Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumIs Joe Biden the new Ed Muskie? ...
https://www.salon.com/2019/08/31/is-joe-biden-the-new-ed-muskie-a-cautionary-tale-of-the-1972-frontrunner/Is Joe Biden the new Ed Muskie? A cautionary tale of the 1972 frontrunner
Democrats are beginning to reckon with the fact that, right now, the story of the 2020 election looks likely to end with Joe Biden being elected president.
That is very far from saying that Biden is a sure thing. Early frontrunners stand a pretty good chance of becoming a party's presidential nominee, as Hillary Clinton did four years ago. But Democrats can look to their own past for a legendary example of a frontrunner who was viewed as a consensus, "moderate" candidate and who went down in flames.
That happened in the tumultuous election of 1972, when Richard Nixon was running for re-election. He appeared beatable, thanks to a weakening economy, accusations of corruption (although the Watergate scandal hadn't begun to dominate the news) and continued civil unrest. On the other hand, Nixon had substantive foreign policy achievements: He was winding down the war in Vietnam and opening diplomacy with China, which would lead to his famous handshake with Mao Zedong.
During the year before the election, Sen. Edmund Muskie of Maine a laconic, inoffensive mainstream Democrat who had been Hubert Humphrey's running mate during the 1968 election led in most primary polls and tended to do well against Nixon in one-on-one matchups. Muskie was seen as acceptable to most factions of the Democratic Party, except the far left: He was liberal but not radical; he favored ending the war in Vietnam but was a staunch anti-Communist. His nomination seemed assured and a victory over Nixon was at least plausible. Much of the smart money in politics saw Muskie as the next president.
(more) https://www.salon.com/2019/08/31/is-joe-biden-the-new-ed-muskie-a-cautionary-tale-of-the-1972-frontrunner/
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
hlthe2b
(102,276 posts)We are doing Muskie comparisons? REALLY?
Damn...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
samnsara
(17,622 posts)..i remember thinking WHO IS THIS PERSON? when Bill Clinton was amongst the candidates during our caucuses.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)Biden's number are still strong. DU's preference is by more left leaning folks than nation wide.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
onetexan
(13,041 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cattledog
(5,914 posts)because of dirty tricks by the Nixon WH. McGovern got the nomination and look what happened.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NYMinute
(3,256 posts)Matthew Rozsa is "concern-trolling" for the far left and to create new anti-Biden narratives.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
still_one
(92,190 posts)anti-Hillary OP Eds as they could
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)At least as I could see. He seems pretty level-headed. The title of the article doesn't really reflect what the author is getting at.
I think the poster here thinks it is a bad article for Biden, but it is not at all.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
still_one
(92,190 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 1, 2019, 08:37 AM - Edit history (2)
I stopped reading them because their anti-Hillary one-sided bias was so evident.
Perhaps they are now more objective, and present ALL views since then, but they left a very bad taste in my mouth
https://www.politico.com/media/story/2016/05/the-fall-of-saloncom-004551
I also do not think it is valid to make a comparison between 1972 and today, though the resurgence of overt racism is unfortunately alive and well, and that is extremely troubling
It is also way too early to make pronouncements of "sure things"
Muskie's downfall came at the expense of the illustrious press before the NH primary, when they accused him of crying when an editor of a NH Newspaper impugned Muskie's wife's character.
Muskie denied that he "cried", and said it was outrage and anger he was expressing toward Loeb for lying about his wife. Loeb was extremely anti-Muskies, and referred to him as "Moscow Muskie"
The cards were stacked against him, and the media in general was NOT fair at all in their coverage
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
comradebillyboy
(10,147 posts)turned into. I have similar feelings about HuffPo as well.
I'm an old guy and I remember the 1972 elections. I don't see much similarity between then and now. Comparing Biden to Muskie is sort of meaningless.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
still_one
(92,190 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NYMinute
(3,256 posts)and not the whole article ... it is still damaging.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
still_one
(92,190 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BooScout
(10,406 posts)I don't think it's a particularly bad article for anyone. I think it points to what we might learn from history. To me, the article was interesting. Nothing nefarious was intended on my part.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Fiendish Thingy
(15,611 posts)With a few exceptions, most of the primary season articles were pro Hillary.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
elocs
(22,574 posts)Imagine how history would have been changed if Muskie had defeated Nixon.
But not to worry next year because it's a lock that anyone the Democrats nominate will beat Trump.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
OKNancy
(41,832 posts)The point was that the Democrats messed up by not nominating the cooler Muskie and instead went for McGovern (who lost big)
An excerpt
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Cattledog
(5,914 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
still_one
(92,190 posts)the publisher of the Union Leader Newspaper, William Loeb, a liar, and lambasting him for impugning the character of his wife.
That "cool, calm, image" was completely destroyed by the press, from the Washington Post, CBS News, to the Boston Globe, saying that Muskie broke down and cried.
The NY Times who was there, was one of the few outlets who could not confirm that.
That effectively did him in. It was viewed as a "sign of weakness" at the time
Nixon and his henchmen were actively doing their dirty tricks also. The cards were stacked against the Democrats from the get go, and no matter who our candidate was in 1972, it would have been very tough for Democrats to win. Nixon's Southern racist strategy was in full force then, and Wallace ran as a Democrat in the 1972 primaries on his segregationist, racist platform, which only helped Nixon's Southern Strategy
If Bobby Kennedy hadn't been taken from us in 1968, I think a lot of things would have been different
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bigtree
(85,996 posts)...on experience and stature.
So this article is bullshit right from the first sentence.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mr_liberal
(1,017 posts)....the two McGovern-style progressives in the race, Elizabeth Warren and Bernie Sanders.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
still_one
(92,190 posts)tricks, Watergate, his racist southern strategy, and George Wallace running as a "Democrat" on a segregationist platform.
What is concerning is that many of those same factors in 1972 have re-emerged, and that is very concerning
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Otto Lidenbrock
(581 posts)Because it turned out the guy was medically treated for depression in the 60s. It was a time when depression was seen in a negative light and there was a lot of fearmongering over a "mentally unstable man being a heartbeat away from the presidency".
McGovern initially stood by his man but he eventually was pushed into switching which also made McGovern look a dithering decision maker.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Always Randy
(1,059 posts)Warren is certainly loved by us Democrats, but the loathing and fear of Warren by the GOP will make them galvanize is a much stronger way than they did against McGovern. I do think Biden can swing a lot of the GOP in the general.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)I think she might be too academic. She doesn't break down her ideas about the economy in easy to understand ways. She also seems to be a little emotionally distant. I think Biden is really good at keeping his message simple. He has great empathy. It's really too bad he wasn't the presumptive nominee in 2016, because he had put in his time as VP and deserved it.
I think who he picks as VP will be important because if he decides to be a one term president, that person will need to be the presumptive nominee.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Ba2020
(20 posts)That's what's giving me reluctance in backing her fully. Right now she is my third choice,after Harris and Buttigied. And there's that the whole DNA thing she bungled up badly. Biden is too old school.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Buckeyeblue
(5,499 posts)But we might need him as a transitional president. We should have learned our lesson with Obama's successful presidency and nominated youngish intelligent people. As much as I like Hillary, she was not the right person to run last time. But her running scared off others (I think).
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
delisen
(6,043 posts)and she is respected by many Wall Street and investment oriented voters-who acknowledge that she at least knows what she is talking about even though they are apprehensive about regulation.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Always Randy
(1,059 posts)that apprehension will be a battle cry for the wealthy and the GOP-----and the anti-Hillary crowd is alive and well----don't get me wrong about Warren----I like what she says and does---I just don't think she would fare well in the general--
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
delisen
(6,043 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LincolnRossiter
(560 posts)+1.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LongtimeAZDem
(4,494 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
vsrazdem
(2,177 posts)All the talk about electability means nothing when you look at where we are in this county today. I will vote for whoever has a D next to their name, and I believe most of the country will also.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
yardwork
(61,608 posts)That's an election that Democrats should have won. Muskie's campaign was destroyed by a biased media doing the bidding of Nixon's ratfuckers.
Then, Democrats nominated George McGovern, a decent but not charismatic war veteran who had been a capable senator - and we allowed the media to destroy his campaign as well. McGovern was unfairly cast as a "wimp," similar to the way John Kerry was swiftboated.
The same people who ran Nixon's dirty tricks in 1972 were back to do the same against Gore and Kerry in 2000 and 2004. Roger Stone is still here. There is a lesson in 1972 for us today. It doesn't matter who we choose as our candidate if we allow the Republicans and the media to lie about our candidates.
Remember the Dean Scream. That was Muskie redux.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
calguy
(5,309 posts)Are more skilled, more experienced, and much better funded than Nixon's henchmen ever were. We must not take these people lightly. That's why I think Joe gives us our best chance. As good Warren is, I really think the modern day dirty tricksters would rip her to shreds.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
yardwork
(61,608 posts)In 2016, many Democrats helped the Republicans destroy a great candidate. In 2004 we allowed them to cast John Kerry as a coward. They will lie, cheat and steal. We have to stop enabling them.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
You nailed it in one.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
yardwork
(61,608 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LincolnRossiter
(560 posts)Does this guy have a relevant or salient point?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
paleotn
(17,913 posts)The whole premise is BS. Nixon in 72 was absolutely nothing like IQ45. And Biden is not Muskie by any means. And this isn't early 70's America. Projecting into the future from similar circumstances in the past is fraught with danger. Just ask the Wall Street guys. But this comparison is so apples to watermelons it's ridiculous from the start.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bucolic_frolic
(43,161 posts)in fact, beef is the new egg, and laetrile is the new cure for cancer. Not only that Edsel is the latest pickup, and Nike is the new coiffure. I mean, the thoughts of this writer are so de rigeur unnecessary! Someone didn't take their meds.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Polly Hennessey
(6,796 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Baclava
(12,047 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Gothmog
(145,231 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 1, 2019, 01:30 PM - Edit history (1)
Nixon got to pick the Democrat he ran against. trump does not want to run against Biden and so we are seeing a ton of attacks on Biden that are really weak. Gaffes will not be an issue the 2020 general election given trump's lies and inability to speak
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
treestar
(82,383 posts)Donnie Dotard has zip.
But it sounds like we should not let Biden fall like Muskie did.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BlueWI
(1,736 posts)Last edited Sun Sep 1, 2019, 01:49 PM - Edit history (1)
I'm pretty skeptical about all of the alleged parallels between 1972 and 2020. They all need to stop.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
highplainsdem
(48,978 posts)anti-Biden piece comparing Biden to Warren G. Harding.
Oh, the desperation of Biden critics...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,693 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Drunken Irishman
(34,857 posts)Muskie probably would have made it closer than McGovern, who ran one of the worst presidential campaigns in modern American history, but he would have struggled to beat Nixon, whose popularity was trending upward throughout most '72.
The better question is if Watergate still happens with Muskie as the nominee.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,693 posts)While it's generally true that lessons can be learned from history, there is very little in our recent history that is analogous or similar to the election and administration of Trump. Consequently, to compare any election to the most recent one, or especially to the upcoming one, is pretty useless. Biden may be ideologically similar to Muskie, but if he's nominated he'll be running against someone who is not Nixon in any respect except as to to criminality (and in '72 the details of Watergate were not yet known). And even Nixon's criminality pales beside Trump's. Nixon seemed to be, and for the most part was, a conventional and thoroughly mainstream Republican, not in any way extreme for the time or anti-establishment - Nixon was the Establishment.
And, as the article acknowledged, Nixon did have some foreign policy successes, while Trump has been nothing but a disaster in that area. And neither Warren nor Sanders is the analog of McGovern, who ran on a single issue: opposition to the Vietnam war. In 2020 there will be multiple issues, not the least of which is the sheer awfulness of Trump himself. The election of Trump was a black swan event, and his administration and the effect on the political landscape isn't like anything that has happened before. This is terra incognita, and dumb articles like this don't tell us anything.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
myohmy2
(3,163 posts)...safe establishment candidate Muskie became a fish out of water...
...to be the leading candidate at this stage of the race is more of a curse than a blessing...sustaining daily attacks and criticism weakens most candidates by the time of the primaries...
...the steady plowing of the electorate field by Bernie will yield him a harvest of many more votes in 5 months...
...Godspeed, Bernie...
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
qazplm135
(7,447 posts)Nixon was weak but a "normal" President with positives and negatives. So, pretty much like a large number of incumbent Presidents.
Trump is weak, not a normal President, with a ton of negatives and almost no positives.
So, yeah, no. He's near the bottom of my primary list, but if he wins the nomination, he can win just like the rest of our candidates.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Mike Nelson
(9,955 posts)... Muskie and Biden were/are the "establishment" candidate? Otherwise, I don't see any startling similarity.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden