vacuum. It is a product of a global society that we created - we all play a part. This does not mean we are responsible for their decisions, no, but we created this environment in which hate and extremism thrive.

I read somewhere that, according to a former member, the main reason people join ISIS is because they provide a steady paycheck in an unsteady society. That's just one example of what I mean by environment.

So God, I imagine, would say something like - "These people are your siblings, you forgot to care for each other. Killing one hurts me (and you) just as much it would if the tables were turned. I don't have favorites."

He could fix it but then we'd just repeat the same thing, over and over. At what point do we own it?

We have to stop thinking in terms of "them" and start thinking in terms of "us."

That's my take so yeah, we need to clean it up and stop waiting for daddy to swoop in and rescue us from ourselves. I'd rather make him proud by using our free will to stop the madness. The challenge is that it takes a collective and empathy for one another.

[kentauros]

4. Trying to figure out how to put this into words...

Last edited Mon Dec 7, 2015, 03:11 AM - Edit history (1)

We are human. God is not.

We have emotions that run the gamut from the most vile and evil there is to the greatest Love we know how to project and feel.

God is Love.

None of the emotions of humanity can be overlaid onto it. That Love will obliterate any negativity we attempt to lay at its 'feet.' What we do to each other does not mean that God is without compassion. It's just that its compassion and Love for us goes beyond the negativity that we associate with negative events.

Again, I'm not sure how to put this into words, without making it sound trite, or even to just make sense. All too often, I see complaints about how can a loving god "allow" this. My take is that it allows it just as it allows evolution. To tinker with what we do to each other, or what Nature does to us, would be to tinker with our evolution, too. Would anyone call evolution evil? (beyond those who don't believe in it to begin with, that is.)

[el_bryanto]

10. That is an interesting perception.

Of course as a Christian I believe that part of what Jesus Christ accomplished is the opportunity to perfectly understand all of the problems and sins and suffering that we go through - such that Christ is with us wherever we are.

7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit ? or whither shall I flee from thy presence ?

8 If I ascend up into heaven, thou art there: if I make my bed in hell, behold, thou art there.

Psalms 139 -8.

So when we talk about our vile emotions, or our failings and failures or our humanity - Christ has been through that - has comprehended us, and through it comprehends us.

Bryant

[kentauros]

12. Thanks for your thoughts on this.

It's giving me more to think about

And my initial posting stems from various New Agers I like, most of whom are also Christians. So, they're looking at the whole picture from their beliefs (sometimes also connecting with angels and others within that belief) and getting that message of Infinite Love.

I think what I should have also added was that from the Infinite Love of God comes Infinite Compassion, or the infinite capacity of such. In that context, then, there is nothing that humans have done to each other that can't be forgiven.

Now, people will balk at that, but that's just an example of overlaying limited human emotional capacity onto something of an unlimited capacity. It is not saying that humans should not punish people, or that people should do as they please because God will forgive them. That's just taking things to a ridiculous end that isn't reasonable. So long as you live as a human on this planet, you live by humanity's laws. It's only in the next life that your actions in this one will be forgiven.

Of course, one of the greatest things we can do for each other is also to forgive. It's also often one of the hardest things we can do.

[goldent]

5. I'm not sure if my faith teaches me anything about it.

There are some people who try to explain it, but that is just their best guess. I agree with the last pope who said that we simply don't understand it. There are many other things in life that I don't understand.

[NCarolinawoman]

13. Was It Paul that said that trying to look at God is like looking through a glass darkly?

[Tobin S.]

6. If I recall correctly, the main goal of Buddhism is to end human suffering

or to minimize it as much as possible. I can get behind that.

I am not a believer, but I think that even if I were, I would not wait for divine intervention to make the world a better place. We should recognize the fact that there is human suffering on a very large scale on the planet right now and do what we can to make things better. We should take action.

Many Americans are too wrapped up in themselves to think about others. And, granted, it is hard to worry about the welfare of other people when you are having a hard time keeping your own head above water. But we don't have to be wealthy philanthropists or Mother Theresa types to make a difference in the world. Any act of kindness makes the world a better place.

I think one of the best things we can do as Americans for people in other countries is to elect enlightened leaders in our own country.

[kentauros]

7. You made some good points there, Tobin.

Kindness probably is the biggest thing we can do to end suffering, whether man-made or not. And it's easy to do, whether one person at a time or through whole populations.

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

33. For some reason, I missed the OP when it first came up, but I have some thoughts on the matter

God is omnipotent, all good, and all lovingWhy, then, is there suffering and evil in the world?

The problem of evil only arises in a certain set of circumstances. If you believe in two gods, one good and one bad, there is no problem. Evil, in such a system, is as much a part of the show as good. The same is true if you believe that God made the world, not out of nothing, but out of some primeval matter he was stuck with. Then you can blame evil on the sleaziness of the raw materials and get God off the hook. Of course, Jesus hanging on the cross means that God is firmly on the hook. However, the problem still remains

However, Christians believe that YHWH is the only God, that all things are created out of nothing, and that God delights in creation and finds it good. So, why is there evil? Moreover, there is not only evil, there is also “the problem of pain.” Evil is those things which people do which are wrong: Pride, anger, envy, greed, lust, sloth, gluttony, etc. Pain is “the thousand natural shocks our flesh is heir to”: Disease, tornadoes, man-eating-sharks. The standard explanation of evil is that God allows us free will, so that we shall choose the good of our own accord, thus furthering God’s glory. However, we have no real answer to the problem of pain. (One of my favorite science fiction stories is Poul Anderson’s “The Problem of Pain.” In it, Anderson posits a monotheistic alien race with a concept of God that answers the problem of pain, but cannot explain why there is evil.)

Some have said that God allows suffering to teach us lessons and make us better. Thus, we have disappointment to teach us perseverance, pain so we learn to keep our hands out of the fire, unkindness from others to help us grow in charity, and so on. The problem is the "and so on": Famine, to teach us what? Earthquakes, for what reason? Cancer, to improve us how? The whole bleeding, dying, screaming, lying, cheating, rotting carcass of the world to uplift us to what end?

This simply does not work. For a few great souls, poverty may be a blessing; for everyone else, it is a curse. Now and then, a terminal disease ennobles, most of the time, it is just rotten. God as a teacher who uses such methods makes him the warden of the worst run penitentiary of all. T. S. Eliot described this view in his poem "East Coker":

The whole earth is our hospital
Endowed by the ruined millionaire,
Wherein, if we do well, we shall
Die of the absolute paternal care
Which does pursue us everywhere.

Others say that suffering is the result of sin. Speaking of a man born blind, the disciples ask, "'Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?' Jesus answered, 'Neither this man nor his parents sinned; he was born blind so that God’s works might be revealed in him.'" (John 9:2-3)

Although scripture affirms sin as causing suffering, it is not the sole cause. Suffering is a conflict between what is and what should be, sickness and health, failure and achievement, rivalry and love. At one level suffering simply describes the tensions that torture us in our attempts to be whole. The suffering caused by sin is aggravated by the conflict arising from self-centeredness, estrangement, and compromise of ideals. In any case, suffering has no value in itself. It is one thing to say that suffering shows the work of God; it is quite another to say that it has redemptive power itself.

The Bible makes it clear that God intends to exterminate suffering. We are called to repent and be saved from suffering. Christ came into the world to lay the foundation for a new kingdom, where "he shall wipe every tear from their eyes. Death will be no more; mourning and crying and pain will be no more." (Revelation 21:4)

For Christians, suffering remains impenetrable and incomprehensible, and provokes rebellion. Nor will the Christian blasphemously claim that God himself required Jesus’ death as compensation for what we make of our history. Suffering may be intrinsic to the human condition; but it is not inherent in the grand design God has for the universe. Given God as creator and shepherd, and given the divine presence in the world in the person of Christ, suffering of the innocent is unfathomable.

Even in their denials, skeptics sometimes show a better appreciation for the idea of God than do believers. (Ivan, in Dostoyevsky's Brothers Karamazov, speaks forcefully to this point.) They take seriously the contradiction between a loving God and the reality of evil and pain. Believers do not always face the gulf between evil and pain and an all-powerful God who opposes them. Reason fails before suffering and evil. All attempts to explain and interpret their existence, even in the context of Jesus’ saving work, seem to treat evil on the same level as good, as if it had a right to exist. The proper reaction to suffering and evil is to offer resistance, to act in a way meant to turn history to good effect. The Scriptures do not explain suffering and evil, but call on Christians to resist it and eradicate its causes