It is really weird to me that any Democrat thinks Sanders isn't a Democrat

[marym625]

Cross post in PRODP http://www.democraticunderground.com/12777983


I think back to the first Democratic Presidential Nominee that I understood much of what was going on. That was Senator George McGovern in 1972 and I was 8 years old.

Obviously, at that age, my understanding was limited. But I was a smart kid with incredibly intelligent parents that made sure we knew what was going on in the world.

In today's political climate, I see so much, especially from neo Democrats, about how the populist movement is wrong, short sighted, socialist, naive, etc etc etc. But if you look at where we are compared to where we were back in 1972, the current populist movement seems conservative to me.

There is no doubt that McGovern, who lost by a landslide, was on the liberal side of the Democratic spectrum. But his loss is attributable to many more factors than his actual politics.

Just as a reminder to people, or a history lesson for the younger Populists, here's what McGovern wanted as far as taxation. If he had been elected, what a different world we would be living in. A much better place as far as I am concerned.

The most urgently needed change in our systems of taxation and public assistance is to place far greater emphasis on fairness. Each American should feel that he is getting his money’s worth and that he is being treated exactly like every other American. Each American should pay his fair share and each American should receive his fair share. That is clearly not the case now.

The federal tax system is basically sound, although it has been riddled with special privileges for the rich. We should move now to establish a fair tax system for all Americans.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/1972/may/04/george-mcgovern-on-taxing-redistributing-income/

Go Bernie!

[FBaggins]

1. Shouldn't you take that up with him?

He doesn't think he's a Democrat.

[marym625]

2. He says he is a socialist Democrat

I am not disputing he is a socialist democrat. My point is that back then, that's what democrats were. The fact that the labels have to be made, that make it sound so "left" is new and due to the fact that the party has moved so far right

[FBaggins]

4. You used a capital "D" in your OP

He isn't one of those. Democratic Socialists are a different party.

My point is that back then, that's what democrats were.

Then perhaps you should ask a question about why the party has changed rather than why that party accepts his statement that he isn't part of it.

[marym625]

7. What?

When and where did Bernie Sanders say he is running as anything but a Democrat?

I am not aware of any party called "Democratic Socialist." We're all Democrats

If I had asked something, that's my prerogative. You are allowed to ask whatever you want. But I would never ask why Sanders says he isn't part of the Democratic party, because he is

[FBaggins]

17. Sorry... I can't think of ways to make that simpler

When and where did Bernie Sanders say he is running as anything but a Democrat?

He's running for the Democratic nomination for President... but the OP doesn't ask that. It asks how people can question whether he's a Democrat. Well... he has been asked that question multiple times since his announcement and continues to insist that he isn't one.

I am not aware of any party called "Democratic Socialist."

Really? They're all over the world. But my point was that having the word "democrat" in how you label yourself is not the same thing as being a Democrat (capital "D&quot .

But I would never ask why Sanders says he isn't part of the Democratic party, because he is

So you think he's lying when he says that he isn't?

[marym625]

21. You are being disingenuous at best

For your first statement, please see reply #6 in this thread. You already have the answer. The truth.

For your second statement, I'm talking about the USA. I believe you know that.

For your final statement, refer to the response to the first

One more lie about Senator Sanders and you are out of the group. May already be too late

[FBaggins]

23. Nope. You're still not paying attention.

For your first statement, please see reply #6 in this thread. You already have the answer. The truth.

This is the "truth" that any label that he chooses to apply that includes the word "democrat" should be taken to mean that he's now a Democrat (a political party which he refuses to join even when seeking their endorsement)?

For your second statement, I'm talking about the USA. I believe you know that.

Why would that matter? Sanders is clearly selecting a label that intentionally means something other than Democrat for a reason (see below).

One more lie about Senator Sanders and you are out of the group. May already be too late

Sorry... you aren't paying attention. I don't oppose his candidacy. I prefer him to Clinton by a wide margin. I'm simply not interested in making up an artificial reality to support that.

Here's what you're missing. For many years Bernie has agreed with you. The Democratic party has shifted so far toward the right that he's not willing to be associated with the label any longer. You would like to force that association on others because you think that it will increase his support here. I have no idea whether or not that would work.. but it doesn't matter. I think instead that you should respect his self identification.

[Jackpine Radical]

54. As Bernie uses the term, he's talking about a specific progressive

philosophical orientation.

Henry Wallace, FDR's first VP, was pretty much of the same stripe.

Wallace almost became the nation's president. In 1940, he was FDR's running mate and served as his vice president for four years. But in 1944, against the advice of the Democratic Party's progressives and liberals - including his wife Eleanor - FDR reluctantly allowed the party's conservative, pro-business and segregationist wing to replace Wallace with Sen. Harry Truman as the vice presidential candidate, a move that Stone calls the "greatest blunder" of Roosevelt's career. Had Wallace remained as vice president, he would have become president when FDR died in April 1945.

Wallace opposed the cold war, the arms race with the Soviet Union and racial segregation. He was a strong advocate of labor unions, national health insurance, public works jobs and women's equality. He would have been, without question, the most radical president in American history. He would have served out the remaining three years of FDR's fourth term and certainly would have sought to be elected on his own in 1948.

http://www.truth-out.org/opinion/item/14297-henry-wallace-americas-forgotten-visionary#

[blackspade]

65. what a different world we would live in.

such a bummer.

[L0oniX]

3. You do know you are posting in the Bernie Sanders group.

[FBaggins]

5. So?

Was there something anti-Bernie about accepting his self identification?

[L0oniX]

6. He describes himself as a Democratic Socialist ...and this IS the Bernie Sanders group.

Bernie Sanders: "Call Me A Democratic Socialist"! U.S. Senator Bernie Sanders joins Thom Hartmann for their weekly town hall meeting, Brunch with Bernie.
https://tinyurl.com/obuhpdm

[smokey nj]

8. Is it just me or does it seem like the group is being invaded

this morning?

[marym625]

9. I was just going to ask the same question

[L0oniX]

12. It's mega weak sauce to attack with the "he doesn't call himself a Democrat" at this point.

Maybe they are Tom Hartman Bernie interview video impaired.

[marym625]

13. LOL!

Evidently, they are even Hillary impaired since she welcomed Sanders to the Democratic primary race

[FBaggins]

19. Sorry... you're confused

I prefer Bernie to Hillary - though I'll happily vote for either one in the general and it probably won't be an issue once the primaries get to me.

[marym625]

22. I'm not confused at all

Your posts are dissing Senator Sanders and saying things that are just not true. You are purposely trying to degrade his message and loyalty. He has said he is a socialist DEMOCRAT. In the DEMOCRATIC PARTY

[FBaggins]

24. Now I'm "dissing" him?

Goodness... I'd assume that taking him at his word is anything but "dissing"

He has said he is a socialist DEMOCRAT. In the DEMOCRATIC PARTY

Nope. That isn't what he has said.

I have to wonder why you support him if you don't believe him?

[marym625]

28. This is tiresome

I replied to another post of yours here with the same answer I would have to this one.

To say he isn't running as a Democrat is inaccurate and does exactly what he is trying to avoid.

I prefer to leave it at your last reply directly to the OP

[FBaggins]

18. You'll have to take that up with him

It isn't my distinction... it's his.

[L0oniX]

38. Take your crap and post it in GD not here. I posted a video link of him "Democratic Socialist".

I'm sure the Hillary group will welcome you.

[marym625]

43. Thank you

Oy! That was tiresome

[Autumn]

46. Wait, did you get a DU mail from a certain ice cream flavored poster on time out

informing you that Bernie still isn't a Democrat?

[L0oniX]

47. I guess he emailed the wrong Democratic Socialist host too

[octoberlib]

50. Isn't that poster still here?

I swore I saw posts that looked just like hers in GD

[Autumn]

51. Well technically she's on a time out.

She was upset with me today, hence the string of DU mails I got from her.

[octoberlib]

52. You really got emails? Oh , that IS funny.

[Autumn]

55. Oh yeah. Just to remind me "He is STILL not a Democrat...and he said so himself...

YOU are trying desperately to prove otherwise.." I'll send them to you.

[octoberlib]

57. Omg, do! She must be extremely worried.

[L0oniX]

10. They must be pissed off about all the positive Bernie ops.

[marym625]

16. This is why I didn't post in GD

I actually wanted to. It's not the Bernie supporters or populists I need to convince. But I am just not in a mood to read all the bullshit that would come with posting there.

Don't get me wrong. I have no issue with actual discussion or debate. But the attacks, the snark and the lies that go on in GD takes a certain mood to deal with

[L0oniX]

10. .

dupe

[Enthusiast]

58. Desperation. Fear.

[FBaggins]

20. He was asked just last week whether he considered himself a Democrat

"No, I am an independent who is going to be working with the —" Sanders said, cutting himself off mid-sentence. "I am what I am, and I will have to deal with the state-by-state regulations. But I am what I am."

http://www.sevendaysvt.com/vermont/in-presidential-bid-sanders-relishes-a-familiar-role-underdog/Content?oid=2584013

I ask again why I shouldn't take him at his word?

[marym625]

26. He also said

"He said, 'I'm not going to be a spoiler and elect a Republican,'"

Frankly, since that article quotes from previous speeches and interviews, I don't know the quote you used is from the interview a week ago. Neither do you.

He has stated, on many occasions, that he is a socialist Democrat. He is running as a Democrat. He first ran as independent because of the shift to the right in the Democratic party.

The party needs to get back to its roots. We should no longer embrace the push to the right that has caused the current party to be so in tune with the Republicans.

I take him at his word. He is a socialist Democrat in the Democratic party in the democratic primary

[FBaggins]

33. I haven't implied that he'll run as a 3rd party spolier

I certainly wouldn't support him doing so. Somehow you keep trying to pin me as opposing Sanders so now you're refuting other Sanders opponents' spin about him.

Frankly, since that article quotes from previous speeches and interviews, I don't know the quote you used is from the interview a week ago. Neither do you.

It's from a previous unreported speech that just happened to be reported a week ago? Isn't that a bit of a stretch?

He has stated, on many occasions, that he is a socialist Democrat.

You're capitalizing in a deceptive way. Was that intentional? That isn't what he said. That could be read as being a socialist who is also a Democrat... but that isn't close to what he's saying. He's saying the same thing we both agreed on below. He's picking a label that makes clear that he's well left of the party as a whole. He was just on Hartman's show a couple days ago making clear that even if he has to adopt the label for technical filing purposes... he's still an Independent.

The party needs to get back to its roots. We should no longer embrace the push to the right that has caused the current party to be so in tune with the Republicans.

That's what he's saying too. But the way that he says it is to reject the label Democrat. Rather than try to spin what he's saying to make it seem more palatable to rank and file Democrats... you should embrace it and explain to Democrats why they should as well.

I take him at his word. He is a socialist Democrat in the Democratic party

That's strange... you're "taking at his word" words that were not his. He has never said that he is "in the Democratic party". He has spent years rejecting such a formulation. Rather than take him at his word, you're putting words in his mouth.

[L0oniX]

35. Come back if you decide to accept the SOP.

[Orsino]

14. Long before he is nominated, he will have to satisfy rank-and-file Dems as to his loyalty.

If he hadn't already, he'll have to tell the story about how he came to call himself a Democrat or Democratic Socialist, rather than an Independent or Socialist.

While I'd rather our party caught up with him, the fact is that as the (relative) outsider he'll need to justify himself somehow to anyone not immediately welcoming him and his agenda. If he does not, he certainly will not be mominated.

I think Sanders is more or less what a Dem ought to be, but my opinion is so far in the minority.

[marym625]

15. I agree in part

I agree he has to win over the mainstream Democrat. However, I don't believe you are in the minority.

I believe it's just semantics. The word conjures up negativity for many. Even those that were not around back during McCarthyism, hear "socialist" and think "Red China" or "Soviet Union."

While so many agree with most or all of Bernie's policy, (try to get an HC supporter to argue against his record) you throw the word "socialist" in the mix and the conversation shuts down.

We need to find a way to get around this obstacle. I don't mean to throw the word out of the conversation. I mean we need to make it better understood.

[FBaggins]

25. Let's try it this way

He's what many here believe Democrats should be but are no longer.

[marym625]

27. I think many think that

But I also think the majority just don't know that they are the majority

[FBaggins]

29. They're certainly a majority here on DU

At least, that's my impression. And it causes something of a bubble that makes it harder for some to see reality.

But they aren't the majority in the party as a whole (and particularly not among the larger group of those who regularly vote for Democrats).

[marym625]

30. I disagree

The fact that so many say, "I agree with Sanders but he can't win" is the majority. And if they would realize that the majority agree and vote for what they truly want, Sanders would win with the greater majority of the vote. And not just DU people

[FBaggins]

34. So are you saying that you think that Democrats in general are stupid?

They just keep electing centrists because they don't know any better? Most of them would prefer a different candidate but they're just fooled into accepting the watered-down version?

The fact that so many say, "I agree with Sanders but he can't win" is the majority

Again - that's the majority (perhaps) here on DU. It certainly isn't in the public at large who vote for Democrats. Just look at opinion polls issue by issue... there is no majority that far to the left. There is a center-left majority that could be pulled left with the right leadership and the right circumstances.

[marym625]

37. Oh my god

You are really reaching.

The article quotes things from previous speeches. How is that anything but the truth?

I am not the one assuming Democrats in general are stupid. That would be you.

You are obviously trying very hard to stay here by pretending to be a Bernie supporting while doing all you can to disrespect him.

[marym625]

39. majority rules in the Sanders group

You are out of here

[BeyondGeography]

31. Watching him on Face the Nation he really doesn't consider himself to be a Democrat

He loves being an Independent and is grateful to the state of VT for letting him be one for these many years.

If you want to see Bernie struggle, make him say, "I am a Democrat." He hasn't had to all his life, and he has liked it that way.

This isn't a swipe at his political positions, just an observation. He's an authentic person whose independence has meant a lot to him. He will, however, have to get a little better at finessing the party affiliation question if he wants to get a fair hearing from as many Democrats around the country as possible.

[marym625]

32. Most of what you say is true

It doesn't change the fact he is running in the Democratic party as a Socialist Democrat. And anyone that supports him needs to keep that in mind and make sure it is well known. Because it is also a truth

[jeff47]

36. Because if they talk about issues, they lose the argument.

So it's all about labels and hair and age.

Just make sure you don't talk about labels and hair and age when discussing their candidate. That's horribly offensive.

[marym625]

41. I never do.

Like you said, that offends them. I like to keep to issues. Just wish I could get the other candidate or the supporters to do the same

[-none]

40. Bernie Sanders represents what the Democratic Party used to be.

And what we must do is drag the Democratic party back to where this country used to be, if we are to survive with any kind of real freedom for the average citizen.
Being the Left Wing of the Republican Party only slows down the decent to the bottom.
The Republican party of Eisenhower was much better than the current Democratic party. But how many are old enough to remember that far back?

[marym625]

42. Not me. but I have read about it

Even the party Republican party in 68, as much dissent as there was, still was more liberal than very the democratic party of today. But I really do believe that the rank and file truly wants the same thing that Bernie Sanders does. They are just too afraid of losing to the women hating Republicans. But if we all stand and vote our conscience, we will obliterate the repugs.

[aspirant]

44. I say HURRAH for this block

I've been informed that each host has the individual power to block and we're going to need this as Bernie and the Populist movement rises.

We are already experiencing the Infiltrators because they know there is something huge brewing in Bernieland.

Under the GUISE of debate, these nuisances try to keep just barely within the SoP but the definition of supporters allows adequate leeway.

I say to the hosts, don't be shy to pull the trigger because this labeling nonsense is tiresome and that energy could be spent on actions to get Bernie elected

I try to do my part and expose these frauds and I hope this can be a team effort

[marym625]

45. Thank you

When someone is really blatant about something, each host can just block. When they pull the just on the line crap, we try to give the benefit of the doubt.

Personally, I would rather not block until I have input from other hosts. But you are right. They are starting to swarm and we won't have the luxury of time.

And yes, I let that one go on too long. Long enough for another host say "if you don't, I will"

[L0oniX]

48. It is really weird to me that any Democrat thinks $$$$$$$ IS a Democrat.

Back atcha

[marym625]

49. Thank you

Perfect. You hit the nail on the head

[sadoldgirl]

53. Yes, I think you were almost right

with your title, however it might have been better
in the end to write it with a small d.
He has claimed (and I believe still does so) that
he is a democratic socialist, which is fine, and which
he is starting to define.
The problem is that most Democrats are no democrats,
at least not anymore.

[marym625]

56. I appreciate your thoughts on this

But the D was intentional. Socialist Democrat in the US is still a Democrat

I agree that many people in the Democratic party are not true Democrats. Especially those in office

[sadoldgirl]

60. Okay;I think that most Bernie supporters

prefer to be democrats instead of just looking at a D.

[marym625]

61. Sorry, I guess I am being obtuse

But I don't follow what you mean

[djean111]

62. I think that what is meant is that having a "D" after a politician's name does not mean that the

politician has what used to be considered Democratic principles. Bernie is more of an actual Democrat, in principle, than a lot of so-called Democrats, from the top of the heap on down.

I am going to use that knowledge from now on, when deciding whether to vote for a "D".

[marym625]

64. Most definitely

That was my whole point. I don't consider President Obama a real Democrat. But he says he is one.

Bernie had to move away from the party because the party was taken over by phoney dems.

But MY Democratic party is the liberal party it used to be. And has grown to embrace even greater change. So Bernie is a Democrat, on the left of the party. Many others that use the party are just profiteers.

[Enthusiast]

59. PLUS ONE, a whole bunch!

[Doctor_J]

63. well, if the president and Hillary ARE dems, then I guess it makes sense to say that

someone like Sanders, who favors progressive taxes, healthcare for all, slashing the military budget, living wage, public schools, an end to drill baby drill, and wall street regulation, is not. See?

[marym625]

66. Yes. very true. But. ..

I don't think that the President and Hillary are Democrats. They are profiteers using the most convenient party for themselves. See