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Sat Jun 11, 2016, 12:43 PM

De-escalate, De-mobilize, and De-moralize any Progressive Movement

That is now and has always been a goal of the Democratic establishment. You can see it here and all over the media with regards to Bernie Sanders supporters and his message.

Endless culture wars are encouraged, but fair trade and the economy are off limits.

We as progressives are now supposed to sit down, shut up and allow them to get on with the business of managing the decline.

Fuck That!

137 replies, 9966 views

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Reply De-escalate, De-mobilize, and De-moralize any Progressive Movement (Original post)
Teamster Jeff Jun 2016 OP
Ned_Devine Jun 2016 #1
tecelote Jun 2016 #2
billhicks76 Jun 2016 #85
840high Jun 2016 #23
scottie55 Jun 2016 #25
Duval Jun 2016 #45
Betty Karlson Jun 2016 #51
KPN Jun 2016 #65
lakeguy Jun 2016 #81
roguevalley Jun 2016 #106
RKP5637 Jun 2016 #103
Phlem Jun 2016 #3
ChiciB1 Jun 2016 #4
SmittynMo Jun 2016 #16
AntiBank Jun 2016 #36
Wisc Progressive Jun 2016 #41
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #68
zeemike Jun 2016 #89
AntiBank Jun 2016 #105
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #113
Skittles Jun 2016 #118
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #119
Skittles Jun 2016 #132
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #133
Skittles Jun 2016 #134
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #135
nikto Jun 2016 #99
LineReply K
zentrum Jun 2016 #5
Magoo48 Jun 2016 #6
dinkytron Jun 2016 #7
indivisibleman Jun 2016 #11
ashtonelijah Jun 2016 #112
Matt_R Jun 2016 #136
Zen Democrat Jun 2016 #8
Wellstone ruled Jun 2016 #9
Fuddnik Jun 2016 #10
Teamster Jeff Jun 2016 #13
passiveporcupine Jun 2016 #22
swhisper1 Jun 2016 #111
PufPuf23 Jun 2016 #58
kpola12 Jun 2016 #88
cui bono Jun 2016 #90
ReRe Jun 2016 #93
Jackilope Jun 2016 #12
stupidicus Jun 2016 #14
raindaddy Jun 2016 #15
WHEN CRABS ROAR Jun 2016 #80
mindwalker_i Jun 2016 #17
ellennelle Jun 2016 #33
Trajan Jun 2016 #50
mindwalker_i Jun 2016 #75
GoneFishin Jun 2016 #108
Beartracks Jun 2016 #77
lunatica Jun 2016 #18
appalachiablue Jun 2016 #42
Dustlawyer Jun 2016 #44
Hulk Jun 2016 #46
ReRe Jun 2016 #78
roody Jun 2016 #84
GoneFishin Jun 2016 #109
LiberalEsto Jun 2016 #129
Ligyron Jun 2016 #130
jwirr Jun 2016 #19
-none Jun 2016 #24
jwirr Jun 2016 #26
-none Jun 2016 #35
jwirr Jun 2016 #39
AntiBank Jun 2016 #47
jwirr Jun 2016 #48
Fritz Walter Jun 2016 #57
AntiBank Jun 2016 #59
Fritz Walter Jun 2016 #61
AntiBank Jun 2016 #107
pangaia Jun 2016 #104
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #69
-none Jun 2016 #74
ellennelle Jun 2016 #20
felix_numinous Jun 2016 #21
scottie55 Jun 2016 #27
wallyworld2 Jun 2016 #34
Jack Rabbit Jun 2016 #28
McKim Jun 2016 #100
Warpy Jun 2016 #29
SmittynMo Jun 2016 #32
zeemike Jun 2016 #91
Warpy Jun 2016 #95
zeemike Jun 2016 #97
GoneOffShore Jun 2016 #30
wallyworld2 Jun 2016 #31
certainot Jun 2016 #37
Land Shark Jun 2016 #38
libodem Jun 2016 #40
skepticscott Jun 2016 #43
Post removed Jun 2016 #49
Fritz Walter Jun 2016 #60
skepticscott Jun 2016 #121
cui bono Jun 2016 #92
skepticscott Jun 2016 #120
Boomer Jun 2016 #122
tonyt53 Jun 2016 #52
lunatica Jun 2016 #62
reACTIONary Jun 2016 #115
modestybl Jun 2016 #53
leftofcool Jun 2016 #54
tonyt53 Jun 2016 #55
JohnnyRingo Jun 2016 #117
lunatica Jun 2016 #63
tonyt53 Jun 2016 #76
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #86
cui bono Jun 2016 #94
Fritz Walter Jun 2016 #56
HereSince1628 Jun 2016 #64
awoke_in_2003 Jun 2016 #82
HereSince1628 Jun 2016 #83
MadDAsHell Jun 2016 #66
Arugula Latte Jun 2016 #67
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #70
hay rick Jun 2016 #98
rhett o rick Jun 2016 #114
Paper Roses Jun 2016 #71
Paper Roses Jun 2016 #72
ananda Jun 2016 #73
MasonDreams Jun 2016 #79
pansypoo53219 Jun 2016 #87
mia Jun 2016 #96
leveymg Jun 2016 #101
RKP5637 Jun 2016 #102
Uncle Joe Jun 2016 #110
Peace Patriot Jun 2016 #116
davidthegnome Jun 2016 #123
skepticscott Jun 2016 #124
davidthegnome Jun 2016 #125
skepticscott Jun 2016 #126
Dyedinthewoolliberal Jun 2016 #127
Dogberry57 Jun 2016 #128
Eleanors38 Jun 2016 #131
Bubzer Jun 2016 #137

Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 12:47 PM

1. You said it

 

Defeating leftist governments isn't just our foreign policy. It's our domestic policy as well.

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Response to Ned_Devine (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 12:47 PM

2. +1!

Well said.

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Response to tecelote (Reply #2)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 08:37 PM

85. They're Building A Wall Around The Convention Center

 

Not a good look when you have to build a wall to protect yourselves from your own constituents.

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Response to Ned_Devine (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:36 PM

23. +2

 

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Response to Ned_Devine (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:45 PM

25. + 3

 

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Response to Ned_Devine (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:49 PM

45. +4

 

A sad state of affairs.

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Response to Ned_Devine (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 04:14 PM

51. + 5.

 

But I would add that by now, even moderately conservative economic policies are regarded as "leftish". Which is testament to the radical bend of the neo-liberals in power.

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Response to Betty Karlson (Reply #51)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:40 PM

65. +6

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Response to Ned_Devine (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 07:16 PM

81. +7

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Response to lakeguy (Reply #81)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:56 PM

106. plus google

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Response to Ned_Devine (Reply #1)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:22 PM

103. Exactly what is happening as the RW regime is further entrenched. n/t

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:00 PM

3. Yep! The USA is A #1 at installing leaders and not just abroad.

There's a reason our education system is super fucked up.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:11 PM

4. So Very True... AND It Seems So Many Here Even Want This!

Just do WHAT I SAY, NOT do AS I DO! You NEED to know your place and we'll make SURE! THIS Democratic Party looks nothing like the one I signed up with so many years ago!

BUT WHO NEEDS CHANGE?? STATUS QUO NOW, STATUS QUO FOREVER! Do NOT PASS GO!

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Response to ChiciB1 (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:03 PM

16. Bingo +1

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Response to ChiciB1 (Reply #4)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:11 PM

36. whyyyyyyy do so many on this board support to the bone

 

a pro war pro neoliberal corporatist agenda???? Then have the jacobs to accuse US of being RIGHT WING PLANTS when we intelligently argue and say FUCK NO!

I feel like I am on a saner, less racist version of Free Republic.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #36)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:34 PM

41. Because now it is OUR candidate and they have a "D" after their name n/t

 

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #36)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:54 PM

68. It's Authoritarian Adulation. The desire to stand with the biggest bully.

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 08:59 PM

89. Bingo...

That and it pays well to be in the in crowd.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #68)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:29 PM

105. isn't that supposed to be a right wing thing?

 

or if on the left, it would be ultra extreme authoritarian Stalinist/Maoist brute force Communism, FAR removed from democratic socialism

I have never in all the countries I have lived (8) and visited (94 and counting) seen a centre left party lurched to the right so far. Maybe I am just being naive, I don't know.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #105)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:40 AM

113. I believe it goes hand in hand with conservatism although I could see it in the

 

far left i.e., extreme authoritarian communism. I think it's a lack of liberal education in the last 50 years. It's so much easier to raise children using authoritarianism that it is to teach them to think for themselves and be skeptical esp. of those with power.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #68)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 05:06 AM

118. if that was the case, they'd all be for TRUMP

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Response to Skittles (Reply #118)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 08:53 AM

119. Not necessarily. For some reason they've rationalized that if you have a "D" behind your name

 

you are golden. Bernie challenges that idea so they try to say he doesn't really have a "D" behind his name.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #119)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 06:31 PM

132. not everyone FELT THE BERN

LEARN TO ACCEPT THAT AND MOVE ON

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Response to Skittles (Reply #132)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:05 PM

133. How very authoritarian for you to demand such, and in all caps.

 

Unlike the authoritarians, we will not move on until we get economic fairness for the 2.5 million homeless American children that the corpratists somehow can ignore in favor of more and more wealth for the Clintons, Goldman-Sachs, Citibank, Monsanto, Walmart, the oil companies, and of course the MIC.

Those that choose to bow down to the corporations in lieu of fighting for those among us that are struggling have no business calling themselves Democrats.

Here is what you can learn to accept, the Left will never bow before the Powers That Be. We may have lost this battle but we aint going nowhere.

JFK said something like, "Those that would deny a peaceful revolution are asking for a violent one. I don't want that, but it's inevitable as long as the corporatists continue to try crush us.

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #133)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:07 PM

134. ENOUGH ALREADY

OVER AND OUT - FOREVER

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Response to Skittles (Reply #134)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:13 PM

135. Oh my! Forever? Well I hope you find happiness as the banksters rob us blind.

 

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #36)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:01 PM

99. Yeah, me, too

 

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:16 PM

5. K

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:30 PM

6. Aaaaaaa, roger....fuck that! Over.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:41 PM

7. Fuck that is right. Time to call this place "DE" not "DU".

site is infiltrated with Demorcr

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Response to dinkytron (Reply #7)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:57 PM

11. sadly, you are correct. n/t

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Response to dinkytron (Reply #7)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:32 AM

112. Oh my God, leave. Go vote Trump and straight Republican if that's what you want so badly

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Response to ashtonelijah (Reply #112)

Mon Jun 13, 2016, 09:22 AM

136. wow, such anger, such compassion, and missed the whole point...

not one vote for a conservative, EVER.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:42 PM

8. +1

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:49 PM

9. It's all about money and power.

 

After the Mondale disaster,our Party purged any and all Union activist's and anyone who was or leaned progressive. In turn,we were replaced by the Elite Ivy League Educated so called Liberals,and now we see the true results. Watching Sanders trying to keep the Union Workers engaged only to be shot down by the Corporate Media and the Wall Street Democrats,is truly amazing. Remember,the Union Hall is the best phone bank one can get for free,as you and I well know.

Sad looking back through the years,our Democratic Party looks like the Rethugs of the Sixties. Here in Nevada,we have three distinct groups of Political Candidates running in this cycle. On the Democratic side,very Progressive(Bernie Supporters)and Dino's(Clinton Campers),and then we have the Tea Party(wannabe Rethugs supporters of the Militia/SovCit/Public Lands Groups)and it is one helluva game show. Today we find out Ricetts(TD Ameria Trade)just dumped a 1.6 million ad buy for one of these dupes. And Adelson and his Spouse are spending 1.5 million to clobber the Senate Candidate Cortes even though it is only one week left in the Primary Season. Truly Insane amount of Money flying around.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:54 PM

10. "Lifting the Veil". Must watch film.

Tells the story of how it's all happened.

http://topdocumentaryfilms.com/lifting-the-veil/

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:59 PM

13. I'm going to watch that tonight. Thanks

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:33 PM

22. Thank you, watching it now

The lesser of two evils is still evil. Both corporate parties.

That's like saying "would you like to die by hanging or by execution".

Our response should be "I choose not to die at all".

Spot on.

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Response to passiveporcupine (Reply #22)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:32 AM

111. AMEN

 

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:13 PM

58. Thank you. eom

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 08:55 PM

88. Bernie needs to run with Jill in the Green. I really want to swear.

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:08 PM

90. Thanks for recommendation.

Putting in on my watch list.

.

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Response to Fuddnik (Reply #10)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:15 PM

93. Thank you!

I catch allot of documentaries, but that is one I hadn't seen. I recommend it to everyone, especially those of you who are feeling and groping your way around trying to understand politics for the first time in your life, or those of you who are trying to catch up if you've fallen out or behind.

I was startled at the number of items mentioned with the date of 2010. That was a bad year for sure.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 01:58 PM

12. We can see even Wall St. watch dogs have their price as well.

I am so DONE with the illusion. It is time to fight.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:02 PM

14. I don't think that the sleeping giant is fully awake yet

 

from their long 3rdway/neoliberal induced slumber and nightmare, but will be not too far into what I hope is the first and only HC admin. Hopefully a BS anointed candidate or BS himself will primary her again in 2020, which should be standard practice until the party proper abandons their 3rdway/neoliberal ways.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:02 PM

15. True!!!

People need to wake up...

We're living in an Oligarchy and both parties not only stood back and let it happen they helped usher it in..

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Response to raindaddy (Reply #15)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 07:09 PM

80. That's why I won't shut up.

Like I have said before,

After the elections, the fight will continue. regardless of who is the President.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:09 PM

17. But Trump is bad, mmmkay?

So get your ass in line to vote for the Democratic Approved Candidate (tm).

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Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #17)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:09 PM

33. oooh, boogeyman!

excuse me? are you trying to tell us what to do here?

i have been voting democratic since mcgovern in 1972, and the last time i checked, there is nothing democratic about telling anyone what to do, most especially "get your ass in line." great way to win over voters there, kaiser; so polite.

i have been voting democratic since 1972, and i most decidedly do NOT approve this presumptive candidate.

and, i am most relieved and happy to report, i do not have to vote for her. and will not.

thank you very much, tho, for showing us the unsavory and tyrannical backside of her and her supporters. makes me feel even better about my decision.

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Response to ellennelle (Reply #33)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 04:10 PM

50. You must have misread that post

 

Mindwalker is a Bernie supporter ...

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Response to ellennelle (Reply #33)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 06:36 PM

75. Man, I thought the Mr. Mackey reference would give it away at least :)

The "Get your ass in line" part is how I feel about a lot of the posts these days. It seriously ticks me off that the D party shove Hillary down our throats then tells us to be good little b****** and vote for her, cuz Trump is bad. Makes me wonder whether Trump is a fabrication by the DNC just to scare us.

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Response to mindwalker_i (Reply #75)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 11:26 PM

108. The (TM) gave it away too. nt

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Response to ellennelle (Reply #33)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 06:49 PM

77. Mindwalker is mocking those who would tell you to do such a thing.

He's not actually himself telling you to do such a thing.



===================

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:15 PM

18. I've basically been thinking and feeling the same thing

I feel like I finally found a true Progressive who feels the same way I do and in dismay I've watched first as they ignored him, then they couldn't ignore him because he was winning States. No matter how they tried he was very quickly gaining on Hillary in all the polls, they tried to turn him into a spoiler like Nader. Then the last month they tried to turn him into a pathetic old man who simply doesn't understand when he needs to give up. They pretend they want us in the fold when in reality all they want is for us to shut up and disappear.

They keep talking about Bernie followers as if they're all too young to "get it". Well I'm 68 years old and a dozen of my workmates are around my age and we all back Bernie. They're lying about that too. They should know better.

For me it's not that I'm against Hillary as much as I'm against what she stands for which is the status quo. More of the same. The same Republican light ignoring the entire Left just to stay in power. This country has sunk into the beginnings of a third world country with homeless, unemployed, underpaid, minimum wagers who have no future. I've lived in a country that had a majority of people in poverty, and I see the signs everywhere because I can remember when there was no such thing as beggars in the street in this country. Now they're everywhere.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:42 PM

42. Well said.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:48 PM

44. +1!!! I agree, I'm 52 and tired of the corruption!

I see it in the court system (BP oil spill litigation), tort reform etc., in the media, and worst of all, our Representatives. Just the name of them, "Representatives," is a joke now.

They used to be OUR Representatives, now they represent Donors, yet we elect them time and again! Our candidates are pre-selected by the Plutocrats as witnessed during the interviews Sheldon Aldleson conducted for deciding which campaign gets the life giving money from a billionaire. Almost all had their own billionaire or they were a billionaire in their own right.

We are putting forth our Party's candidate for President who is the undisputed champion of raising money from a variety of wealthy Donors. Major Donors from all sorts of industry and banking, but we are just to believe her when she says that all that money and support mean nothing, no favors. She has some serious people expecting their quid pro quo. The sad thing is that on the Republican side the media pumped up Trump from the beginning to be this big, scary Teflon candidate. He is scary at least. A powerful Bogeyman you cannot risk and TPTB know it.

I will however be supporting the ongoing political revolution!

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Response to lunatica (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:57 PM

46. I'm your twin brother

Well said I couldn't agree more.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 06:57 PM

78. Hear! Hear!

Same here on the age thing.
I cringe every time they infer that it's only young people who support Bernie.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 08:22 PM

84. 62 year old Bernista here.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #18)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 11:33 PM

109. "there was no such thing as beggars in the street in this country. Now they're everywhere. "

Same where I live. And although it made me wonder just what the hell is going on, somehow hearing from you that the same progression of events is occurring elsewhere in the country, not just my town, makes it even more sad.

Our leaders have really fucked the country over in order to kiss their owners' asses.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:25 PM

129. Yep. I'm 64 and fed up

 

with the way the party has been going. Bernie gave me hope, and he still does.

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Response to lunatica (Reply #18)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:25 PM

130. I'm 62 and have had this same experience


"... I can remember when there was no such thing as beggars in the street in this country. Now they're everywhere."

THIS! Ain't it the truth?

Oh, maybe a few homeless in the larger cities when I was growing up but none in smaller communities. They are begging everywhere I travel now.

SAD...

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:21 PM

19. There is talk of a mass walk out at the Convention. I would

love to see that but I am wondering if it would be so mass? Would those in the Union establishment walk out? I doubt it.

Regardless I would still like to see it. Where I really think this movement is needed is at the grassroots. When the t-party started taking over the Rs they began with local offices and things like the school board.

I have written about what happened at the conventions when we voted on local committees etc. We voted unanimously for a slate selected by several people from the old committee. So who did we elect to run the party next election - a mixture of supporters? Bernie supporters? Hillary supporters? Or even Trump supporters? Who knows. Yet we have seen how the establishment has dominated this year - who did we vote for?

And I suspect that our Unions have the same problem. Who rules? The rank and file? or the establishment leaders?

We need desperately to start this change at the bottom or start a new party if we really want change.

And I will be the first to admit that I do not know how to do that. But a walkout would be a start.

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Response to jwirr (Reply #19)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:37 PM

24. The problem is if there is a mass walk-out, those left would then have free reign do as they pleased

That is what we are trying to stop now. The neo-liberal/3rd Way are doing their best to take over and if we walk out, there would be no one to stop them.

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Response to -none (Reply #24)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:46 PM

26. Yes, that is the problem. But they are not just trying to take

over - they are in power. So it may not be able to stop them. We do need to try.

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Response to jwirr (Reply #26)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:10 PM

35. They may be in power, but the National Convention is a high profile event.

That should keep the worst of their crap to a minimum... At least there.

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Response to -none (Reply #35)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:25 PM

39. We will see. Remember DWS is still in control.

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Response to jwirr (Reply #39)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 04:02 PM

47. she has got to fucking go! who would you suggest as a replacement?

 

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #47)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 04:06 PM

48. Well the man I am about to suggest is not going to get it

but I would like to see Bernie's campaign manager running the DNC. At least he would be fair.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #47)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:05 PM

57. Joe Biden n/t

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Response to Fritz Walter (Reply #57)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:14 PM

59. You have got to be joking. Biden is headlining a fundraiser this weekend for DWS!

 

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #59)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:20 PM

61. Not joking. Unaware.

Elizabeth Warren?

Or is she tainted, too, by her endorsement of Her (presumptive) Majesty?

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Response to Fritz Walter (Reply #61)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 11:02 PM

107. Warren would be too combative (a good thing for Senate, not good for the linking up of networks to

 

win seats. And no, to me (I only speak for myself) she is not tainted. I wish she had waited till the convention but I am not going to playa hate on her. She knows what she is doing. I rarely say this of politicians, but overall, I trust her more than I distrust her.

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Response to AntiBank (Reply #47)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:26 PM

104. I'll do it.

How about $300,000 per year? He'll, $100,000.

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Response to -none (Reply #24)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:55 PM

69. I doubt that staying will prevent them from doing what they want anywayz.

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #69)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 06:10 PM

74. If they stay, they can document and make a lot of noise about the unfairness of the procedures.

It most leave in a walk-out, it will be their word against the few opposition that stayed. Demonstration don't do any good if few show up.
The National Convention could be our last chance to get some concessions out of them for decades.
Think the worst and be surprised the least.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:27 PM

20. A-frikkin'-MEN!!!

plus some!!

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:29 PM

21. And don't forget segregation

instead of unification we are driven off to have vital discussions elsewhere-- but being in separate parties is what is best for now. Perhaps we will get more done that way. Go with the flow.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:47 PM

27. Don't Ever Let The Needs Of The Citizens

 

Get in the way of the profits of our "owners".....

As more people get screwed, more of them begin to understand who is screwing them. Good thing for the oligarchs they own the media.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:50 PM

28. K/R

Nominating Hillary Clinton changes nothing for me.

I am opposed to endless wars for oil, endless clandestine warfare to make the work safe for neoliberalism, free trade policies institutionalizing an endless undemocratic judicial system to settle investor/state disputes, endless violations of the Fourth Amendment and endless austerity to fix economies broken by endless upper class tax cuts.

If this is class warfare, let us make the most of it.

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Response to Jack Rabbit (Reply #28)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:07 PM

100. Amen!

Well said. I am with you. The wars make me sick and very very angry.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 02:59 PM

29. Clinton can't afford to write off the votes of an entire generation

She's going to have to earn them by adopting some of her opponent's message and policies.

If she doesn't, and conservatives keep up with their horseshit, get used to saying "president trump," because that's exactly what will happen.

I'm old enough to remember that it would be easy to beat an old B actor and a fake cowboy with a room temperature IQ.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:08 PM

32. I'm with you on your analysis

I don't see the oligarch taking orders from anyone. And she's definitely not going to kiss any millennial ass any time soon. It's not going to happen. Kinda tells me where this absurd election is going.

Shit, NO ONE ever thought Trump would get this far. Well, it happened.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #29)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:10 PM

91. She is counting on our fear of Trump.

Who else are you going to vote for?...that is the plan.

I sometimes think that the Clintons put Trump up to running. It's not like they were not friendly with him.

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Response to zeemike (Reply #91)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:22 PM

95. That's not enough and we all know it

After all, a lot of relatively uninformed people out there like Trump from his appearances on his TV show. They're not paying particular attention to him on the campaign trail.

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Response to Warpy (Reply #95)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:33 PM

97. There are a variety of reasons for people voting for Trump

And one is that he is not Hillary...who is the establishment personified.
Sometimes people vote against not for.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:00 PM

30. This should be in GD in order to watch heads explode.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:06 PM

31. exactly

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:16 PM

37. it is absurd to expect the dem party to go left while

the left and its orgs continue the biggest political mistake in history by ignoring the right's best weapon - talk radio.

at a cheap $1000/hr x 15hrs/day x 1200 stations, rw talk radio is worth 4.68 BIL$/ year or 390MIL$ /monthFREE for coordinated global warming denial, pro republican wall st think tank propaganda, free market deregulation bullshit, swiftboating, and the hate and fear used to get people to vote republican.

not only does it intimidate dems and media to go right it enables them to go right- the political center would probably be 20 pts left if liberals would destroy the rw radio monopoly. the sanders and warrens and wellstones wold be the norm instead of the exception.

btw, chances are it's likely that one or more major universities in your state is one of the 90 + that keep the rw radio monopoly going.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:22 PM

38. Very well and succinctly put! Nt

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:32 PM

40. Yep

The big finger.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 03:47 PM

43. Feel free to exercise your right to the alternatives

 

to sitting down and shutting up. But know that no "movement" achieves real, lasting change from a computer keyboard, or by endlessly circulating the same Facebook memes.

You want real progressives in office? Good for you. Get out there and recruit them. Or be them. But don't whine endlessly on DU about how the system is "rigged". Get all of those tens of thousands of cheering people at Sanders rallies to roll up their sleeves and get to work for the next 10 or 20 years. Can you do that? Are you willing to do that? Or are you going to pout because your candidate didn't get nominated, and stay home for every other election where no candidate is good enough, or you just have better things to do, dude?

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #43)


Response to skepticscott (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:18 PM

60. 10 - 20 years?

We don't have the luxury of that much time.
Global climate change is happening now. In one or two decades, Miami Beach will be gone. Ocean reefs will be as dead as the Koch Bros.
The global economy will be based on blood plasma and scavenged metals.
Nick Hanauer's TED Talk about Pitchforks for the plutocrats will sound like a Disney/Pixar fairytale.

Tick, Fucking Tock!

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Response to Fritz Walter (Reply #60)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:12 AM

121. Oh, global warming is a lost cause for sure

 

Last edited Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:19 AM - Edit history (1)

That ship sailed 35 years ago. What exactly did you think that Bernie Sanders was going to do to change that against a Republican-controlled Congress? And yet people are still calling for political change and reform. I simply stated a minimum of time for how long it will take. Will social chaos intrude before that can happen, even in the best of scenarios? Entirely possible. But that doesn't mean that "pitchforks" is a meaningful plan. Throwing the country against the wall politically and economically, seeing it break into pieces, and hoping that those pieces magically reassemble themselves into something better is fantasy, not sanity.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #43)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:14 PM

92. How precious that you assume people on DU are not doing anything in their real lives.



.

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Response to cui bono (Reply #92)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:03 AM

120. If they are doing what I mentioned, good for them

 

But I haven't seen it yet. And I didn't say that people on DU "are not doing anything", btw.

Perhaps you can point to a dozen or so who are stepping up to form and be candidates for a leftist third party, instead of just whining and Facebook posting about the "rigged" and "unfair" system as it is.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #43)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:34 AM

122. Thank you.

This is the only note of common sense I've read so far.

I'll support Hillary Clinton because the gulf between her and Trump is leagues wider than the differences within our party. Moving back to the left is a long game and it requires work over years. It's not going to be handed to us.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 04:31 PM

52. I keep asking and have ever gotten an answer.

 

What exactly is the difference between a Democrat and a progressive? It appears to me that progressives want the same things as Democrats, but more of it.

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #52)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:26 PM

62. The best way for you to get it is to look at Democratic Socialist countries

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Response to lunatica (Reply #62)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 01:34 AM

115. Denmark? Don't you mean Venezuela ?

Denmark's PM denies that Denmark is a socialist country

http://www.thelocal.dk/20151101/danish-pm-in-us-denmark-is-not-socialist

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 04:38 PM

53. Yep, that's their plan ... ain't going to work...

 

...and Sanders is taking this to the convention floor.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 04:49 PM

54. Feel free to vote for Trump or not vote

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 04:52 PM

55. You left out "write in Bernie", but then you did cover it under "vote for Trump" it is the same as.

 

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Response to tonyt53 (Reply #55)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 04:07 AM

117. Is Bernie registered as a write-in candidate in your state?

His votes don't get counted in most states unless he is. That's how they prevent Spongebob from getting elected governor. You might as well stay home.

I'll bet you knew that.

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:31 PM

63. You sound like you're still afraid of Bernie Sanders

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Response to lunatica (Reply #63)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 06:43 PM

76. Never was, never will be. Bernie will be forever a follower. He is good at it.

 

Nothing wrong with that either.

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 08:43 PM

86. Why do you think it's necessary to tell us we can do what we want? What are you even doing

 

in a Populist Reform Group?

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Response to leftofcool (Reply #54)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:16 PM

94. Really? We have your permission to act like normal adults and exercise our right to vote

however we please?

How generous of you.

Why do you even post stupid shit like that? Really, why bother? What are you contributing to this thread?

.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:03 PM

56. From lifelong Democrat to NPA?

I'm going to wait until the Convention to see how many Progressive measures find their way onto the DNC platform, before I re-register as No Party Affiliation.
Measures like:
- Social Security reform, including eliminating the cap;
- Wall Street reform, (see other posts on this thread);
- Single-payer health care, or -- at the very least -- reining in Big Pharma (Martin Shkreli is a symptom of what's wrong);
- Women's rights, such as equal-pay and reproductive freedom; and
- Reaffirmation of civil rights for LGBT citizens.

I could go on and on, but I hope you get the picture.

If these criteria get me booted from DU, so be it. To paraphrase St. Ronnie Raygun, I don't want to leave the Democratic Party, but I sincerely hope they're not going to leave me.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:36 PM

64. A long time, yes, but it has not always been the OVERT goal

I have living memory of Dems that dreamed progressive dreams and asked, "Why NOT?"

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Response to HereSince1628 (Reply #64)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 07:24 PM

82. The powers that be

 

Made their point loud and clear in 1968, because we didn't quite "get it" in 63
This is the DU member formerly known as awoke_in_2003.

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Response to awoke_in_2003 (Reply #82)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 07:54 PM

83. Actually, I was talking about '68

but I also could have been talking about 1968

The guy in 63 I'm not entirely sure was more than a very pragmatic politician

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:42 PM

66. The Democratic Party is more focused on celebrity personalities than it has ever been before.

 

Barack Obama has been a productive and likable President, but this really escalated with his candidacy, and has gotten even worse with Clinton's.

As long as the Democratic candidate is a political "rock star," no one seems to care anymore what the heck their policy positions are.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:45 PM

67. I will no longer help enable this neoliberal crap. I'm done.

 

The party has lost me.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #67)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:56 PM

70. I hear you but the best way to fight them is from within the Party.

 

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Response to rhett o rick (Reply #70)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:48 PM

98. Agree.

The Democratic Party is what we make it and you can't make it from the outside.

Maybe it's a ___rick thing...

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Response to hay rick (Reply #98)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:42 AM

114. LOL. I think we need to do both actually. Support groups like moveon, DFA, PDA but fight withing

 

the party to get control of local and state organizations.

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Response to Arugula Latte (Reply #67)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:59 PM

71. You are not alone. n/t

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 05:59 PM

72. K&R

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 06:09 PM

73. Absofuckinglutely!

We will not sit down and shut up!

Human life and the environment are at stake!

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 07:02 PM

79. A cold chill of Authoritarian wind just climbed up my spine

But not to worry we can pull Hillary left. Its just going to take all of us. We Are All In This Together.
A man whose name will grace history books in the future said that.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 08:55 PM

87. democrats sold their dole to wall street for survival during the reagan rev. need offense now.

cut wall street OFF.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 09:27 PM

96. Democracy Undermined.

The last place I expected to see that was here.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:18 PM

101. An unmanaged decline might put them out of business. Managed decline just eats us up.

We get to choose which. I know what I prefer.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sat Jun 11, 2016, 10:20 PM

102. It's time to separate and move forward. The democratic party left us. n/t

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:20 AM

110. Kicked and recommended.

Thanks for the thread, Teamster Jeff.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:14 AM

116. The 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines are the FINAL demoralization method.

Here is my comment on Reformist2's OP, in which Reformist2 worries about spoiling peoples' 4th of July "if we all stated thinking our elections were rigged...".

http://www.democraticunderground.com/12512177197

Peace Patriot (24,002 posts)

69. I haven't had a happy 4th of July since 2004...

...when I realized, after much study and argument here at DU, that these privately controlled 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines, that had been spread like a plague across our land, had been used to re-s/elect Bush-Cheney. The plague of 'TRADE SECRET' voting machines continued and they are now everywhere, in every state, with the southern states (where Hillary got her big advantage) doing NO AUDIT AT ALL (comparison of ballots to machine results) and the rest of the states doing a miserably inadequate audit.

Our system is easily--EASILY!--riggable and has been rigged. The only question in my mind now is who and why. It is not a matter of the peoples' votes any more. It's a matter of who controls the code in these machines and why they are s/electing one candidate over another.

As far as I'm concerned, the privatization of the very counting of our votes was the last nail in the coffin of our democracy, and until we nearly dead citizens somehow push that nail out, and restore vote counting to the PUBLIC VENUE, no other reform is possible. Our democracy has been buried alive and we don't have much time to unbury it before it dies.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 09:43 AM

123. What would you suggest?

As far as moving forward goes, I mean? The facts are pretty simple. Clinton won the majority of pledged delegates - and a great majority of super delegates. She won the popular vote by millions. The people of America - and of the democratic party, have made their decision. While Sanders has not yet conceded, Clinton's nomination isn't in question at this point. The hints of rebellion... a contested convention, flipping super delegates and various other ideas... seems to me to actually go against the will of the people who voted, who got involved, who got out there and let their voices be heard. Many chose Sanders - more chose Clinton.

That does not mean that the Progressive Movement is defeated - Sanders was, but he wasn't the movement by himself. It doesn't mean we have to shut up and sit down, but it does mean that we will have to shift tactics somewhat, if we want to keep going.

There are no easy decisions here. I've got my doubts about Clinton, the democratic establishment and so on - but we do have to acknowledge the reality that she has secured the nomination. If it had been done by super delegates alone... that would have been another matter. If she had lost the popular vote, that might be another matter. If she was behind in pledged delegates, again, another matter. She won all three... handily.

I would humbly suggest, that we not only get behind Clinton - but keep burning the fire that Sanders helped start. For there are other realities, too. There are millions of people in this Country who are progressive, at least in principle - and want... and need, the changes that Sanders spoke of. Rather than jumping ship and voting third party, or actively working against the establishment... we need to make the establishment represent us. There are various ways we can do this, our votes for other progressive candidates will help. Our support for Clinton when she does promote and attempt to accomplish progressive policy will help. Our condemnation of corrupt politics, dirty money, conservative policies and so on... will help.

What will help more than anything else right now though, is defeating Donald Trump in the general. Clinton can do this - but she can't do it without us. A third party candidate... - cannot do this -. Not now, not with the current situation in this Country, not running against Clinton and Trump both. Something very similar happened here in Maine's last gubernatorial election - many progressives, independents, more liberal democrats and others... who were not excited about a much more moderate, somewhat conservative democrat like Mike Michaud, instead voted for the independent, Elliot Cutler... not just in the last gubernatorial election - but in the last two. The result? Meet Governor Paul LePage, austerity, the weakening and destruction of social programs, funding cuts, education cuts, bigotry... and so much worse. This is one of the most despicable, most hated politicians in America - and he won two elections because democrats and progressives could not unite and organize against him.

We don't have to completely agree with, or even like everyone we vote for. At times, however, there are choices to be made... for the greater good of us all. It's no joke, ladies and gentlemen... if Trump wins this election, we are going to suffer for it. America and the world will suffer for it. This goes beyond pride, beyond even principle. When it comes down to it, the choice really ought to be clear. We are caught between a candidate many progressives do not like or trust - and a man who, just about all of us are convinced... would be an absolute nightmare for our Country and the world.

We cannot lose this one - and by we, I mean the people of America who give a damn, who care, who pay any attention at all. A republican house and senate... maintained, under a President Trump. Imagine that, if you will. More wars? Oh yes, we will see more of that. Tax cuts for the rich, cuts to, perhaps even the elimination of social programs. Invasion of privacy? Expect it to become more severe. Hateful, bigoted rhetoric coming from the highest office in the Country. A commander in Chief with his hand near the nuclear button... who has no foreign policy experience, no military experience... a bad temper, and a horde of angry, militant supporters.

No, this isn't the time to sit down and shut up. This is the time to do what we must, for all the right reasons. We can hold Clinton's feet to the fire, we can keep this progressive movement going, we can keep that fire burning. Not only can we - but we must. The defeat of Sanders does not mean we are finished - far from it, this thing is only getting started...

However, if we want to have the chance, in the future, to help create the government we dream of, we need to maintain, at the very least, some level of security, of normal relations. We need to provide a constant check against the right wing, even if at times that means working with politicians who don't excite us. Are we going to let someone like Trump dismantle the EPA? Among all of the other really awful ideas he has... that one, at a time when humanity faces an extinction level event in it's near future... due to environmental issues...

It's insane. There is only one choice to make here going forward. I have made it for myself - and I invite you all to join me. I will be supporting Hillary Clinton in the general - because there is no other choice. No, don't sit down and shut up - speak up, about everything you believe in. Challenge power and authority when it is wrong at every opportunity. Demand accountability, march in the streets... but do not shoot yourself in the foot.

Just my ten cents.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #123)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:09 AM

124. +100 Very well put

 

I doubt it will have any impact on the OP, whose response to an exhortation to roll up his sleeves and work for the kind of change he says he wants, instead of just complaining, was "go fuck yourself", but perhaps some Sanders supporters will see the wisdom in it.

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Response to skepticscott (Reply #124)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:28 AM

125. It's not an easy thing.

I believe in Sanders very much... in what he represents, hell, I would have been proud and happy to march in the streets with him. I can understand the anger, frustration and sadness of Sanders supporters, for many, this is a devastating defeat. It is not only that our candidate was defeated, but for some of us, it feels that our principles, the very foundations of the things we believe in, have been challenged - and overcome, perhaps by someone who will not represent us. The fear among many, is that under a Clinton Presidency, we may not have a place at the table.

Yet... I am also from Maine. I also lived through, twice, the election of... Governor Paul LePage. I have seen, experienced, firsthand, what happens when progressives and democrats, independents and liberals... cannot make common cause. When we insist that our principles are the only way, that it is not enough to stop evil (and yes, I do indeed call Mr. LePage evil) but that we must have only the greatest good. Only what we believe it to be.

The results of the split between democrats and progressive, liberal - and independent allies, many of whom share the very same principles and basic goals... devastated my state - and my own personal life. One example of this is how we did not pass medicaid expansion. As a result, many thousands (myself included) are without health insurance. I have a bad back I can't fix (though treatment could probably fix it), teeth that, for all of my brushing, are beginning to fall apart, because I can't afford to see a Dentist. There are people suffering and even dying because they cannot get medication or treatment that they need.

There have been cuts to social programs that the poor people of Maine desperately rely on. To add insult to injury, LePage has, over and over again... demonstrated that he is indeed a bigot, a blowhard, a braggart and bully of the worst sort. He is an ignorant imbecile who has somehow declared himself the "Commissioner of Education" for the state of Maine. The list goes on and on...

I do not want the entire Nation to know that suffering. I do not want all of us to witness, to experience, firsthand, what happens when we fail to stop evil. Yes, I say and mean evil. Bigotry, cruelty, anger, hatred, intolerance, ignorance, racism, economic injustice, social injustice. These things, they are promoted, led, even embodied within the likes of Mr. LePage and Mr. Trump.

I'll do whatever I can to stop them. So, I humbly suggest, should we all. The defeat of Sanders may have been a setback for the progressive movement, but it has not defeated the progressive movements. We can't move forward by insisting on our way above everything and anything else... but by making common cause with people with similar ideals, thoughts and goals. The best way to move forward is to unite, to put our strength together into a movement that can defeat Trump, push Clinton to the left - and promote, maintain... and I hope... accomplish, progressive policies.

With Clinton, perhaps we can move forward - even move our cause forward. With Trump, everything falls backward, behind - and we have a President who lead our Nation into greater suffering, ruin and devastation. For me, it is a very clear choice.

Pardon my rant. I tend to get very... passionate about these things. For good reasons, I think.

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Response to davidthegnome (Reply #125)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 10:55 AM

126. Frankly, I would much rather live in a country

 

run by the principles that Sanders espouses than those that Clinton espouses. I voted for him in my primary. But the country is apparently not ready for that, perhaps due to a combination of political, social and economic ignorance, and just plain apathy, along with healthy doses of well-nutured hatred and fear.

I would add one more point to your many good ones, that the regular attempts to bring about political reform (progressive or otherwise) from the top down are misguided and have resulted in no meaningful change. What has been the impact of people like Ross Perot or Ralph Nader running for president on the overall landscape of elected officials in this country? Essentially nothing. People think they can reform politics in this country by running a president who is outside the two-party mainstream, and that's simply crazy. It may get them excited, but the fact remains that, even if someone like that got elected (and because of the Electoral College, president is the WORST office to run a third party/independent candidate for) it is just one person (albeit a powerful one), stacked against entrenched establishment forces at every level of government, federal, state and local. Real change needs to start from the bottom up, at the city, county and state levels, running people for offices they can actually win, and slowly changing the political landscape, one stone at a time, moving more progressive candidates slowly up the ladder, and (hopefully) producing a more aware electorate (though that may always have been a pipe dream). That's what needed to happen 35 years ago. If a movement like that had started in 1981, after Carter lost to Reagan, we might actually be somewhere now, but progressive activists and political "revolutionaries" have preferred the futile presidential shortcut (followed by fading into the background for the mid-term elections) and eschewed the hard, unglamorous work of long-term electoral change.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 11:05 AM

127. It's not just the Democratic Establishment

many of the attacks on Clinton have come from the right. Truth be told, she's not any worse than the majority of politicians that preceeded her. But she pales in comparison to Sanders. That is what this is all about.
For the US to have a viable third party is gonna mean work. Who is going to do that? Most of the electorate that participates, usually only gets interested at election time. Otherwise we got stuff to do.............

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 12:24 PM

128. Think first

We can all wish heaven to earth, but change, especially in this polarized atmosphere, takes cooler heads and perseverance. Believe in the cause and keep working for change.

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Sun Jun 12, 2016, 02:03 PM

131. Agreed.

 

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Response to Teamster Jeff (Original post)

Tue Jun 14, 2016, 06:09 PM

137. Indeed.

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