Biden to coal miners "Learn to code."

[Quixote1818]

Democratic presidential contender and Joe Biden has some advice for the recently disrupted: learn to program.

At a rally in Derry, New Hampshire on Monday, per the Washington Post’s Dave Weigel, Biden talked about how unemployed miners and coal workers who have lost their jobs in recent years can find “jobs of the future” if they “learn to program.” Referencing his role in a Barack Obama-era programming skills initiative in schools, Biden commented that “Anybody who can go down 3000 feet in a mine can sure as hell learn to program as well... Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn how to program, for God’s sake!”

https://gizmodo.com/biden-to-coal-miners-learn-to-code-1840735758

[Joe941]

1. He just wrote the script for a tRump TV advertisment.

These things are a liability.

[George II]

8. Some would like to think that, but he didn't. People should look at EXACTLY what he said....

....in it's entirety.

[pangaia]

19. Where is his full statement? I read the link but perhaps missed it..

[redqueen]

144. Here's some video

Link to tweet

[pangaia]

162. thanks.....

[Blue_true]

105. George, you know the Press won't present the entire statement.

Just like it didn't present Hillary's entire statement when she made that famous, "my plans will take away your jobs" statement. Biden is saying that younger miners and their children must prepare for jobs of the future, like Hillary said, that is their only way out of the poverty that Trump is ok with keeping them in.

Biden's message is going to be a tough sell for those people, but the reality, again, is that his vision is the only one that can work to their benefit. Hopefully the New Democratic Governor of Kentucky helps by starting to bring job training programs to coal country and improving K-12 education there. If Beshear's plans are really bubbling in late 2020, it is going to be hard for Trump to counter-message Biden, especially after how the ousted republican governor that Trump vigorously campaigned for totally ignored the plight of laid off coal country workers.

[crazytown]

10. "the script for a tRump TV advertisment"

which won't work against Biden for the reason it didn't work against Reagan, and won't work against Trump - teflon. Some politicians have it, and some don't (think Gore and the internet).

[brooklynite]

116. I think the Ukraine story shows he doesn't have Teflon...

He took a hit, whether it was long term damage or not.

[UniteFightBack]

120. Anyone who lets Biden talk a hit over the Ukraine 'story' is doing dumps work for him. nt

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

176. That's true about Joe... good observation.

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[redqueen]

145. This is his this attempt to secure the nomination.

'Teflon' really does not apply here

[crazytown]

147. What I am talking about is a poor (or worse) choice of words

sticking to a candidate.

[OKNancy]

15. really, you think miners are too dumb to learn coding?

[Voltaire2]

21. Do you think that is good advice?

[John Fante]

43. Absolutely.

Coal is a dying industry. Even Derp Fuhrer hasn't been able to slow its downward spiral.

Adapt or... you know the rest.

[Joe941]

59. While true it's not good politics.

[Blue_true]

108. Biden's words can be reformed to talk about training for the jobs of the future.

Trump ignoring striking coal miners who were fighting to get their last paycheck can't be reworded. Trump did what he did on several trips a few miles away from where the miners were fighting for their back pay.

[LanternWaste]

207. Nor is instructing anyone to be respectful so they don't get shot.

(distinction lacking relevant difference coming soon to a movie theater near you!)

[Joe941]

215. That statement is taken out of context.

Bernie was making the point that there is a double standard and its unfair.

[Voltaire2]

101. The chances of transitioning from coal miner

to ‘coder’ are extremely poor, even better, the cost of appropriate training is high, and the number of ‘coding’ jobs in, for example West Virginia, is near zero.

So why is this good advice?

[Blue_true]

114. Turn "coding" into "the jobs of the future".

I for one think that there is plenty of jobs of the future in coal country. The key is that a leader has to be chosen that see their problems and figured out a way to help them move forward instead of lying to them.

I live in a part of Florida that transitioned from a natural tourism industry to a healthcare and healthcare science industry by taking advantage of what was naturally happening in the region. People in coal country need consistent healthcare and dental care. They live in some of the most beautiful country in the nation. They have specific healthcare needs like lung and heart illnesses and high incidents of diabetes. In providing for their immediate needs, a skill leader can build several new industries throughout the region, they can become world leaders in treating lung and heart illnesses and building advanced medical devices and medicines that help in both, there are plenty of patients to help and learn from, as well as young people that can be trained to take the local jobs that start developing, all that is needed is a leader instead of a lying charlatan. Biden campaigned his ass off for Steve Beshear, hopefully Governor Beshear will have some programs going on in coal country to help miners and their children transition to a sound future, his father made a lot of progress in coal country before that asshole Blevin undone some of the progress.

Coal country can become a leader in some forms of specialized healthcare and dental care (advanced dental composites and techniques for installing the composites into people's mouths), as well as Eco-tourism (a thoughtful leader helps fund bed and breakfast industries that cater to city people that visit) and medical tourism (people from around the world come for treatment of lung, heart and diabetes ailments that coal country transforms into being a leader treating and doing research in). Yes, a lot of it is difficult, but no more difficult that bringing free college to the whole nation, stuff that you think is totally possible. It is just a matter about how people want to see problems, do they take the route of my area of Florida, or do they say that change is impossible and buy in to lies.

[Voltaire2]

134. They need jobs of the now.

“Learn to code” was shit advice.

[Hav]

137. It wasn't just a flippant "Learn to code" to a coal worker

asking for an alternative to a dying industry. It was that you can learn to code as in a belief to mastering that challenge. "Learn to code" was the dumbed down headline by a biased writer, taken out of context for those too lazy to read but too willing to go for controversies.
And programming is a "job of the now" and has been for decades

[Voltaire2]

138. Sure. Perhaps you can discuss this rephrasing with Biden's advisors.

When you have to explain what your candidate actually meant, something is wrong.

[Hav]

139. I have to explain it to those

who couldn't bother to read the article and the context surrounding the dumbed down clickbait headline.
I don't have to explain it to those who read more than 3 words before chiming in.

[Voltaire2]

140. See post 138.

[Hav]

142. See post 139

and just admit you fell for the clickbait. I understand, it's embarrassing.

[LanternWaste]

209. I realize it can be tough to infer the obvious.

But sometimes that pretense is so damned obvious as to be absurd.

[lapucelle]

153. It's not like he told them to write a best selling book. N/T

[Joe941]

117. Right. The advice seems a bit out of touch.

Coal miners might be better transitioning to welders, mechanics, railroad workers, etc.

[Blue_true]

171. A lot of truth to what you wrote Joe.

But jobs like coding and information systems management can be done remotely. If companies in Silicon Valley, Seattle, Boston, Northern Virginia, can send code writing and information system jobs that they can't fill locally to India or the Phillipines, they certainly can send the job to coders and computer systems people that live in coal country and have gotten the right government sponsored training. All that is needed is a leader who will work toward a societal goal instead of filling his pockets like Trump is doing.

You are right. There are people in coal country that can step right into machinist and took/diemaker jobs, as well as mechanic jobs. What they need is some backstop to allow them to move into those jobs without piling up debt and/or starving.

Nothing in life that is meaningful is easy. It may take a decade and a half of hard work, but coal country can be put on a solid future track, while people that need jobs and money now can be taken care of. I believe that some form of government make work is justified when a clear-headed end goal is kept in sight.

[totodeinhere]

219. That's why we need a lot more government funding for retraining programs.

Of course we won't have a chance of getting that unless there is a Democrat in the White House and we control both the House and the Senate.

[Blue_true]

107. Young miners and their children learning the skills of the future is the only way

out for them. I always think that Joe Biden should take about 10 seconds to think about his answer before speaking, but he is who he is, inartfully speaking the truth. He could have said that younger miners and their children need to focus on getting the skills of the future and that his programs would help older miners with income and healthcare, but such a total answer doesn't fit is a soundbite. Let Trump do a coal country tv commercial, there is plenty of counter-programming that can be done about his neglect for coal workers over the last 3 years, even campaigning for a governor that was ignoring laid off coal miners. Trump said nothing about those miners not tried to visit with them on several trips to the area.

[Voltaire2]

109. The younger ones might have a chance.

But they are going to have to relocate, go deep into debt, and it’s still a crapshoot. For everyone else this is horrible advice, and the reality is that where they are living there aren’t going to be any good jobs.

[Blue_true]

118. See my other post, they don't all have to relocate.

If fact, not many need to relocate.

There are jobs right now in nearby larger cities of the region, they just need rapid transit to get to those jobs and back home, of sponsored housing that allows them to stay where jobs are on workdays and go home on their weekend, a harder task, but doable with good leadership.

I pointed out in another post that coal country has needs that can be turned to make the area a world leader in some areas of healthcare and dental care and building advanced medical devices. The area is beautiful, it can become known for Eco-tourism and medical tourism. All that is needed is visionary plans and the will to see them through instead of lying to people about a future that they don't have anymore.

On coding and information software support. Tech companies outsource hundreds of thousands of jobs each year to foreign countries, why not encourage them to send some of those jobs to coal country, while providing the training infrastructure that allows former coal workers to train into those jobs, some will get it faster than others, but with a determined approach, a large number of people can be transitioned into the jobs of the future, when those jobs grow, related jobs grow around them, expanding the area economy.

[Voltaire2]

133. The outsourcing goes to tech centers

Last edited Wed Jan 1, 2020, 10:50 AM - Edit history (1)

in major cities filled with very well educated workers. And sure in some alternate reality America that invested in public transportation, provided assistance for people suffering from economic dislocation and the rest of your fantasy, there might be some jobs for some of these people.

[Blue_true]

172. So my ideas are a "fantasy", but free college, MFA, high paying jobs when

the cost numbers don't remotely match the benefits is rational. Ok. Stay is your own dreamland, I prefer to live in a world where people work toward achievable goals.

[Voltaire2]

173. Actual proposals to implement the public

infrastructure that would make this alternative America a reality are a good idea. Telling coal miners to learn to program without that infrastructure is condescending nonsense.

[Blue_true]

194. It is clear the both must be done simultaneously.

There are tech jobs that can be performed remotely. People that already have the skills for such jobs in coal country can take them right away. School students can be trained for the jobs that future plans envision. People that can't be easily trained, but have skills that can be used immediately, like electricians, construction, road construction can be put to work building out the infrastructure (roads, rail lines, wireless transmission towers as more broadband is installed in the region). Doctors and Nurses with research as well as clinical skills will have to be imported in, but locals can be trained right away to fill technician and low level nursing jobs. It is all doable without pie in the sky imagery.

[lapucelle]

188. Your ideas (and the supporting "public infrastructure" ) were part of the 2016 Democratic Platform,

so no they're not a fantasy.



https://democrats.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/10/2016_DNC_Platform.pdf

[Blue_true]

195. I know. Hillary had a comprohensive vision for people in coal country, they bought the words of a

lying charlatan.

[Happy Hoosier]

227. What would YOU suggest?

Wait for the mines to reopen?

Someone has to acknowledge that the world is changing.

[Voltaire2]

231. I don't have a good solution.

It isn’t just coal mines. The miners are particularly screwed because they generally live in rural areas where there is nothing else and where there basically never will be.

But telling them to learn to program is condescending horseshit. And it comes off that way too. Lying outright as Trump does, claiming the jobs are coming back, is also condescending horseshit, but it is horseshit that people can buy into.

Yang at least isn’t bullshitting people, these jobs and essentially all low skill jobs are going away and never coming back.

[Happy Hoosier]

232. How is it condescending?

That's what I don't get. Whether you agree with the idea of learning coding or not, the concept of retraining is completely valid. IMO, we need more than retraining.... we need economic transformation of the Appalachia, but regardless, we cannot simply look at these folks and tell 'em, "yep, you're fucked!"

[Voltaire2]

234. So a middle aged person should

spend the huge amount of time and money required to qualify for an entry level software developer position, which job does not generally exist anywhere near where this person lives. That’s Joe’s proposal.

It is on its face idiotic. It’s condescending as the person saying it apparently thinks his audience won’t understand how idiotic it is. Trump’s bullshit is even worse but the shit he’s selling at least is a fantasy his audience can engage in.

[Happy Hoosier]

237. I think that's a bit out of context....

... I think a federally funded retraining program is in order, and I think that’s what Joe is on about. Are you suggesting these workers are now just obsolete? That they can’t learn productive skills?

[regnaD kciN]

44. It's not a matter of "dumb"...

...it's the matter that, as studies and articles have shown, coal miners in particular tend to self-identify with their job -- being a coal miner makes them distinctive and special for the needs of the nation. Suggesting they abandon that vocation and train for an office job gets a negative reception...and, I would think, being told to become another tech cubicle worker is going to be even less palatable for most.

[mvd]

93. Many coal miners are not dumb

However, a coal miner skill may not translate into coding skill. That is true for everyone - no one is good at everything.

[brutus smith]

58. You don't know anything about "coding".

[pnwmom]

79. I think the jobs are no more connected than being a miner

and a member of Congress.

[Hortensis]

127. Yes, pretty sure the initial reaction for many was that

miners are too dumb, even if many self corrected after.

For too many of the usual culprits, this was presented already packaged as something they could grab to use against Biden. Shame on them for running this dishonest smear for the Republicans.

Everyone knows "coding" is shorthand for developing a new, marketable skill. That's all. It represents one of MANY new lines of work people in ones whose end was in sight should have already trained for. The trumpsters know it too. No one in this bipartisan pack capable of recognizing a weapon when they see it is that dumb.

[redqueen]

146. "Everyone knows "coding" is shorthand for developing a new, marketable skill"

No.

You're literally the only person I've seen whose even suggested such a thing

[Hortensis]

157. So, you took this to mean he called for 60,000 people

once with coal-related jobs to all train to be coders, and only coders, regardless of ability or number of jobs available to them. Got it. I believe you.

Fwiw, WE, as in we Democrats, had a specific plan for various and many jobs we intended to invest heavily in creating in coal country, including training. We still plan, and the people Biden was speaking to knew that. They're prone to voting to shoot themselves in the foot, but they're not that dumb.

You know, many who are running these Republican balls for them think they're their balls too, but imo that alone should cause them all to question what they're doing. As in drop the smear balls in shocked realization. When we speak of the critical need for bipartisan cooperation in a democracy, we don't mean cooperating to repeat 2016.

[redqueen]

158. "learn to code" has been read as tone-deaf, overly simplistic, and just bad advice

For quite a while now.

If we expect to win, Biden's handlers need to get him up to speed.

Hillary shit herself in the foot with the working class. We CANNOT afford to make that same mistake again.

[Hortensis]

159. Drop the ball for your own good. It's coated with poison.

[emmaverybo]

190. Every one does know. But many wait for the slightest opportunity to pounce on Biden, so they

ignore their own common sense about how language works. Or they concern troll over a potential Republican deliberate misread on which a hypothetical yet to be made ad will be based.

Often, one example stands for many of a similar vein and describes a concept, not a concrete and purely literal case meant as be all and end all. Commonly in fact.

[Hortensis]

191. They have to know they're pushing Repub/Russian

smears against a likely Democratic nominee. And they know what happened last time they did this. They know there's a real danger of reelecting Trump, but even the threat of living under an authoritarian white nationalist government, where their vote wasn't worth the gas to get to the polling place, isn't enough to overcome the urge to spread RW smears.

[emmaverybo]

192. Hortensis, you tell the hard truths. Some collaborate willingly, others, unknowingly.

You go, Joe!
America and the world need you.

[Hortensis]

193. And probably most are unwilling to know.

So agree America and the world desperately need a good president, and we're going to elect one.

[totodeinhere]

218. No they are not and to imply otherwise is an elitist insult.

It's not really that hard anyway. I'm not a miner but I taught myself to code when I was in my late 60s.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

34. Joe, you're so right; cant believe Biden said that! He needs new advisors to help his campaign.

Last edited Wed Jan 1, 2020, 09:44 AM - Edit history (1)

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[regnaD kciN]

48. I'm thinking we're going to need a "What self-destructive thing did Joe say today?" thread...

(Just to clarify: although I certainly have my favorites for the nomination, I'll happily back any nominee. While Joe isn't my first choice, I've been taking some solace in the thought that, should he get the nod, he'd be able to win easily. But, IMO, that would only be true had he chosen to keep up his friendly, grandfatherly manner and basically promise little more than being "Obama's third term." Instead, he seems to be making a practice of being combative and offending another potential Democratic demographic every time he opens his mouth. At this rate, I have zero confidence in him not totally imploding by Election Day.)

[chimpymustgo]

129. Totally agree with your post. Joe is a ticking time bomb, riding Obama's coat strings!

Yes, I'll vote for him, if he is the nominee, but can't we do better than this?

[SMC22307]

186. Agree. There's constant scrambling to clarify what ol' Joe said.

And his macho tough-guy shtick needs to end. I'll vote for him (as I will with anyone with a 'D' behind his or her name), but he's not making it easy for the party.

[treestar]

53. Has Dotard brought the coal mining jobs back, as he

promised?

No, because he can't.

[helpisontheway]

92. Exactly..My husband works for RR and his dumb co workers listened to Trump about coal..

They voted for him despite what the union told them to do. They will vote for him again regardless. They want someone to lie to them about the jobs coming back instead of telling them to learn a new trade.

[Blue_true]

103. Well,

The people in coal country can listen to a person that tell them that they and their children must train for the jobs of the future. Or they can again listen to a charlatan who has and will continue to lead them nowhere.

If Trump puts out a commercial on what Biden inartfully said, the Biden campaign should put out a commercial that shows Trump twice coming to within a few miles of miners that were picketing to get their last paycheck and never spoke one word about those miners' plight, nor visited them. Trump was behind the company that was trying to sell the last trainloads of coal those miners dug out, without paying them the wages that they had earned. Or Biden can point out that the democratic Governor Steve Beshear outperformed his republican rival in some of the legendary Kentucky coal country areas, after Trump repeatedly campaigned for that republican. Yeah, as you joyously wrote, Trump can make a commercial, but there is plenty of coal worker neglect or outright disrespect that can be turned back on Trump in a tv commercial.

[crazytown]

2. A gaffe,

won't make a wit of difference in the GE. Not many coal miners will be voting Dem. What I've learnt in this primary season, so far, Biden has teflon, an immeasurable asset for a politician.

[bitterross]

38. Why is speaking truth a gaffe?

It's a lot better than lying about the mining jobs coming back.

People need to learn that those jobs are gone and not coming back. They have to find other employment.

[Jirel]

201. It is not truth.

“Go learn to be a programmer” is a myth of the entitled for several reasons.

1. It takes money to learn a new skill, especially a high tech skill.

2. It takes time to do it that many families can ill afford.

3. High tech skills require lots of extra skills that many people in skilled and unskilled trades have not spent time and effort learning, or are long forgotten after decades of work that doesn’t use them. In the case of programming, some of those skills include the ability to learn new languages, mathematics, and some level of graphic design (for GUIs, etc.), not to mention general strong computer aptitude, typing, and familiarity with current software and trends (you can’t design new software if you haven’t been paying attention to what’s current, new, and hot).

4. The myth assumes staggering adaptability to completely upend a lifetime of work focus, industry knowledge, hard-won skills, and even geographic location.

5. Where are all these jobs coming from? Programming and other tech fields are brimming with existing workers. There are tons of bad or new programmers, system engineers, etc. Let’s say the miners blow the curve and do all go start and complete retraining. They’ll be starting from ground zero in a field completely different than they’ve been in for probably a decade or more, competing for entry level work with generally younger folks who have been living and breathing tech in one form or another their whole lives. Placement rates for new tech grads is abysmal these days.

6. So where are all these jobs on major coal mining regions? Oh, lots? Nope. Lots if you count those jobs that support the mining industry, which is going away, so those jobs will be disappearing. High tech firms are not racing to set up shop in coal mining areas. Retrained mining workers had better be prepared to move away from home, community, and family.

Biden needs to check himself and apologize for this ghastly statement. It’s a “let them eat cake” scenario. The rethugs are protecting Dolt45 no matter how obviously false or ludicrous his statements. The last thing that we need to do, when trying to unseat him and end this alarming behavior, is to start backing our own candidates’ ludicrous statements out of sheer loyalty.

[The Mouth]

208. Very well and comprehensively stated

I get Joe's sentiment, and he's right in the big picture: American workers must retrain ffor and adapt to the jobs that will be here in the future, not what they, dad, and grandad did.

But the way he put it is really 'Let them eat cake' in how it is going to sound to a lot of American workers.

[Happy Hoosier]

228. I'm seeing a lot of criticism, but what's your alternative?

The mines will not reopen. Whatever happens, these folks need to learn new skills, and the region has to redevelop economically.

That's just reality. There is no option where these folks stay in place, learn nothing new, and get good paying jobs.

[pnwmom]

3. Ummm .... anyone who could can go down 3000 feet and throw coal into a furnace

ought to be able to run for Congress.

Sure, why not?

[samnsara]

55. geez thats scary thinking about the conditions miners work in...they are tough!

[BannonsLiver]

4. Oddly, that makes more sense than telling them their jobs are coming back.

They’re not.

[George II]

5. That's misrepresenting what he said. Why do people feel the need to do that?

[BeyondGeography]

6. Thereby offending both groups

Way to go, Joey B!!!

Link to tweet

Link to tweet

[TruthTeller0505]

33. Are you sure they're not Russian trolls?

Look how many followers they have.

[BeyondGeography]

39. Lol, ok

Here’s a list of GWTech tweets. Let me know what your Russian troll decoder says:

https://mobile.twitter.com/GWTechcast?ref_src=twsrc%5Etfw%7Ctwcamp%5Etweetembed%7Ctwterm%5E1211873090080313344&ref_url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.democraticunderground.com%2F%3Fcom%3Dview_post%26forum%3D1287%26pid%3D401667

[RandySF]

7. I don't know what the solution is, but coal mining is on it's way out.

[Caliman73]

61. The solution has to be to provide services to retrain workers for a different job.

Very likely to provide financial assistance during the transition and financial assistance for any relocation needs.

The problem isn't necessarily stating that coal is on its way out but in how it is conveyed and the specificity of the directive. "Learn to code" is a simplistic answer and can certainly be interpreted as patronizing or condescending.

Instead of "Learn to code" it should be, "You guys have been the backbone of America's energy needs for generations and we are grateful and we want you to know as energy transitions away from coal, which is a harsh reality, that we are going to have your back and provide tools and support for you guys to maintain your livelihoods and support your families. We aren't going to leave you all out in the cold."

[RandySF]

67. They want to hear one thing

That coal mining will be around so long as they’re able to work.

[Caliman73]

69. Of course they do.

That is what they do and who they are. The problem is as you said, that coal is on its way out.

Candidates can lie to them, or they can tell them the truth. The problem is when you tell them, "Learn to drive a truck" or "Learn coding" or something to that effect. You are basically telling them that they can change who they are easily .

You don't want to lie to them but you also don't want to trivialize their grief and transition. You have to say, and mean that you will do whatever it takes not to let them fall through the cracks.

[NJCher]

70. ++ 1000x

How you phrased it would have handled the situation so much better.

"Learn to code" sounds preemptive and dismissive. The way you said it would make the person feel that they've contributed something in the past and that we have belief that they can contribute again in the future. That's so, so important to a person who has lost a job. And furthermore, that we have enough of a belief in them that we will finance a new work start for them.

[Caliman73]

75. I truly believe that we owe them that.

The reality is that the US has relied on coal for the bulk of its energy needs for a long time. Coal mining is dirty and dangerous. It has been lucrative but because of the nature of Capitalism the owners have always sought to exploit workers to increase profit. While it was the choice (in large part) of people to work in that industry, the thing is, if you live in Coal Country, your dad, grandfather, and brothers are miners; you are likely to become a miner.

Unlike people who worship at the altar of Capitlism, I think that societal needs should come before market needs/desires. It is the responsibility of the owners and of society in general to help workers in a dying industry, especially one once considered vital, to transition into something different. I don't think that politicians should just say it, I think they should mean it and actually use their power to support those people.

[redqueen]

148. The government has been using that line for decades.

Has anyone looked into the history of how those retraining efforts pan out?

I know someone who was put out of a job by NAFTA. He got an offer of retraining. He never worked again. He's now one of those statistics that Yang talks about. Addicted to opiates, depressed, dropped out of the labor market.

We have to stop pretending that things that haven't worked before will magically start working now. These are people's lives we are talking about.

[Caliman73]

203. Or we actually have to do them.

The problem isn't the plan. The problem is that when it comes to paying for the training and the relocation, and other things necessary to transition people after an industry goes away, nobody wants to pay for it.

The problem is that it is "a line" and not an actual promise that comes with money and professionals attached to actually help people.

[redqueen]

205. No, it's paid for. The government pays for it.

The training is funded and attempted. Many people try it.

It just isn't successful. Hence the massive number of people who just drop out of the workforce. They just give up.

[SMC22307]

163. Thank you. Why is that so difficult for many on this site to grasp?

Did they learn nothing from Hillary Clinton? Hell, maybe they need to sit down and watch Anthony Bourdain's highly-rated episode on West Virginia and actually learn something. Biden, too.

[TruthTeller0505]

9. Is he not telling the truth?

If Biden would have said anything different, people would say he is not strong on the environment. I'm voting for Bernie in the primary but nit picking Biden's words looks desperate.

[brutus smith]

64. I don't think it's so much about the coal mining jobs, it's his solution which far, far from reality

[Caliman73]

66. Yes he is telling the truth.

The problem is that telling someone "Learn to code" can be seen as insensitive and tone deaf.

If you were in an industry that defined your family for generations and someone came in and told you to pack up, leave, and learn to do something different (even if it were true that it was needed) would you see that person as good?

He could have said, "I promise that when I am President, as we transition away from coal, which is the unavoidable reality, that I will do everything within the power of the Administration to make sure you guys have all of the tools and support you need to make that transition as smooth as it can be. We will not leave you behind. I know that you guys are the toughest, most determined guys in any industry, and that if we give you guys the support you need, that you can use your talents and strength to make a good life for you and your families. So, I promise you will have those tools."

[TruthTeller0505]

76. I like your answer better

That's true but it is petty. Anyway. I'm for Bernie!

[Caliman73]

84. I like Bernie too, and Elizabeth, and Julian...

I think that any Democratic candidate, minus maybe Gabbard, would be way better than ANY Republican and especially the disgusting hole that is Trump.

I obviously like some more than others, but I will work to get any Democratic candidate elected in 2020.

[TruthTeller0505]

99. Absolutely true.

I don't know what Gabbard's intentions are but the rest I know all want what we want.

[Hav]

11. Not sure how realistic it is

I suppose it depends on age and personal interests. It's hard going into a new field if you have no interest for it.
But generally, if you can think logically, IT or programming in particular is one of the fields you can start to learn without prior knowledge and still reach a professional level. And it's also an area that is attractive and welcomes those whose expertise was previously in another sector.

[OKNancy]

12. This isn't new

..and be careful about saying miners are too stupid to learn it. That's nasty stereotyping.
------------------------------------------------------------------

https://www.npr.org/sections/alltechconsidered/2016/05/06/477033781/from-coal-to-code-a-new-path-for-laid-off-miners-in-kentucky

From Coal To Code: A New Path For Laid-Off Miners In Kentucky



All over eastern Kentucky, you see cars and pickup trucks with black license plates proclaiming the owner is a "friend of coal."

Even though the license plates are all over, it's getting harder to find actual coal miners here: Fewer than 6,000 remain in the state, where the coal industry is shrinking fast. More than 10,000 coal workers have been laid off since 2008.

Many have had to leave the area to find work, but a few have found employment in other — and sometime unexpected — fields, as businesses are innovating to use former coal workers in new ways.

[OKNancy]

13. LOL while looking for an article about this... Bloomberg has some haters

https://www.wired.com/2015/11/can-you-teach-a-coal-miner-to-code/

Can You Teach a Coal Miner to Code?

But Rusty’s unease with Bloomberg turned into a gut-deep animus last year, when the self-confessed hillbilly—if you’re from this part of the world that’s a self-identifier, not an insult—sat down for his weekly, three-hour, Saturday morning news-reading session. That’s when he came across Bloomberg’s latest jab.

“You’re not going to teach a coal miner to code.”

There he was, this business mogul, preaching “compassion” for the miners watching their world collapse — while simultaneously saying they couldn’t be retrained to work in America’s hottest industry.

“Mark Zuckerberg says you teach them to code and everything will be great,” said Bloomberg. “I don’t know how to break it to you …. but no.”

It wasn’t just about coal politics this time — on that stuff, at least, Justice can agree to disagree. This? This was just patronizing.

“It touched every button of every stereotype you can put on us, that we’re not smart and can’t do things and are pitiful and all that,” Justice told me. “It was like waving a red flag in front of a bull’s face.”

[SMC22307]

185. "...sat down for his weekly, three-hour, Saturday morning news-reading session."

People on this site and elsewhere need to stop assuming coal miners are stupid hillbilly 'low-information voters.'

[IronLionZion]

14. WV only has around 14,000 people working in the coal industry

many of those jobs require skills to operate machinery, which could transfer to other types of machinery in oil drilling or wind turbine installation or similar.

Lots of towns need skilled trades like plumbers, electricians, welders, auto mechanics, etc. That might be a more helpful route than coding.

There are software development jobs in coal country for those who want it, but I wouldn't suggest it as a game changer for coal miners since it is a very different type of skill and it's a competitive job market. It's as frustrating as when politicians suggest laid off auto workers can assemble fast food instead.

[David__77]

16. I've no problem with his comments.

Note that this link with video of Biden's comments appears to be on a rightist's Twitter account - I only chose that link because I don't see another video of the actual comments:

Link to tweet

I agree with Biden's statements that people can learn to code/program. He didn't say that they all should or that that's a comprehensive solution. And despite Trump's pro-coal words, the market is changing and I find it unlikely that coal employment will increase, unless exports can somehow to be greatly increased.

[Otto Lidenbrock]

72. That video contains two parts of Biden's answer - the start and end - skipping context in themiddle

And the longest part.

Link to tweet

What that right wing account is typical manipulation. He deliberately cut off most of Biden's comment to make it seem he was being flippant.

[David__77]

73. Thanks for adding context!

Even in the video I posted, I didn't see a problem.

[samnsara]

130. me neither..its saying if you can go underground 3000 feet you can do ANYTHING!!

...if i had a choice to make no way would i go underground that deep!!!

[Sherman A1]

17. And we really suck at retraining programs

[BeyondGeography]

31. Thanks...many people here are having trouble connecting the dots

This isn’t about coal miners, it’s about the epic tone deafness of elites who have no apparent idea what working class people face when they lose a long-term well-paying job. Retraining, even when it does pan out, most often lands you in a place that pays half as much with an accompanied loss of seniority and benefits. This is common knowledge out there in that part of the world that has lived it so it hurts all Democrats when one of our leaders wings it like this.

[Sherman A1]

41. You hit the nail on the head

It is about tone deafness as you state. The only ones that seem to benefit from the retraining programs are the ones running the retraining programs taking in those taxpayer dollars and providing very little benefit to those in need and the public as a whole.

[treestar]

50. It happens to people in IT also

Almost anyone once they get into their 50s.

[greatauntoftriplets]

141. Or any business really.

[redqueen]

150. This! nt

[cwydro]

18. Oh dear.

Who is advising him?

[George II]

22. Better yet...Oh dear, who is misrepresenting what he said? He did NOT say what's in the OP.

[cwydro]

23. Then what DID he say?

[cwydro]

65. Well, I asked you what he actually said, and you didn't answer.

I’ve searched around, and the link here, as well as others, show him saying that.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

35. Seriously!! Joe has some very high-paid advisors... they need to huddle and fix it, pronto!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[Prosper]

20. Coal mining jobs have deteriorated in wages and importance

over the last 30 or more years. The people left have neither the finances or training to make a move a viable alternative. Very few if any 3000 foot deep coal mines in the WV region. There is absolutely no relevancy between coal mining and coding. His statement about coding and shoveling coal is not worthy of a candidate.

[Renew Deal]

25. Is there a future in coal mining?

[Prosper]

196. Coal mining has changed drastically and dramatically. No future.

From a peak of overall 500,000 jobs avaraging with the highest of paying jobs to: less than 40,000 and only 6000 Unionized today.

Coal Mine Worker Hourly Pay | PayScale
https://www.payscale.com › Job=Coal_Mine_Worker › Hourly_Rate
Oct 26, 2019

- The average hourly pay for a Coal Mine Worker is $20.64. ... A coal miner is the person who removes coal from the earth so that it can be used ...

There will always be out of work coal miners because they live in poor remote areas. No jobs of anyh kind can be moved in and unemployed mines can't move out.

No solution other than safety net social programs.

The USA is loaded with more natural gas than anything else. Coal cannot afford to be developed into a clean burning fuel.

[Hav]

26. Maybe no relevance in actual skills needed for the examples mentioned

I don't think it was intended to be a 1 to 1 comparison of skills but rather a comment like "If you managed tackle that challenge, then surely you don't have to be afraid to try that challenge". And when you take a look at the nice article in post 13, that is exactly what some miners did.
Of course, it's not universal, not everybody can be a programmer. But many who came from different backgrounds that had nothing to do with programming can indeed learn it.

[Renew Deal]

24. Is he wrong?

Trump and anyone else that claims there is a future in coal mining is lying. Learning to code is no easy thing, but I think it’s more of a metaphor.

[blm]

51. I assumed he meant it metaphorically, too.

[Voltaire2]

104. He's clueless about 'coding' jobs.

And “it’s a metaphor’ is nonsense.

[Prosper]

197. Agree, uninformed talk.

[brewens]

27. I'll pass on buying software coded by ex coal miners. n/t

[Loki Liesmith]

29. Classism.

[OKNancy]

32. +1

[Hav]

36. That's a nice way of describing this attitude

It was a pretty deplorable statement.

[Sloumeau]

71. No good software company releases code unless its been tested and retested.

Debugging software (checking software for errors) is the single most important part of coding. Good coders will release no code before its time. There are at least four levels of programmers including basic coders, team leads, software engineers and heads of IT. Many people can do the basic coding job and make a decent living, and it is lot safer and healthier than working in a coal mine. Still, as I said in another post, coding isnt't for everyone. That's why, for people who like to work with their hands, we should make sure that there are plenty of Green New Deal type of jobs like manufacturing and installing solar panels and wind turbines, since that is why coal mining is slowing down.

[LAS14]

81. Well said. I posted #80 before I saw this. nt

[Demsrule86]

77. Would you now...kind of snobby I think to assume those who work for a living are stupid.

[Prosper]

198. Stupid is not correct. Aptitude is relevant.

[tonedevil]

86. Do you generally get...

the complete resumes of the people who code the software you use?

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

111. What if it was the updated Minesweeper game?!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[nini]

132. I became a programmer and previously had a manual labor job

Not sure why you think that way. Granted not everyone is wired in such a way it would be easy to program but I’d bet there’s plenty coal workers who could do it with the right training. Not to mention the development cycle isn’t quite that simple. A programmer doesn’t just throw code up on websites or apps. Presently I manage a qa group where we test the code thoroughly. It doesn’t get released until I sign off on it.

[brewens]

136. I was looking at it more like Trump worshipping miners that actually beleived he'd bring

their jobs back. I'll stand by avoiding doing business with any of those guys, even if I was wrong to say that about coal miners in general.

[nini]

149. understood

but then we get into other employees these companies aren't necessarily trumpers too


Thanks for clarifying though.

[SMC22307]

166. Many aren't "Trump worshipping miners" but they didn't like...

the words coming out of Hillary's mouth so they voted for him. And I imagine the dismissive "learn to code" isn't going over too well with them, either. Biden needs to work on his messaging or he's toast.

[ecstatic]

143. Lol! nt

[Sapient Donkey]

164. I'm sure there are a few former coal miners who can become great developers

They just need the education and experience to get to that level. The issue is that not everyone has the sort of brain that works best for programming, and they won't be successful at it.

[Loki Liesmith]

28. He's correct. Deal.

[cwydro]

63. I can't imagine anything less I'd like to do.

I’d think it would be difficult for people used to doing physical work to sitting down all day.

Some might like that, not me. I’ve got a college degree and had to work indoors a great deal of my life, but managed to wrangle jobs that had a lot of out of the office involved.

Telling someone to “deal” really doesn’t help anything.

[redqueen]

151. Telling someone to "deal" is how Dems have lost the working class.

[cwydro]

160. Spot on.

It’s clueless.

[Midwestern Democrat]

161. A lot of the policy elites are basically clueless about average people. The policy elites are

highly intelligent people who went to the top universities in the country and a great many of them were born into the Upper Middle Class or higher - and you very often get the sense when they talk about the "new economy"/"the jobs of tomorrow", that they don't really grasp that most people aren't as intelligent as them - that you could give a person of average intelligence a free ride to Harvard and he's not going to ever have the brain power to become a "Bio-Engineer" - and yes, I've actually seen people suggest that as a realistic career path in the "New Economy".

[redqueen]

167. Too depressing for words. We need to win. nt

[Sloumeau]

30. As someone who studied programming in college...

I can say that learning to code is a great way to change job categories:

Link: https://www.burning-glass.com/research-project/coding-skills/

Coding skills are in high demand

Seven million job openings in 2015 were in occupations which value coding. This corresponds to 20% of “career track” jobs, defined as those which pay a national living wage of at least $15 per hour.
Coding skills are not just for programmers

Coding skills are of value to candidates across five major job categories:

Information Technology (IT) worker
Data Analysts
Artists and Designers
Engineers
Scientists

Coding jobs pay more

Jobs requiring coding skills pay $22,000 per year more than jobs that don’t: $84,000 vs $62,000 per year. (This analysis includes only “career track” jobs.)
Coding skills provide an avenue to high-income jobs

Half of jobs in the top income quartile (>$57,000 per year) are in occupations which commonly require coding skills from job applicants.
Coding jobs are growing faster than the job market

Programming jobs are growing fastest, 50% faster than the market overall. In general, programming jobs are growing 12% faster than the market average.

However, I would have worded things differently from Biden. Because some people work with their hands, Coal miners would probably do really well in green energy fields, such as building solar and wind turbines. These are some of what is replacing these coal mining jobs anyway. Biden should say that wherever there is a declining coal mine, he wants an initiative to build solar and wind turbine technology. It is better for the environment, and much healthier and less risky than coal mining. This is why I think Biden should look at the Green New Deal closely and decide which parts, such as building solad and wind turbines, he believes in.

[The Valley Below]

40. With you!

[Prosper]

182. As coal mining jobs started to decline those with

Last edited Fri Jan 3, 2020, 02:38 PM - Edit history (1)

finances and talent and adaptive skills started to leave the coal mining regions. It costs at least five thousand dollars to move a household to another region. I worked in coal mines for eleven years and left in 1983 when it was obvious that jobs and wages were on the decline. Thise remaining were abandoned. Lacking skill sets, education, finances and adaptability to move to potentially rewarding locations. Biden gave a typical Right wing response to unemployed workers. He essentially blamed them for not adapting. The unemployed workers need help, not lecturing.

[Hoyt]

37. Don't think he said that, but it's more realistic than "I have a plan for that"

from Sanders or Warren.

[wiley]

45. Do any of their supporters have real lives?

The crap they have time to write about is amazing.

[blm]

47. So you like to believe.

“...In her plan, Warren said she would provide job training, guaranteed wage and benefit parity for fossil fuel workers transitioning into other industries, as well as pensions and early benefits for those who retire.

“Coal miners, oil rig workers, pipeline builders and millions of other workers have given their life’s blood to build the infrastructure that powered the American economy throughout the 20th century,” Warren wrote. “In return, they deserve more than platitudes.”

Additionally, the senator vowed to tighten bankruptcy laws to prevent coal and other fossil fuel companies from “evading their responsibility to their workers and to the communities that they have helped to pollute.”

You just can’t help targeting Warren. On any thread. On any subject.

[Hoyt]

57. Her "Economic Patriotism" and such, is not going to help them.

All the candidates are rightfully calling for retraining and help transitioning.

[redqueen]

152. Sure they are. How many are honest about how well that has worked in the past?

And have plans to deal with that reality?

[Turbineguy]

46. Maybe I'm missing the point.

There's a lot of things you can do when your job goes away. Coding is one of them. It's just that in the U.S. the usual response to this problem is, "gee, tough luck, well, pull yourself up by your bootstraps!"

Part of living in a proper civilized society is that we should invest in the members of that society. There are many jobs out there that are really beneath the dignity of a human being.

I remember my first time in Singapore. They still had rickshaws pulled by men. You rode in the contraption being pulled by this leathery old guy in a loin cloth who barely scraped a living. Eventually they were replaced by air-conditioned taxis and mass transit.

One of the promises of technology is that it frees us from doing many degrading tasks. But we have to transition to it and not say, "Here's a fucking cardboard sign. Stand by the freeway exit and hope for the best!".

[badhair77]

49. I think he meant that was one option. But the keys words were

pointing out their past experience qualified them for trying training in lots of advanced fields. The reality is mining is not a growing job. It’s time to help these workers explore other areas. When the steelworkers in my town lost their jobs the local college offered other options. Some took advantage of the programs and prospered while others just sat lamenting their loss.

[treestar]

52. This always happens when jobs become obsolete

other jobs are invented.

Obviously all the robots that threaten the basic jobs still have to be built, programmed, maintained and replaced again with newer versions. These are safer and better jobs.

He's not wrong and these are the same people who think others need some tough love, so why is it implied they can't take it and will be "alienated?"

[redqueen]

154. Because it's not the first time this has happened.

And in the past, retraining for those safer and better jobs has not worked out.

We cannot keep ignoring the results of our retraining efforts and pretending that it is an effective way to address these situations.

[treestar]

174. Sure it has

There were not IT jobs in the 1930s, and a few in the 40s, 50s, but it ballooned later. It's not direct replacements, but as for all of society, it works. Nobody makes carriages anymore, except maybe a very few for rare purposes. No one made cars before cars became common.

Whatever the answer is for people directly affected, it is not that we have to stay in the past for their personal benefit.

[redqueen]

204. No, it hasn't. nt

[treestar]

229. on what ground has re-training "not worked out?"

And the obsolete jobs will still go away.

[redqueen]

230. Let me Google that for you

https://lmgtfy.com/?q=retraining+success+rate

[SMC22307]

184. Why are you assuming all coal miners believe others need 'tough love'?

The problem is that too many people are telling them what they need and not doing enough listening.

[treestar]

189. Conservatives generally tell poor people in the cities to

"get a job" and if that doesn't pay well, "get a better job." They are very judgmental about the urban poor. If they voted for Trump and are conservative one would think they wouldn't demand "government handouts" for themselves.

[samnsara]

54. they would be healthier thats for sure

[jcmaine72]

60. Obviously Joe didn't read Hillary's book "What Happened"

She stated that he greatest regret of the 2016 campaign was her misstatement about the coal miners. Dotard used that as a cudgel against her and as a primary rally point for the WWC. No matter what Hillary said afterwards to try and clarify her actual intentions, the media allowed Trump to dominate the narrative vis-a-vis coal country with his vicious lies because it made far better copy (and let's face it, a far better freak show) than Hillary matter-of-factly trying to set the record straight.

Oh well...

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

113. Excellent point!! You would think Joe has read Hillary's book forward and backwards

and learned from her admitted mistake. Guess not... too bad.


Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[Aaron Pereira]

62. "Learn to code" has become a glib solution for those in desperate need of employment.

Not sure if he meant it that way but Joe is coming off with the same attitude that alienated working class voters in Ohio, Michigan and Pennsylvania in 2016.

[jcmaine72]

68. People were rightfully outraged earlier in the year when RWingers told

recently unemployed journalists to "learn to code". I guess it's okay now for some reason.

[Backseat Driver]

90. This is most certainly true! /eom

[redqueen]

155. Exactly. I saw the clip this morning and could not believe what I was hearing.

[Fiendish Thingy]

74. How about "the govt will pay for you to learn how to work in green technology"

Installing solar, wind, etc.

Seems like I’ve heard a candidate propose this, but it wasn’t Joe...

That’s a little more compassionate, especially compared to “learn to code!”

[raging moderate]

78. I have thought that they surely have many transferable skills and abilities.

Coal mining surely requires many different kinds of skills and knowledge, doesn't it? ( in mechanics, in electrical and electronic devices, in the chemistry of the substances they find and handle, in first aid, in management and accounting, and probably other areas I haven't thought about). And then there would be the other interests of the coal miners, hobbies and ways they augment their living, and pastimes such as fishing, hunting, gardening, woodsmanship, building, crafts. music, arts, farming. The West Virginia area has many gorgeous places, and deep interesting traditions. I wonder whether they would find themselves capable of great achievements based on these old traditions, perhaps blended with some modern devices, perhaps just in guiding other people through some interesting experiences of these places and traditions. Maybe they could even turn the tables on the rest of us and make money teaching us how to do some of the things they take for granted which would actually be life-changing eye-openers to us.

[LAS14]

80. Thnking like this makes me wish Yang had a chance.

No, Joe. Anyone who goes 3000 feet into a mine cannot necessarily learn to program. Different skill sets entirely. Not all people's minds are the same, and programming demands a particular kind of mind. I despair when I hear that the the solution to everything is better education. For sure, we need better education. But we also need a society which has a healthy, living-wage place for people who are never going to be programmers!!!!

[evertonfc]

82. lolol

Holy shit I just spit out my beer I laughed so hard

[gulliver]

83. What makes some here so down on coal miners that they assume they can't learn to code?

A whole lot of them can learn it. It's not that hard, and it is a great way to get into the IT industry. People who think getting into coding is difficult haven't been paying attention.

But the key thing is supporting education of all kinds, along with transition money for the green economy. If Biden is our nominee, we'll have those things.

[nini]

135. It's not hard?

It is if you don’t have analytic and problem solving mind. To do it well at least.

I absolutely believe there are plenty of coal workers and other displaced workers who could be excellent programmers when given the training needed. But it’s certainly not a 3 month certificate program either.

[keithbvadu2]

85. But it must be at least a bachelor's degree.

But it must be at least a bachelor's degree.

A similar topic in the last few years had a reply from a programmer who told of job seekers who took the six month basic coding courses but when tested by his company, they could not do higher level work.

Coding is a job that has long been outsourced overseas.

Train for a job that is local and cannot be outsourced; hands-on such as nursing, mechanical repair, plumbing, carpentry and such.

[myohmy2]

87. "Anybody who can throw coal into a furnace can learn how to program, for God's sake!"

...well, that should get trump a few more votes...

...it's insensitivity like this, to people and their plight, that makes people wonder if the Democratic Party understands their situation or even cares...

...more to consider as we select our nominee...

[Backseat Driver]

88. Yeah, right, not even funny!

Sure, states can surely turn to government to train coal miners to code vintage software languages, but most every corp has moved on to their specific ready-to-lock and load proprietary systems for just about every industry application; the only networked clouds miners know are the ones over their heads while they were underground.

Sure, a few chose to be rooted in place in rural America or loved to read the college poetry and classics on their off-time, but beginner's classes in computer coding will hardly cut the mustard toward a useful career anytime soon - and then there's that temptation for generational ruin called more undischargeable student loan debt to enslave every dollar and every normal adult landmark choice like marriage, home purchase, and responsible rearing of children, from the older/younger ones as well?

And "I helped" says Biden regarding his advice for miners retraining. Sounds more like that old "fool me once..." stuff of the '90s post failure in the '80s.

DH used to do that - CODE; RPG/COBOL/review applications done in C++. I learned the language of medicine and how to read doc's handwriting and made sure he'd signed his orders. I learned to code for billing, hospital/ambulatory care, and research, but neither coding skill turned out much different than struggling with a shovel in a mine for low wages.

They actually explained how they thought DH was Asian at one interview, and had him screened by foreigners who spoke their own language to determine if he was a "good fit" at several others. He thankfully missed training his replacements and but was informed he could not be hired because he was not currently working! WTF?

He was hired specifically to burn the budgets of government contractors, and sat idle on the payroll without so much as a workstation until he quit in disgust and traveled on his day of hire by a T4 primary contractor at his own expense for a budget-burning VA training session out-of-state where even the instructors never showed up. Why? So headhunters and hiring managers could split a commission, perhaps???

Perhaps retraining would have made him a great low-income caregiver? He was an only child with a chronically terminally ill father who would never qualify for assistance, nor believed in Wall Street investments, after all? Does anyone really think that the Dept. of Labor or the State would care to investigate these types of claims that target? May we see the review tape? Oh wait, that's the high-cost lawyers' job to prove, except no "regular (non)working person" can afford that or healthcare, or housing, or food? We had a plan for repayments and our retirement; now, as I've noted, it's a terrifying Plan B that awaits no matter who THIS election provides as leaders.

Government moves and speaks too late and acts too slowly, Joe Biden. Ms. Warren has explained how it all went wrong and has real plans that can work.

Now let's talk about age discrimination likely to occur directly after elementary STEM programs where, the rest of the time, teachers who can't need schooling in academic teach-to-test "artificial" intelligence and become embroiled in conspiracies of silence over abuse and lack of support and supervision at homes and wherever else children and youth in America gather. But "Hey Joe." If it's you instead of this "Hey boomers" choice, I'll help you out, good buddy with a vote should I live so long. That's much more a real consideration than training in computer coding!

[redqueen]

156. What a racket. I've heard similar stories

too many times.

[Hekate]

89. Trump to coal miners: "You will always have mining jobs! I'm bringing coal back!"

Hillary to coal miners: Retrain
Obama to coal miners: Retrain
Every Dem in the country: Retrain, for gods' sake. Elect Dems and we'll help you.

I would have preferred that Biden said to retrain in building windmills and solar panels, but the sentiment is the same.

[Peacetrain]

91. And you have an issue with this because?????

Time for coal to end.. what are people supposed to do starve. Of course they can learn to code. Or anything else.

[rownesheck]

94. Biden sure ain't my first choice

but I strongly agree with his statement. If they don't want to learn coding, then learn something else that will be useful. Same goes for oil workers. Start learning skills for jobs of the future.

[boomer_wv]

95. Wow....

The basis of calling Biden out on this one is stereotyping and elitism. The people who are so upset about it pretty clearly are saying that coal miners are too stupid to learn to code. That's ridiculous.

I know a lot of coal miners and they aren't stupid. Stupid people in mining these days either get fired, if they don't get themselves killed first.

First off, a lot of miners won't need to be retrained into anything. Plenty of them are running heavy equipment or trucks and could step right into doing that in another job if they needed to. We are always going to need people to drive big trucks and run dozers and excavators. Others are electricians, plumbers, and mechanics who could continue doing that job outside of mining, without any need to learn anything at all.

However, there are hundreds of current miners who could learn to code without any problems.

[backscatter712]

96. I did. The job market for software engineers is flooded right now.

You can make a pile of money if you live in Silicon Valley and you're fortunate enough to have the years of experience under your belt that makes you attractive to employers.

If you're new to the business, trying to get a job is a nightmare.

We need to be talking more radical solutions to inequality and job displacement caused by outsourcing, by technological progress (there's a reason why it's hard to be a coal miner - coal is obsolete, and rightly so).

Time to start talking about universal basic income.

Oh, but that costs money - the kind of money that requires taxing the big billionaires. Obviously their plans to build their next submarine-yacht take priority...

[Tipperary]

97. Wtf?

Is this for real?

[yortsed snacilbuper]

98. My Dad was a coal miner and I grew up in a minig town.

I think that is a good idea.

[aikoaiko]

100. Being cavalier with coal miners' jobs is an Achilles heal for us.

Last edited Tue Dec 31, 2019, 10:39 PM - Edit history (1)

HRC was terribly cavalier about coal miners jobs and now Biden repeats.

It's also clear that Joe has never coded a line in his life.

[TwilightZone]

110. Right, it would be better to just lie to them about their futures.

Like Trump did. Great idea, that.

[aikoaiko]

115. We don't have to be cavalier to be honest.

Its just takes empathy.

[betsuni]

121. NO, she had a $30 billion clean energy jobs plan. Quote taken out of context, as everybody knows.

In context:

"So, for example, I'm the only candidate who has a policy about how to bring economic opportunity using clean renewable energy as the key into Coal Country. Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right Tim? And we're going to make it clear that we don't want to forget those people. Those people labored in those mines for generations, losing their health, often losing their lives to turn on our lights and power our factories. Now we've got to move away from coal and all the other fossil fuels ... ."


"I also got to work developing the detailed plan to invest $30 billion in revitalizing coal communities ... . Consulting with national experts and local leaders, my team came up with great ideas for new incentives to attract jobs and industries to Appalachia, improving infrastructure and broadband internet, training programs that would lead to real jobs instead of worthless certificates, and more support for schools and students. We also worked with the United Mine Workers of America union on steps to hold the coal companies accountable and guarantee health care and a secure retirement for miners and their families. I spoke out publicly when the union said it would be helpful, and I exerted pressure behind the scenes when needed. In the end, Peabody Energy, one of the biggest coal companies, agreed to extend benefits for more than twelve thousand retired miners and their families. If I had won the election I would have used the full power of the federal governmet to do even more. No other candidate came close to this level of attention to the real challenges facing coal commutes."

[aikoaiko]

122. Yep, that's cavalier way of discussing coal mining. It was a bad day for HRC.

I'm sure she wishes she could have taken that back.

I hope our candidates do better this time, but Joe seems to be making similar mistakes.

[betsuni]

123. No it wasn't. Taken out of context.

Bernie: "These guys were heroes, going down underneath there, the worst work in the world, and many of them die young from black lung disease. The world has come and past them. Coal is in decline. So, how do you feel if you are 50-60 years old and once had a job. And, by the way, a job is not just an income. People want to work. They want to feel part of society."

Same thing as Hillary and Joe said. Coal is in decline. Have to do something else.

[SMC22307]

187. THIS is what they heard...

"Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right Tim?"

Of course they were going to vote for Trump, not the person who clearly stated she was going to put them out of work, leaving them with low-wage Walmart jobs.

[betsuni]

124. Still waiting for why "Coal is in decline" isn't a cavalier way of discussing coal mining.

[aikoaiko]

165. I get it. All you see is the good and good intention of HRC.

But not everyone does - like suspicous coal miners.

The phrase, “Because we're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business, right Tim? ” was a trigger that all the supportive words and policies couldn’t redeem.

[yortsed snacilbuper]

102. Why are peope on DU against education?

[Voltaire2]

106. We are against horseshit advice.

[jcmaine72]

119. And against vapid condescension

We absolutely need to show Dotard the door next November and shouldn't be alienating anyone.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

178. They're not, they're against unhelpful political comments that could alienate a block of voters!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[nsd]

112. People who work in coal mining should prepare to transition to something else.

But this particular thing (mining --> coding) isn't great advice. It has a dubious history. See, for example, this NY Times article.

http://www.nytimes.com/2019/05/12/us/mined-minds-west-virginia-coding.html

I'm not sure why people are so fixated on "coding" as the solution to all our problems. Mostly this kind of advice comes from people who don't really understand what software development is. I'm not a software engineer myself, but I am a scientist who knows enough to have a healthy respect for the discipline. It's not for everyone. It's not just a general "smart person" job. To be good at it, you need a certain affinity for applied math and a certain mindset (being able to think algorithmically). Learning about and using sophisticated equipment, as miners do, is impressive, but that's not closely related to software development.

I agree with Biden's central point -- an old industry is dying and young people need to move on -- but framing the point like this is a mistake. I worry that too many of Biden's advisers (and those of the other candidates too) have no experience with technology development and don't really know what they're talking about. He needs an engineer or two on his staff to counter the poly-sci majors

ETA: I laughed out loud at his description of "throwing coal into a furnace" -- like we're talking about guys in the bowels of the Titanic keeping the ship powered. I'm no expert, but I'm pretty sure shoveling coal is nobody's job nowadays and that coal mining is mostly about computers and robots, like everything else is.

[Hortensis]

125. Any way he would have said it would have been "a mistake"

because it's impossible for a Democrat to talk without providing something that Republicans or the left will dishonesty twist into a weapon.

Remember the time Hillary talked excitedly about all the Democrats' plans for major investment in revitalizing coal country, bringing new industry, so that people could live even better lives there and their children wouldn't have to move away? Out of that, one sentence just stating what everyone knew, that coal was on its way out, was grabbed and twisted into a takeaway that if elected evil Democrats would destroy all their wonderful coal jobs.

Imo, since they won't stop, only accelerate, the more the public sees of this, and preferably the more nastily and outrageously, the better for all of us. This learning curve has been dangerously slow and lazy.

[loyalsister]

126. He's speaking from a different era

One that is still blinded by the mystery of tech and is hooked on the Protestant work ethic. We are at a moment where we know that the old job training and new industry solutions have failed because many jobs are going away for good without replacements.
Biden needs to catch up to the modern world we live in and listen to Yang and his other opponents who admit this reality.

[brooklynite]

128. Clinton said: "retrain miners" Trump said: "keep the mines open"

Who won the miner's vote?

[Algernon Moncrieff]

131. A little reminiscent of Mike Dukakis' "Belgian Endive" comment to Indiana farmers

We do need to learn this, however. Every time we mention "clean energy" a lot of people whose jobs depend on oil, gas, and coal - and who make a very good living very often - cringe. We need to address how those folks will be taken care of. That entails more than "learn the job skills of tomorrow."

[corbettkroehler]

169. There's A Much Faster Option

I teach coding professionally and have done so for years. I know what it takes, including the specific aptitudes. Vice President Biden is correct in the sense that we need LEGIONS of additional coders now and will need even more in the future.

HOWEVER, we also need legions of workers in renewable energy, building wind towers, installing solar power systems and expanding our nations' electrical grid to add charging stations to fossil fuel filling stations. Those vocational jobs transfer skills from mining much faster, within a few weeks or months of training rather than a minimum of one year with coding.

[SharonAnn]

170. as A programmer, I can assure you that everyone cannot "learn to code".

It requires certain logic skills and not everyone has them.
There are,however, other types of jobs in the. Computer field.

[treestar]

175. or other jobs left open for them because others have gone

into the computer field. It always works, and society will never stay in the past to keep a set of jobs for some people when their jobs become obsolete.

[LongtimeAZDem]

180. Like syntax checking ;)

[honest.abe]

216. ..

[NoMoreRepugs]

177. There are approximately 55k actual coal miners

in the entire industry..... DisneyWorld in Orlando employs 74k+.

When do we begin to go apeshit as a country when some of those people have their livelihood threatened by mechanization or AI???


I still am waiting for the hue and cry to somehow help out the buggy whip industry.

[FloridaBlues]

179. People need to pay bills and learning new skills will be a better future.

If they are open to that it beats unemployment.

[PatrickforO]

181. Well, Biden is PARTLY correct. He is.

But here's the thing.

What we're looking at is a class supply/demand curve as applied to the skilled labor force.

Let me explain: Consider some hypothetical little burg in WV that is filled with unemployed coal miners.

The mine was the main employer, and now that it has closed, there isn't much else except a Walmart, a few mom and pop stores, the school and the local government.

Now if, as Biden says, we throw money at teaching these erstwhile miners to 'code,' we neglect the other side of the equation - demand for those skills.

I mean, they can't exactly 'code' at the Walmart, now can they?

Now, to be fair lest you think I'm being disingenuous and indirectly attacking Biden, I have to say that in my long career in local government, I have noticed that very few politicians have any clue about how an economy runs. This is why, if they are smart, they hire smart advisers.

From a policy perspective, what is needed here is a two-pronged approach. You train the miners to code, AND, you also have to a) provide funds for them to relocate so they can get a job, (and you have to work with businesses on that end with some kind of incentive for hiring them without experience - employers won't do that, you know, without some incentive, usually in the form of a tax credit), and/or

b) work with local economic developers to attract businesses to the area that have the kinds of jobs the miners are being trained for, and/or

c) work to ensure the region has the high-speed internet capability so the newly-trained miners could conceivably telecommute. Here, you might be creative and set up some kind of employee-owned coop that markets the labor out of state.

OK, now I'm going to criticize Biden: I'm not for him just because he doesn't get the stuff above. Very few politicians do. What I AM going to criticize him for is that he really is 'old school.' He cut his political teeth in the days where Congress members would be 'for' some new legislation and then would trumpet out how they 'solved' the problem by passing legislation that did X. Problem is, if you looked into matters more thoroughly, you'd see unintended consequences that in some cases created more problems than the legislation solved.

And any of you who have been around awhile, whomever you might be supporting, know this is true. This is why I have often said that our nominee, if elected, must realize that the Democratic base has awakened and wants real action - substantive things that actually move us forward.

Now, in spite of the above legitimate criticisms, I will support Biden if he's the nominee simply because no matter who the president is, Congress is coequal and any progress moving forward will necessarily have to be the product of debate and compromise. That is how our system works. So hopefully, if Biden is the president and he comes out with some incomplete verbal gush like this, congressional staffers, who actually know the issues, will work to flesh out the proposal so it takes these things into account.

[Prosper]

183. Biden gave an uneducated response. The unemployed miners

cant afford to move. Cant afford education. Cant afford anything.

“Let them eat cake”

[Prosper]

199. Key to the solution is:

ap·ti·tude
/ˈaptəˌt(y)o͞od/
Learn to pronounce
noun
1.
a natural ability to do something.
"children with an aptitude for painting and drawing"
2.
ARCHAIC
suitability or fitness.
"aptitude of expression"

[Recursion]

200. I think Andrew Yang's quote on this idea wins

"It's telling that people who think we can turn coal miners into coders are neither"

[nsd]

213. I've enjoyed Andrew Yang in this race.

He's a breath of fresh air. I don't quite think the Robot Apocalypse is upon us, but it's important that people start talking about UBI.

[AlexSFCA]

202. what's his advice when tech bubble burst

[jcmaine72]

206. "Learn to mine."

[honest.abe]

210. I love Joe but this is a bit of a stretch to think that old unemployed coal miners..

can easily switch careers to programming. He is certainly correct that coding is good career now and for the foreseeable future. I would have targeted this comment towards the next generation of coal miners. These younger people can realistically switch to being programmers or other IT related careers. For the old timers I would have recommended transitioning into something like welding or construction or truck driving. I think IT career may be too late for most of them.

[totodeinhere]

212. It's ageist to suggest that old workers are not capable of learning new career skills.

We do however need government involvement in training programs including providing financial support for them until they can land a job in a new field. And it doesn't just have to be tech jobs that they can be trained for. There is a big demand for skilled blue collar workers in some fields. Where I live if you have a welding certificate you can just about write your own ticket because there is such a big demand for skilled welders.

[honest.abe]

214. If you read my entire post I suggested welding as a good transition career for older coal workers.

I have been a software engineer for 3 decades and I can tell you its not something one can easily learn in their later years. Its possible but few will be able to pull it off.

[totodeinhere]

217. I know. I was just agreeing with you about blue collar jobs.

But I still don't see why older workers cannot learn coding. I taught myself to code when I was in my late 60s.

[honest.abe]

221. Sure its possible for older folks to learn to program like yourself..

but I think there aren't many who can successfully learn to code and then get a job competing against programmers less than half their age willing to work 60+ hours a week.

[totodeinhere]

224. You do have a point about age discrimination in employment. n/t

[totodeinhere]

211. That sounds like good advice to me. People need to be flexible and make changes

when necessary. The coal mining industry is on its way out and people who work in that industry need to be looking at other career paths. It's a no brainer. And of course we need government spending on retraining programs to help them with the transition.

[Recursion]

220. They'd have to move

But if they were open to moving they would have moved and found jobs already. Remember that unemployment is like freakishly low right now. My brother is with IBEW and they are literally going into a McDonalds to get breakfast in the morning and taking out all the fry cooks with them for apprenticeships when they leave. The pipefitters are essentially hitting people over the head to drag them into apprenticeships.

We don't really even need to retrain people. If you can mine coal, you can definitely work construction, and if you can work construction I can get you a job literally today for $30/hour in Fairfax County, VA.

We don't even need retraining. We just need a lot of U-Hauls.

[honest.abe]

222. Exactly.

I know alot of people dont want to move for all sorts of seemingly good reasons but if they really want a job the only way forward is to move. I have moved about 10 times in my life for job opportunities. Its not easy but it worked out very well for me.

[totodeinhere]

225. Being willing to relocate is a part of the flexibility I mentioned.

And yes I understand that not everybody can just drop everything and move across the country at the drop of a hat. So we might also need to offer assistance to people who do decide to move for career advancement reasons.

[Recursion]

226. That assistance was a huge part of Hillary Clinton's 2016 campaign

Here's the worst part: people will hate you for offering it.

[Prosper]

233. It costs at least $5000 to move a household to a new area.

[Recursion]

235. No, it just doesn't

If you can't get work where you are, you just have to go to where you can get work. Migrants do it. Americans did it for 200 years until suddenly this cohort stopped doing it (Americans today are twice as likely to live in the town they were born in as their parents were). People need to start moving again.

[Prosper]

236. You obviously haven't done the math. At least $5000.

You are probably taking a lot for granted not the least of which is first, last and security deposit for rent. Subsistence to carry over until an income is started.

[Recursion]

238. Which is why you don't start out in a rented apartment

This isn't theoretical; this is what people actually do every day. The wage earner moves to the city and gets shared housing to start. There's an entire industry based on remittances from this person to support the family waiting to catch up with him or her. Again: hugely disadvantaged people manage to do this every day; I've done it. And if you are living in a place where there are no jobs and crates of soda have become the only functioning form of currency, you have to do it because nobody is going to reopen a mine and run it as a charity just so you can have a job.

[onetexan]

223. This is exactly what i discussed with him FIL over the holidays. He's a liberal as well, but seems

to be under the impression that the majority of trump supporters lack education, and that even the educated are not intelligent on many levels. While i also think this is in many respects true, i do think it's their narrow-minded upbringing (products of twisted teachings of Christianity, lack of exposure to diversity) and the fact many of them are just flat out lazy. Blaming minorities/people of color for their perception of being left behind are an easy target. I told him the millions of immigrants who come here over the years have made successful integration into the American way of life. These productive and contributing people have opened businesses or entered a trade which helped them not only support themselves and put their kids through college, but also pay taxes and have given back many times over the help the US has given them.

All the while the deplorables have been American citizens (because their own ancestors have immigrated here) yet they do not make plans to find other work or other opportunities, and using the false excuse that immigrants are here to take their jobs. No deplorables, you resist change and don't help yourself, you suffer the consequences. Don't expect your savior the Idiot to help you, as he's proven he doesn't give a crap about you by taking your federal assistance away and leaving you as victims of his insane trade war.
Bottom line, if people think their jobs are being obsoleted they should reinvent themselves and learn a new trade, or find other opportunities and be accountable for their own failures, not blame others for their lot because of their laziness.