If we all agree that Joe Biden isn't racist then why does it matter?

[Cary]

It is history. "The moving finger writes and having writ moves on. Nor all thy piety nor thy wit shall lure it back to cancel half a line. Nor all thy words wash out a word of it."

If his record, itself, doesn't disqualify him (which everyone says) then why does it matter how he responds to being attacked for it? That makes no sense. And what does it say about a Democrat who will attack him for it?

How about what the candidates will do going forward? Isn't that what really matters?

I have not made up my mind. I am for anyone who will deliver us from evil.

[JI7]

1. some of the criticism is over his lack of preparation for the debate

more than the issue itself.

[DownriverDem]

26. Don't forget

Obama had a bad debate and he came back strong the next time. Here's something that's true: In politics, when a candidate is attacking, it means they are losing. I wish they would stick with the issues and not attacks.

[ucrdem]

30. Yes I think he was ready for an ambush, but not from Kamala

who has been very close to him. And he did slice her to pieces, only nicely and politely. That's why she's been having to walk it all back.

[Butterflylady]

54. Who would have known

That something that happened over 40 years would come up. I always thought a debate was about the issues of today. Silly me.

[Jarqui]

55. He had 30 seconds to respond to stuff that wasn't accurate

on an issue that has been debated for 70 years or so.

Could he have responded better than he did? Probably (certainly with the 20/20 hindsight of his critics)

But there is virtually no way to satisfactorily respond to what Kamala said in 30 seconds.

How do you prepare for an allegation (a strategized political hit job) that is lacking in truth and accuracy?
You can't specifically. You'd go nuts trying.

[treestar]

57. Why is that so important?

And they can't predict everything.

[Cary]

75. I find that odd, too, Treestar

He is not racist but he has to be able to defend himself against an attack from a Democrat accusing him of something racial 40 years ago but not actually accusing him of being a racist. And of.course we must do this because, of course, the actual racists will do this and I cannot complain about it because if I express my opinion that we shouldn't be smarter and shouldn't be bickering about this nonsense than I am suppressing free speech, don't you know?

[marylandblue]

84. It's important in this election because of Trump.

Trump fights dirty. You have to be fast, clever, and ready for anything, both on the debate stage and off. He has not demonstrated that ability so far.

[treestar]

87. that's the first time on DU that Tangerine Rathead

has been described as fast and clever.

Hillary beat him all three times. He's stupid.

[marylandblue]

88. No, it's not the first time, because I've said stuff like that before.

We underestimated him in 2016 and now we are underestimating him again.

We underestimate him because we see an ignorant person and think he lacks cunning or ability. He has one very important ability: media manipulation. It's his one true talent. He's been doing it his whole life until he became the world's greatest media manipulator. He does it every day, right before our eyes, and we laugh because we think he's just being stupid. But he knows exactly what he's doing.

Whoever we pick has to be media savvy. It's not about winning debates in the usual sense or even about debates at all. Trump won the debate in his own eyes because he knows his audience and he reached them. His audience was the slice of the electorate that would believe whatever he is selling. He also won the Twitter wars and the media wars because he got them to cover what he wanted them to cover and so reached his audience that way too.

Trump is watching Biden from the point of view of media manipulation. He just watched Harris control media coverage for a week because Biden couldn't defend himself in a 40-year old controversy until today. That's more than enough time for Trump. All Trump has to do is make up some BS about anything that happened in the last 40 years, tie Biden to it somehow and the media will cover it as long as he wants, until the next round of BS.

That's what Trump did through all of 2016. It's what he is doing right now. It's how he neutered Mueller, made himself impossible to impeach, gets away with 10 scandals a day and kept 40% of the country loyally at his side. And he's plotting his media campaign right now, test marketing his attacks, to get back that same 6% that put him over the finish line again.

Please let's not underestimate him again.

[emulatorloo]

77. Uh huh

Link to tweet

[Lordquinton]

85. Something something intentional mischaracterization

That's the playbook, right?

[Cary]

11. I haven't heard any suggestion that he engaged in past racism

[emulatorloo]

29. "Alleged"? He has a solid record on Civil Rights. And is doing very well w AA dems

[redstateblues]

34. The old" have you stopped beating your wife"

Biden has no racism in his past

[LakeArenal]

38. Just framing your negative that way continues the mischaracterization that began this fake bs.

[vlyons]

3. It matters if Joe, or any other candidate cannot properly respond to criticism, false accusations

Should Joe get the nomination, I would not put it past the ReThugs to run ads, set up web sites, use social media to pepper AA communities with what a racist Joe is. Ditto run anti-gay propaganda against Buttigieg, or false ads against whatever they perceive as our nominee's greatest weaknesses. It's going to be a dirty tricks campaign from them. The ReThugs know perfectly well that they are despised by the majority of Americans. They are as desperate as a caged animal.

[Cary]

15. If we don't vote then we are screwed

If we vote it doesn't what Republicans say or how much money they spend on sowing discord and discontent.

[Demsrule86]

37. It says more about those who use lies and innuenda to attack a fellow Democrats than it does

about any response...It was a bad thing for Harris to do...and I think judging from the twitter universe, she will regret if she doesn't already.

[treestar]

58. Why?

They don't have to respond to criticism at all. If they'd rather talk about something positive, they can do that. I think the voters are sick of negative campaigning. President Obama didn't do it.

Criticism from Tangerine Idi Amin won't matter. None of it is valid.

[beachbum bob]

4. primary debates are like reality shows, I don;t watch either, I know the

record of Biden and his history and how he can attract voters that have been long lost to the democratic party....no single issue will define Biden any more than it does any candidate, especially from 40 years in the past

[cannabis_flower]

6. Can you tell me his history?

Fill me in because I only know he was the vice president and he was a Senator before that and as a senator he was really cozy with the banking industry and he helped shepherd in a lot of bad drug laws. If he has such a good record what is it. And although I keep getting told that he has evolved I haven't been able to find any evidence he has.

[beachbum bob]

8. start here with the wiki page

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_Biden

[Cary]

16. Really?

Come on.

[redstateblues]

32. He never voted for Reagan. It's ok for your candidate to evolve but not Joe

[Cary]

60. Touche!

[cannabis_flower]

78. Show me some evidence of evolution

Saying that the crack cocaine disparity was wrong is not enough. That's the only comment I've seen about the crime bills. What about the militarization of the police? What about forteiture laws? What about mandatory minimums? What about making drug felons ineligible of college assistance? Eviction from public housing? There was much more than cocaine disparity in those bills and I haven't heard anything about any of it but crack cocaine sentencing disparity.

[LakeArenal]

40. If you haven't personally checked Biden's experience ( I refuse to call it "past")

Are you saying you get your information from what you “hear” other people say?

Folks have been posting his record right here on DU in response to the attacks on his record.

Jim Clyburn and other civil rights leaders support him.

Open minds “hear” both sides of the issues right here on DU

[cannabis_flower]

79. No

When I say heard, I mean heard or read.

[wyldwolf]

5. because as Pete Buttigieg senior adviser Lis Smith said:

“The story of the 2020 Democratic primary shouldn’t be how individual candidates used debates to deep six rivals and push litmus test policies they’re gonna disavow once they get a poll (bounce.)”

[Cary]

12. That just makes so much sense

[ucrdem]

7. It doesn't matter in any real sense. It's an effort to grab some of Biden's AA support.

Which could help Harris in SC but not in IA which has a 2% AA population. On the other hand the perception of duplicity and treachery exposed by Harris' instant walkbacks will probably have a larger effect. Her poll bounce is temporary and it looks like Booker bought himself a one-way ticket to Palookaville.

[beachbum bob]

9. the GOP, Putin all need to have Biden taken out by the primary rivals as all know what

the result will be in Nov 2020 if he isn't.

Many democratic challengers more than happy to do their dirty work as we have seen

[ucrdem]

13. Yep if they take out Biden good luck winning on Reparations for All

One AOC is enough thanks.

[calguy]

14. Harris brought race into the discussion, and that's a mistake

Going down that slippery slope now we're talking about busing and reparations and all the triggers that just plain turn a whole lot of voters away from us.
If I remember correctly, Obama never did talk about those race issues. He always deflected the urges of some to go there. That was one of the big reasons many white voters had no problem voting for a black candidate.
When you bring race issues into the debate, it's a losing proposition. One the republicans are all too skilled at exploiting to our disadvantage.

[Cary]

17. Agreed. And for what purpose?

Making herself look good at our expense.

Is that a quality we want in our candidate?

[ucrdem]

18. Barack Obama never, ever turned it into a weapon to bash anyone.

Not a winger, not a fellow Dem. When the RW came after him on a couple of race issues like Rev. Wright he gave carefully thought-out responses that were so effective they won him a Nobel Peace prize. Kamala's performance will also live in memory but it won't win any prizes.

(corrected)

[Cha]

21. Do you mean

Harris'?

[ucrdem]

23. Yes thanks, I keep making that mistake

I better stick with Kamala . . .

p.s. she is still my top choice for veep but I'm not placing any bets on it

[Cha]

31. lol..

We all have our little mixups.

I had the best 4th of July Fireworks right out my window. They were at the stadium and I could see it out of my North window. They were spectacular.. like multicolored stars falling, in big bursts, from the sky!

[ucrdem]

33. That must have been noisy LOL!

Morning, Cha!

[Cha]

36. I've always loved Fireworks!

Like almost everybody else in the World.. but I've never been able to see them from my own home before. It felt special. lol They were pretty far away.. It was more beautiful than noisy.

G'Day, ucr

[ucrdem]

90. This year we have fireworks and earthquakes. . .

Big one yesterday, a bigger one tonight, and more to come!

[Cha]

91. Wow! Did you feel the

Earth move?

I felt it twice when I lived in San Diego back in the '80s. It's unreal.. I had no idea what was happening having been my first.

[ucrdem]

92. I didn't feel it but I noticed the lights swaying

I was at a gym on a treadmill and noticed the TV I was looking at swaying so I paused the treadmill and noticed all the lights and TVs swinging away ... it sounds like it was a 7.1, Northridge was a 7.4 I think, Sylmar was about the same, but no collapses reported it sounds like tonight, so I guess we're learning how to build better . . .

[Cha]

93. Good for California learning

how to build better!

We're better at building houses and buildings with hurricane clips now after our really big one(Iniki) on 9/11/92.

That must have been weird seeing all the lights and tvs swinging!

[ucrdem]

94. It was strange.

Not my first rodeo but the building is fairly new and other than the swinging fixtures no other sign or sound, that I heard anyway. Not too many people noticed in fact until the story showed up on the TVs.

[calguy]

41. Yes! My point exactly.

[hedda_foil]

28. It wasn't the right wing that went after Obama on Wright. It was Hillary's campaign.

May 2008.

[ucrdem]

35. It was the Rush Limbaugh crowd.

They were on it like flies on rice.

p.s. that one was intentional ..

[Demsrule86]

42. Right wing video...Hillary was asked to comment on it...and in my opinion and she shouldn't have.

but it came from the right ...not like the attacks on Biden...and Harris accused Joe of being a racist...in ' a have you stopped beating your wife kind of way...and now has to walk back her remarks...she is dead to me in a primary...in a general any Democratic nominee has my vote but not the primary or any primary ever. I still say Biden is the only one who can win a general given the states we need.

[Cary]

20. I hope that's an overstatement Bob

The stakes are just too high for us to have monkeys flinging poop.

[beachbum bob]

25. more true than not I am afraid to say

little fear in GOP/trump/Putin from any other democratic candidate except Biden as he wold bring back the white working class voter to democrats. Something we have not had in many presidential elections in past 30 years.

Hardcore socialism doesn't resonate with most of working america and that is what GOP would leverage against others. We are in are own bubble most of the time in DU

[Turin_C3PO]

39. Sorry, I don't buy that only Biden can win.

And “hardcore socialism” is being proposed by exactly zero of our candidates. That’s a right wing talking point that the GOP will paint Biden with also. Plus, according to a study, the public is more liberal than they’ve been in fifty years. The public believes in climate change, is pro choice, is pro universal healthcare, pro gun control, for higher income taxes on wealthy, for a wealth tax, etc.

Another thing is that the GOP has managed to win with most people not agreeing with most of their positions. But they had a compelling messenger. That’s what we need to pass progressive policy. Someone like Biden or Warren who can sell their plans to the public.

I believe Biden would win with the largest margin. But there’s no reason to think Warren,Harris, Buttigieg, etc. couldn’t win either. Biden isn’t the beginning and end of our party.

[Demsrule86]

43. Most have taken positions way too far to the left to win the rust belt.

[Turin_C3PO]

46. Trump took positions to the far right

of the public yet he won. It’s the messenger and we have several candidates who can deliver in that regard.

[shanny]

51. you keep saying that

as if addressing economic issues wouldn't fly in the rust belt lol

[stonecutter357]

10. let's go Joe !

[onetexan]

19. "what does it say about a Democrat who will attack him for it? "

WELL SAID

[Cary]

22. Let's not make too much of that, yet

But we do need to keep our discipline and our candidates need to know that. How about our candidates showing leadership that way? After all, after their victory they will have to unify us like never before to clean up the fascists mess and repair the fascist damage.

[Politicub]

45. Nothing. There is a primary happening. People line up behind candidates they support.

After some people post something like, "what does that say about someone to do something like that?" and feign shock, they will turn around and attack someone else in the next post.

I'm surly today. There's a lot of garbage being posted this morning.

[onetexan]

63. one thing's for sure: a stunt like that sure doesn't leave a good first impression

i had much respect for Kamala up until this stunt she pulled. For a young senator still wet behind the ears in terms of political experience to be attacking a highly skilled politician with an impeccable track record took alot of nerves. And not in a good way.

[Politicub]

68. I guess I'm more meta about the exchange - the moment it

happened and how it continues to play out.

The reason I’m looking at it in this way is because our candidate will need to be adept at seizing the spotlight. That’s one of the capabilities that will be important in the general election to take on an outrageous man like Trump who has a feral instinct for publicity.

I hope Joe shows he can generate some moments in the debates. It’s harder for him in a lot of ways since he’s a moderate and wants to get some conservative support (as evidenced by him reaching out to NRA members and taking a middle-road position on healthcare).

Bill Clinton was also a moderate with a few liberal positions. He famously and very publicly demonstrated his “I’m not a scary liberal and will stand up to the black community” by taking a rapper to task about some extreme remarks she made in the time of the Los Angeles riots. And the Sista Soljah moment was born.

I think that anyone wanting to cast himself as a left-of-center moderate who will stand up to parts of the democratic base will have his own Sista Soljah moment. It will look ugly and the left will hate it, but he’ll be able to turn the publicity into something that will attract more people than it will repel.

That may be the winning approach again. We’ll know in short order.

[marylandblue]

24. When you run for President, everything you said or did in you entire life

is subject to intense scrutiny and criticism. Anything you don't hear about in the primary WILL be brought up in the general. I'd rather hear about it now and see how Biden deals with it.

[Demsrule86]

44. No, doubt Harris will find this out. But this was an attack without merit complete with t-shirts.

She has now walked it back...I find it disgusting. And I would no matter who the candidate was.

[Cary]

49. We live in interesting times

We need discipline, not excuses.

[marylandblue]

52. When you figure out a way to discipline candidates in the primary and internet era,

let us know. In the days of smoke filled rooms, party bosses imposed discipline. If you didn't keep them happy, you didn't get nominated. Primaries ended that, but at least the bosses controlled the money pots, and the press would punish anyone who drifted too far left or right.

What now? You reach your audience and raise your money on line. Cable news thrives on controversy not ral news. You don't have to please party bosses, you just have to rile up your supporters enough to send money and vote.

[Cary]

59. That sounds to me like an excuse

It isn't complicated. You just do it.

[marylandblue]

61. It sounds to me like you think what we do on DU actually matters.

And somehow if we just shut up the candidates will all act nice and the media won't act like the media.

Alternatively, maybe you would just like those who disagree with you to shut up, since you are dismissing my actual opinion as an "excuse."

"Complicated" is not the point. I am just not going to do it, and a lot of other people also won't. Do you have a way of forcing us to conform? Because complaining or scolding won't work.

[Cary]

65. And that too is an excuse

I don't know and I don't care how much DU does or does not matter.

But I can tell you this (no reference to you intended): I have learned here at DU something about trolls luring me into petty debates replete with ad hominem, sealioning, and gaslighting. I can identify distinct groups who do this, and distinct groups who accept me in spite of the fact that I am not in lockstep.

[marylandblue]

66. Sure, the internet is full of trolls. Don't feed them.

I'm not sure what I'm making an excuse for. Trolling? If I don't like what someone is saying I just don't engage.

[Vegas Roller]

27. Biden never was a racist and he is not one now.

All this busing stuff was a political hit job. First by David Sirota et al and then exploited by another candidate.

It will be seen as silly in the end.

[onetexan]

71. spot on. Biden was VP for America's first black POTUS for God's sake

that anyone would attack his civil rights record and try to take him to task on it was ludicrous, nevermind a young senator. She should have been taking swipes at the dangerous fool in the WH, not trying to knock down an accomplished colleague whose way more experienced than her. She now has to continue to dig herself out of an impossible situation she created. The pundits have begun to call her out on the busing issue and she's already backtracking. Lame.

[LibFarmer]

47. Without such insinuations

how can they Hillarify Biden? It is de ja vu to me.

[Kahuna7]

64. Exactly. "Super-predators," worked so well against Hillary, makes sense

to do it again.

[StarfishSaver]

48. This is the kind of binary argument that makes discussions about race very difficult

The question is not whether he is a racist. I don't think anyone in the right mind thinks he is a racist or anything close to it.

The question is how he is handled matters of race. That's a different issue.

Race doesn't live in a set spot with oy two options where we're either David Duke or Martin Luther King. Most of us are somewhere in the middle, doing the best we can to be on the MLK end of the spectrum. We slide back and forth in our range, sometimes doing better, sometime slipping. We all have biases and prejudices. There's nothing wrong or evil about that. That's just human nature. The question is how do we recognize, acknowledge and address them.

The problem is that whenever we do try to have conversations about how we can do better, those conversations are often shut down by defensive cries of "you're calling me/him/her/us a racist!"

Yes, sometimes these conversations are uncomfortable - it's never easy to reflect and confront our own biases. But until we are able to have uncomfortable conversations on race, we're never going to make the progress we all want to make.

Looking at and even criticizing a politician's record on race relations and civil rights is not an attack and saying that he or she could have done better and urging them to reflect on and reconsider positions they've taken in the past is not an accusation of racism. And anyone truly interested in racial reconciliation and understanding should work on being less defensive and more open to this kind of self-reflection, analysis and honest discussion.

[Cary]

50. As opposed to "the other kind of 'binary argument'" where the racists divide us

And they gain power and legitimacy.

Good thinking. (rolling eyeballs)

[marylandblue]

53. How about we don't have binary arguments at all?

And don't paper over our differences for fear someone might notice that we are a coalition of competing interests commonly called a "political party."

I certainly would be mortified if the Republicans found out we think for ourselves sometimes and some of our candidates aren't saints. I'm wringing my hands just thinking about it.

[Cary]

56. How about we focus on winning in 2020?

And then we have a nice debate on race as we figure out how best to make sure the real racists are back under their rock where they belong?

[StarfishSaver]

62. Here's the problem with that suggestion

If we shut up about race until we win, then we'll be told to shut up about it so we can win again.

We've been told to be quiet about this for decades. This isn't really about a concern over winning. It's about kicking the can down the road so some people don't ever feel uncomfortable. How much longer are we supposed to hold our tongues in order not to rock the boat?

And we don't need a "nice debate" about putting racists under a rock. We need a vigorous, sometimes painful debate about how we can all do better on race and how to eliminate the systemic inequalities in this country. That requires much more than a "nice debate" and is about more than pointing fingers at the stereotypical villains.

And haven't we been having some pretty intense discussions here about how, on another issue, we shouldn't worry about politics but should just do the right thing, regardless whether it helps or hinders us in the next election?

[marylandblue]

67. Because, like every society, we have divisions.

And those divisions bubble to the surface when they will. The divisions don't get better by ignoring them so we can win elections. If you ignore them, they get worse so that we lose elections.

[Cary]

72. Making sure we are in a position to fix the problems isn't "ignoring."

It is practical and of critical importance.

Critical importance.

[marylandblue]

83. Of course, but how do we get there? Who is best to lead us there?

These are questions we need to ask before the nomination, not after. I really wish we had some more options in 2016. I think the outcome would have been very different.

[Cary]

86. We are who we have been waiting for

If WE, THE PEOPLE turn out and vote then they must listen to us. If we bullshit, bicker and bluster then we get what we deserve.

[silentEcho]

69. I think it is more a conversation about privilege and how that affects perceptions and decisions.

I know in 2016 we often stated Sanders was not a racist or sexist before conversations about his past that had more to do with privilege and his inability to come to terms that certain groups are affected by that privilege.

It is the same reason why we do not want a panel of 15 men deciding women's health issues without any women's voice in the mix. I think it is important to point out privilege to understand the impact on groups lives. That is one of the things I appreciate with Beto, his acknowledgment of his privilege in having a discussion about women or minorities.

[Cary]

74. Would you rather have it with Unindicted Co-Conspirator in the White House?

[silentEcho]

82. I'm sorry? Huh?

Black men are being murdered, blacks harassed while simply walking thru their day. Girls are being raped and the rapist texts out that he raped, while a judge states being from a good home equals no prison for raping a girl. Latinos are being caged.

I think it is important we have a conversation with old white men. They are deciding the fate of our lives. Even those that are on our side, but simply were raised in a time joking endearingly to a nation while focused on a thirteen yr old girl and then allow the audience to speculate on her sex life. Then point to the male sibling and telling him her sexuality is his responsibility.

I want to talk about that. I want someone who sees the issue in that. Not condemnation, nor flogging or hanging. And certainly not burning at the stake. But at least recognize why women have an issue with an "uncle" focusing on our 13 yr old daughter, and her sexuality. Then empowering the brother.

Those things matter to me.

[Tarheel_Dem]

70. We all knew it was coming, I'm just surprised at who it's coming from. My 2nd & 3rd choices...

have now moved to the very bottom of the list right after Tulsi Gabbard & Marianne Williamson. I can't believe I ever wanted either of them to be on the ticket.

[Cary]

73. I can't believe people don't understand why attacking each other is a bad idea

VOTE DEMOCRATIC!

[Tarheel_Dem]

81. If a weakened nominee limps through to the general, they'll be so battered & bruised...

it will only work to the benefit of the GOP, up & down the ticket. It's pretty simple really.

[Jakes Progress]

76. I look at it as a chance for the candidates

to show they have learned from their mistakes. I would rather have a candidate who learns from their mistakes than one who claims never to have made a mistake.

[Mike Nelson]

80. If I recall...

… Biden denied he was a racist, which wasn't explicitly asserted... so, that became a question... and a very strange one...

[Bettie]

89. The question for me wasn't actually about the busing...

it was when she asked if the local government is not doing what needs to be done, does the federal government need to step in.

He did not answer that question as far as I heard.

That is an important question, beyond any particular issue and it makes a big difference overall.

[Cary]

95. That makes sense.

Thank you.

[Gothmog]

96. Joe Biden is the most electable candidate that the Democratic Party has available

Link to tweet

[Cary]

97. That is becoming apparent, Gothmog

Kamala Harris' gambit seems to have backfired but it's still early.