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Joe BidenCongratulations to our presumptive Democratic nominee, Joe Biden!

Sat May 25, 2019, 07:57 AM

 

Donald Trump is not far right.

A supposed young, centrist social studies teacher I work with asked me what I thought about Joe Biden and his poll numbers. My standard answer at this point is it is 6 months too early for poll numbers. He then went on to say that he thought Biden had the best chance of beating Trump as he was a moderate. I asked why couldn’t a far left candidate win against Trump when Trump won as a far right candidate.

That is when he stated, “Trump isn’t far right.” He then asked me to tell him how Trump was far right. I brought up Trump’s position on immigration, separating families, and how he negatively responds to all minorities. This teacher then switched his attack to Trump has never said anything racist, people say he has but he has never specifically said racist comments. When I replied with all Mexicans are rapists and murders this teacher said Trump said some and some are. I said Trump only said some after the fact, trying to clean it up. I also mentioned When Trump said there are good people on both sides. This teacher tried to downplay this statement.

Republicans always like to tell Democrats who they should run. If they lose they do want a moderate democrat to win instead of a progressive. I hear from Democrats who are so scared to lose that they’re want a moderate also, thinking it will peel off centrist votes and ensure a democratic victory. We can’t be afraid as a party to be who we are. Republicans never are. When they lose they think it’s because they weren’t far right enough. Why can’t we be more like that.

We had a blue wave last election because our people showed up, not because we peeled centrists off to vote for us. It will be the same next year if we give them a candidate that excites them.

I’m not against Biden, and would vote for him, but we don’t need to choose a candidate based on the political spectrum. Instead we should pick a candidate based on his or her positions and then work hard and pull together to make sure that candidate wins.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Arrow 33 replies Author Time Post
Reply Donald Trump is not far right. (Original post)
wcast May 2019 OP
stonecutter357 May 2019 #1
abqtommy May 2019 #2
Hortensis May 2019 #3
LuvNewcastle May 2019 #8
Hortensis May 2019 #10
Turin_C3PO May 2019 #24
Hortensis May 2019 #25
Vidal May 2019 #4
Cha May 2019 #14
rampartc May 2019 #5
barbtries May 2019 #6
lark May 2019 #7
Efilroft Sul May 2019 #9
nolabear May 2019 #11
Laelth May 2019 #12
Cha May 2019 #13
progressoid May 2019 #17
Cha May 2019 #19
progressoid May 2019 #21
Cha May 2019 #27
UniteFightBack May 2019 #15
earthshine May 2019 #16
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #26
earthshine May 2019 #29
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #30
earthshine May 2019 #31
andym May 2019 #18
Cha May 2019 #20
andym May 2019 #22
Hortensis May 2019 #32
The Velveteen Ocelot May 2019 #23
Hortensis May 2019 #33
TwilightZone May 2019 #28

Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 08:01 AM

1. Donald Trump is a racist pig just like the far right !

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 08:33 AM

2. We should all vote like our lives depend on it,

 

because they do!
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 08:37 AM

3. The blue wave elected people who represented the majorities

 

in their districts -- overwhelmingly. Where on the political spectrum "representative" lay varied, of course, by district. Some strongly liberal districts replaced moderate incumbents with people calling for stronger liberal solutions. BUT, extremely few farther left candidates were elected, and that's because they represent fringe elements, not majorities. The blue wave also showed overwhelmingly that people now understand the need to restore stability and competence to government.

No matter how much you argue against the electability of representative candidates, in favor of radical ones, you're going to be wrong. What you should be arguing for is the value of strong actions that fit within the ideological span of the voting majorities. NOT radical left ones -- those have always been rejected by majorities. Strong solutions that have strong voter support can help stabilize populations. Radical ones imposed without majority support risk destabilization and loss. People tend to understand that even without thinking.

As for Trump, he's naturally at least moderately conservative, especially socially, proven by decades of his own words and actions to be bigoted against many. However, he's too disordered, too focused on seeing everything as about himself, to be strongly politically ideological. His only ideology is his own greatness, "ME," and his goals are always somehow about "ME" and "I want."

I also strongly suspect the energy Trump can expend in antipathy toward minorities is limited for the same reason. Strong bigotry requires focusing outward on its target, and strong racists are frequently consumed with it, while Trump sees others in relation to himself. He is obviously capable of hate, for those who humiliate him or make him feel he's not immensely superior, like Obama, but I see no sign minorities have ever attained that power over his thinking.

Trump persecutes vulnerable groups both because it makes him feel powerful and because feeding his "red in tooth and claw" base gets him the cheers and adulation he craves.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #3)

Sat May 25, 2019, 11:18 AM

8. Yes, some people think Trump is far right because it's

 

the far right who are his staunchest supporters. People like Alex Jones support Trump because they know that all they have to do is flatter him and he'll do or say anything they want. If Democrats flattered him like the alt-righties do, he would be more bipartisan, but Democrats are much less likely to be taken in by flimflam men. It's all about him, and he can't understand why everybody doesn't see that.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to LuvNewcastle (Reply #8)

Sat May 25, 2019, 11:31 AM

10. Yes. He learned long ago by positive feedback where to

 

go for the kind of cultish adulation he seeks. Among the almost everything his supporters don't see is also that once he has power over people he hurts them.

I think of that and wonder how much pleasure he's getting every time he does. For me is always the image of him promising cheering crowds at rally after rally that he's going to have coverage for existing conditions declared unconstitutional. Then when the cheers become more subdued at that, he follows with a rousing booster line like "build that wall!" or "lock her up!" and the cheers regain strength while he stands there grinning. Cruel, cynical manipulation.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Hortensis (Reply #3)

Sun May 26, 2019, 01:29 PM

24. A majority of people

 

agree with some “far left” positions such as universal healthcare and some others that I can’t think of now.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Turin_C3PO (Reply #24)

Sun May 26, 2019, 02:52 PM

25. Fwiw, universal healthcare is in the mainstream, has been for

 

several decades. Powerful anti-tax conservative groups, empowered by the half the electorate that tends to be loyally conservative, had always been able to block comprehensive healthcare reform, even though several presidents, including Nixon and Eisenhower supported it. Until the Obama administration, when they finally lost most of the battle but were able to block the ACA's public option provision.

You know, the argument being pushed by the farther left that the choice is between either "big change" of their choice or "centrist" hardly any change is false -- completely untrue -- and deliberately so.

It's entirely possible to have big, bold solutions accomplished by Democratic legislators through existing systems -- the evil establishment. BUT only when the electorate gives legislators eager to do it enough power.

This is exactly how the giant re-deal of the New Deal programs came about. Socialist, communist and fascist extremists were all demanding revolution in the 1930s, a similarly dangerously unstable era that hurt the middle class into supporting very big actions a majority didn't before. The New Deal accomplished changes and advances that were huge but developed within America's existing systems and thus very quickly integrated into the fabric of America. Then came the Fair Deal, Great Society, etc., and eventually the ACA. And because of the ACA's unavoidably "incremental" advance, not just Democrats but Americans across the political spectrum now want more, want the rest, want what's still needed.

Here's Eisenhower, who had relatives ruined by health problems, speaking against the socialized healthcare Sanders types were pushing for at that time but for a moderate way to provide much needed universal healthcare:

“Legislation which compels you to join in a federal health insurance plan is wrong. It is also wrong—morally and economically wrong—to ignore the health problems of those who cannot pay the cost of adequate medical care. Federal aid to local health plans that helps make medical care available to those who need it is right.”


Of course, back in his day most sick people still died much sooner no matter how available the healthcare of that time was. I doubt he'd think that would be an adequate solution today, when lifelong health maintenance is needed.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 08:39 AM

4. 2018 midterms

 

all the 40 congressional seats we "flipped" from red to blue were in moderate/conservative swing districts and NONE of them were won because of progressive voters.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Vidal (Reply #4)

Sat May 25, 2019, 03:06 PM

14. Exactly.. what I said down thread..

 

The OP does Not know what went on during the 2018 Midterms.. and he shouldn't be trying to re-write it.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 08:41 AM

5. it is good to see the world from a deplorables perspective

 

trump may be as far right as we want to contemplate, but in "conservative" circles he is moderate to "new youk liberal."

1. trump wants to stop immigration. real conservatives want to reverse it.

2. trump want's to destroy government, real conservatives want to abolish it.

3. trump does not want to raise minimum wage. real conservatives think labor laws are communist.

i could go on but real conservatives are at least weekly church goers, and there is no indication that trump is a true believer in anything except money.

If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 09:09 AM

6. i agree.

 

i also think that the candidates will ideally present their true agendas, defend them, and either win or lose based on those policies. i don't want any spin, deflection, sidestepping, pandering. show me who you are, tell me what you stand for. Warren has been at the top of my list for awhile now because in my estimation that is what she does.

i will vote for the democrat. period. until who that is has been decided i will vote for the candidate who comes closest to fulfilling what i want in my candidate.

Also: i have a friend who would love to see a woman president but is convinced that the country will never elect one. phooey! who thought we'd have a black president in this lifetime (not me). If we vote for her she'll win!

it's early days. i believe that Biden is leading the polls because of name recognition. As more and more people get familiar with the others, the numbers will change. The debates will make a big difference in the polls. we'll see what happens.

ETA: that teacher is no centrist. he's misrepresenting himself to you. he's a republican.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Joe Biden

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 09:25 AM

7. Policies matter but so do temperment and search for the truth.

 

For example - Gillibrand disqualified herself to me when she jumped on Franken, ignoring all the facts exonerating him.

I love Liz's policies, for example. and would definitely work my tail off for her if she's the nominee. I think Joe just has the right heart and decent policies and great temperament and can stand toe to toe with assmouth and beat him. Joe was the one who pushed Obama to recognize same sex marriages, Obama wasn't ready but Joe knew it was the right time so pushed successfully. I personally like him the best for these reasons, but won't be bitter if he doesn't prevail and will support the ultimate Dem nominee.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 11:20 AM

9. There's nothing so dangerous as a young, ignorant social studies teacher. Really.

 

This guy is shaping the minds of our kids to his version of reality.

I'm going to make a broad claim, but many people younger than 40 years old have no idea how far things have slid to the right since Reagan. To this teacher, our country being ruled from the center-right to the far right is normal. Kids graduating high school this spring have only known their country to be at war fighting terrorists in the Middle East, and that's what's normal to them.

But you know and I know and Bob Dole knows that Trumpism and a BS war on terror is not normal. What really disturbs me about this teacher you described isn't just his lack a sense of historical perspective because of his young age; it's that he has no historical awareness, either. In other words, he should know better that Trump is indeed far right. This social studies teacher is a truly useful idiot for conservative causes, like gaslighting our kids.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:41 PM

11. To paraphrase, if the far right think you're far right...

 

It almost doesn’t matter what he actually thinks. He’s making use of whomever he can, and the far right believes he supports their anti human policies. I haven’t heard him speak out against a single hate group or give more than thoughts-and-prayers lip service in response to straight up terrorism. Because he’s slippery as a snake and he reinforces the hate that those who need to think it's okay feel.

It’s a simulation of humanity. A terrifying one.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 02:57 PM

12. Interesting discussion.

 

In my time, I have had two opportunities to vote for Joe Biden in the primaries. The first was in 1988. I voted for Jesse Jackson, instead, and Jackson actually won the Democratic primary in my home state of Georgia. In 2008, I voted for John Edwards. I have always been suspicious of the bank's boy, Joe Biden, but that won't stop me from voting for him in the general in 2020. The primaries, however, are a different issue.

Trump, for his part, is nothing ... and I mean nothing. He says what he needs to say on a given day to appeal to the people right in front of him and generate maximum applause. He has no core beliefs. He has no identity, literally. He is a con artist and an affront to the Constitution of the United States of America. It's pointless to try to pidgeonhole him, politically, because his beliefs change rapidly from day to day.

-Laelth
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 03:03 PM

13. I call BULL! trump is the Anti-Christ..

 

tell you teacher I said that.

And, as far as this goes..


We had a blue wave last election because our people showed up, not because we peeled centrists off to vote for us. It will be the same next year if we give them a candidate that excites them.

We had a BLUE WAVE in part because of Nancy Pelosi! 45 Red Seats were Flipped to BLUE.. by MODERATES.. talking about HEALTH CARE.

You can talk all you want about what kind of candidate you want.. But, Don't try to rewrite History. Thank You.

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Cha (Reply #13)

Sun May 26, 2019, 01:55 AM

17. By moderates eh?

 

Lauren Underwood? Katie Porter? Mary Gay Scanlon? Mike Levin?

etc... https://cpc-grijalva.house.gov/caucus-members/
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to progressoid (Reply #17)

Sun May 26, 2019, 02:48 AM

19. Yes, the majority of those who

 

Flipped the Red Seats to Blue Wave are Moderates.

Moderation still won in the midterms – even if moderate Republicans didn’t

Further, nearly all of the Democrats who flipped the seats of moderate Republicans are themselves moderate. Few support the socialist agenda of Senator Bernie Sanders, and more than two dozen have pledged not to support Nancy Pelosi for speaker. So the moderate Republicans’ defeat wasn’t a defeat for moderation overall.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2018/nov/20/moderate-republican-midterm-losses-house

Don't let progressives fool you. Moderate Democrats can win

Their midterm performance proves it. ... November 7, 2018 ... mainstream Democrats who closely matched their purple and red districts or states.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/dont-let-progressives-fool-you-moderate-democrats-can-win/2018/11/07/37648218-e2b1-11e8-ab2c-b31dcd53ca6b_story.html?utm_term=.15d6b70c8326

I like all kinds of Dems who make up the House Victory.. what I don't like is "progressives" acting like there's no room for Moderates across the Country.

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to Cha (Reply #19)

Sun May 26, 2019, 12:58 PM

21. Cool. I see you're gone from 45 seats flipped by moderates,

 

(which is an amazing feat since that's four more than we actually flipped) to a just a majority. Cool.


If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to progressoid (Reply #21)

Sun May 26, 2019, 04:36 PM

27. I see you're deflecting from what I

 

posted about "moderates being the majority".. to zero in on "4 seats".. in your big "gotcha".

I thought I remembered it was 45 at the time.. guess not. Moderates still won the 2018 Midterm Victory for us.


If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 03:47 PM

15. He's right though. My deplorable co-worker told me a year ago that he is afraid of a Biden run. n

 

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sat May 25, 2019, 05:04 PM

16. I will not vote out of fear.

 

I will vote my values.

Centrists, moderates, and corporatists do not represent my values.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to earthshine (Reply #16)

Sun May 26, 2019, 03:50 PM

26. I will vote for whomever is most likely to defeat Trump,

 

despite the fact that my values are, of course, clearly superior to everyone else's - because elections aren't about me getting to feel good about myself for upholding my exquisitely superior values, but about making sure the whole country doesn't go completely to shit because we failed to nominate someone who was acceptable to the majority of Americans.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #26)

Sun May 26, 2019, 05:23 PM

29. So, fear is one of your values?

 

Sorry, Biden is not my guy. He lost me years ago with his gafs, hair smelling (been an issue for a long time), and his grotesque leadership at the Clarence Thomas confirmations.

I'll vote for him against Trump, but that is all.

I believe we have many candidates who can defeat Trump.
If I were to vote in a presidential
primary today, I would vote for:
Undecided

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Response to earthshine (Reply #29)

Sun May 26, 2019, 07:36 PM

30. Where did I say I was supporting Biden? I'm still undecided,

 

but my decision will be made on the basis of which of the candidates is likely to receive the support of enough people (not just the ideologically pure) to defeat Trump. All of the Democrats support the basic principles that the party has advocated for years. One of my "values," for example, is universal healthcare - ideally, Medicare for all. But if Trump is re-elected there will be no Medicare for All, no universal health care of any kind, and we could wind up with Medicare for Nobody. Fear isn't a "value" but if another four years of Trump doesn't scare the crap out of you, you're not paying attention.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Joe Biden

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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #30)

Sun May 26, 2019, 07:52 PM

31. I pretty much agree with your paragraph.

 

Usually, when people say "best to beat Trump" they mean Biden. So, I made an assumption.

As a metaphor, there's a big accident on the road ahead. It must be avoided. But, we need to be concerned about what happens after we pass that mess on the road, too.

I want a candidate that has some plans and vision for what could be.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Undecided

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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 01:55 AM

18. Trump is far right. Right and left have had shifting meanings through American history

 

but Trump is far right in ways that even Reagan and GW Bush weren't. Trump is an authoritarian with fascist tendencies. Fascism from Wikipedia: "characterized by dictatorial power, forcible suppression of opposition, and strong regimentation of society and of the economy." Nationalism is the theme of a far right winger, and that is Trump's calling card. He has even called himself a nationalist. He would like to think of himself as the head of a cult. Now, his economics and social ideals mostly pander to American rightists (who are not fascists) with some exceptions (like accepting gays, or being in favor of importing drugs from Canada), but he does not truly support the absolute free market that American conservatives so favor.

Trump hasn't seized power like a true fascist, but the underpinnings of fascism are there. For example. he seeks to weaken the free press, etc. There is no serious equivalence on the left for the Democratic Party-- candidates would have to be on the road to communism to be true polar opposites to Trump.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to andym (Reply #18)

Sun May 26, 2019, 02:51 AM

20. Thank You! If this isn't

 

far fucking right.. I don't know what is..

Trump hasn't seized power like a true fascist, but the underpinnings of fascism are there. For example. he seeks to weaken the free press, etc. There is no serious equivalence on the left for the Democratic Party-- candidates would have to be on the road to communism to be true polar opposites to Trump.

And, every other freaking thing he's done.. like cozying up to Dictators.. wishing he could be one.

If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to Cha (Reply #20)

Sun May 26, 2019, 01:00 PM

22. Yes. Trump has highlighted the roadmap for a far right fascist to destroy the American Repubic

 

Trump, though far right, is too petty, unfocused, and not clever enough to actually drive the USA to true fascism, but he is a pathfinder for those who might follow. He has degraded American institutions that are key in opposing the rise of a dictator: a free press, and Congress. He is completely willing to use the tools of dictators: lying, gaslighting, and unwarranted attacks on opponents-- calling for an opposition leader, Hillary Clinton, to be locked up, even before he was elected is a hallmark of a third world dictator/fascist. America is probably lucky that Steve Bannon, who appeared to be helping Trump become an effective nationalist, was sidelined early.

The worst thing is Trump has received little blowback from his party, making them willing accomplices to how he has redefined the American Right -- that has surprised me. The "never Trumpers" are only a small minority. The only explanations for the GOP's support of this far right winger include 1) that their party has been subjected to a lot of manipulation in the recent past: constant manipulation by talk radio and Fox and GW Bush's government lying about WMDs have softened their critical thinking. 2) The GOP consists of more people willing to follow authority wherever it leads and they are very tribalistic. 3) Cynical calculation on the part of GOP politicians that they need to follow Trump to keep their jobs or advance.
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Response to andym (Reply #22)

Sun May 26, 2019, 08:50 PM

32. Agree! Except that from what I've read the increase in

 

fascistic attitudes and behaviors among Republican Party leaders and others on the right, very much including massive corruption and election theft, was well under way before Trump ran. Authoritarianism had been growing and accelerated big time in W's administration, with corresponding types like Tom "The Hammer" DeLay in congress.

That has to be why they're aiding instead of stopping him. This disordered bull in a china shop wasn't their choice, but his smashing serves their (and Putin's) purposes, and judicial appointments especially show they do seem to have some kind of ring in his nose.
If I were to vote in a presidential
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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 01:22 PM

23. Donald Trump has no ideology.

 

He promotes whatever program or position gets him the most applause lines at rallies. Until fairly recently he identified as a Democrat since he lived in New York and felt he had to "belong" to the party that controlled NYC's government to get whatever business benefits might accrue. He is an opportunist, pure and simple. He found a niche in the GOP and got himself elected by responding to the ideas the GOP promotes. I have no doubt he's a racist - that's been pretty obvious since he and Daddy got sued for housing discrimination - but his rabid anti-immigrant arguments were put together by Steve Bannon and Stephen Miller because the nuttier wing of the GOP base responded to them. Anti-immigrant rhetoric gets the best applause lines at rallies. He says he wants Hillary locked up because that gets the MAGAts excited, but the Clintons used to be social friends. Trump himself has no problem with undocumented immigrants; he's been hiring them at his resorts for years because they're cheap labor. He's not religious but he courts and placates the evangelical right with promises of conservative judges who oppose abortion - but Trump was pro-choice until it became politically inconvenient (and who knows how many abortions he's secretly paid for?).

Trump is a fake conservative. He's whatever he needs to be to fire up his rapidly-dwindling base. Choosing a far left Democratic candidate because of a perception that it's necessary to oppose a far-right candidate makes no sense when the opposing candidate is in fact merely an opportunist.
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Response to The Velveteen Ocelot (Reply #23)

Sun May 26, 2019, 09:19 PM

33. Basically agree. Any "ideology" would be all about him,

 

his greatness, and his craving for power. And for the most part the only issues he actually cares about are those he sees as about him and what he wants.

I do believe he was obviously moderately conservative by nature and moderately bigoted, and agree he feeds those red in tooth and claw what they want to get their adulation. He seems to hate Obama, but that's focused spite and almost certainly very personal.

That said, whatever he was, over time and under the extremist influences mentioned he's become effectively a RW extremist in pursuit and exercise of personal power, even though he also seems perfectly willing to be moderate or even liberal on things he doesn't care about. I could be wrong, but I suspect he's intimidated by his military power.

Sure hope so, anyway. He's definitely cruel and conscienceless, and we haven't begun to see what he would be capable of.
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Response to wcast (Original post)

Sun May 26, 2019, 05:07 PM

28. He's a hard-core conservative.

 

Whether he's "far right" or not depends on who is doing the interpreting of the term. His stances on issues like the environment and immigration would qualify, in my opinion.



https://www.ontheissues.org/Donald_Trump.htm
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