Joe Biden's Vote for War

[melman]

President George W. Bush signing a resolution authorizing the use of force against Iraq at the White House on Oct. 16, 2002. Joseph R. Biden Jr., then a senator, is seen at right.




Senator Joseph R. Biden Jr. proposed a compromise.

It was the fall of 2002 and the Bush administration was pushing for sweeping authority to act against Saddam Hussein, claiming he had weapons of mass destruction. Some Democrats questioned the stated threat posed by Iraq and bristled at President George W. Bush’s broad request.

Mr. Biden, the Senate Foreign Relations Committee chairman, had been scrambling to draft a bipartisan resolution that would grant Mr. Bush the authority to use military force against Iraq, but was more restrictive than the war authorization that the president had sought.

As he often had in his long career, Mr. Biden sought bipartisan middle ground — this time, between those opposed to potential war and the White House desire for more open-ended power. Some antiwar members of his committee resisted his effort, worried that it would still pave the way to conflict. “We disagreed very strenuously,” said former Senator Barbara Boxer, Democrat of California.

Mr. Biden’s plan ultimately did not succeed, and he chose to focus on Mr. Bush’s reassurances of a diplomacy-first approach.

“At each pivotal moment,” Mr. Biden said of Mr. Bush, “he has chosen a course of moderation and deliberation, and I believe he will continue to do so. At least that is my fervent hope.”

On Oct. 11, he was one of 77 senators to authorize the use of military force in Iraq. Twenty-three colleagues, some of whom harbored grave doubts about the danger Iraq posed at the time, refused to back the president’s request.

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much more...

https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/politics/joe-biden-iraq-war.html

[melman]

2. Interesting

let's look at some stats here..


me:Member since: Mon Nov 3, 2008, 02:35 PM
Number of posts: 5,762


you: Member since: Sat Oct 13, 2018, 04:34 PM
Number of posts: 6,569

[melman]

12. oof

Not your "A" material...at least I hope it's not.

[InAbLuEsTaTe]

19. LOL!! Obviously not... poof!!

Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!

[betsuni]

10. ...

[DownriverDem]

3. For me

it was different times. My focus is on who can win enough states to beat trump. That truly is all that matters to me and the country.

[Freddie]

9. This.

I can’t emphasize enough, IT WAS A DIFFERENT TIME. Americans were still so extremely angry about 9/11 they were itching to obliterate any country that could possibly have had anything to do with it. Yes, even many Democrats got caught up in the anger.

[Politicub]

33. What I hoped that Biden learned is

that the GOP can not be trusted. They lied in order to lead us into an unwindable conflict against a country that had nothing to do with 9/11 or did not post an imminent threat. Thousands of men and women service members died and tens of thousands of them sustained serious injuries. An uncountable number of Iraqi citizens died, but most agree the number is in the hundreds of thousands.

I don't begrudge Biden for his vote. While there was a vibrant and vocal anti-war contingency in the congress and millions of Americans who were against the war, Biden decided that going to war was better than not. It looks like he realizes his mistake. He can't go back in time and change his vote, but he can look forward.

And how he is looking forward bothers me, to be frank. Publicly, he has said that republicans in congress will fall in line when he is president. And, he said he would be open to a republican running mate (yes, I know he said something like if he could find a qualified republican. Perhaps his tongue was in his cheek; if it was, I didn't get the joke.).

Here's the problem: the GOP has become even more craven since then. It is now a party of cons and grifters in the mold of Trump. A con artist can never be trusted and the Republican Party is full of them.

Biden won't be able to control them. He won't be able to get them to go along with his ideas. I guess he could capitulate to their demands and say that it was cooperation.

So, I hope Biden learned a tough lesson from when the GOP pulled the wool over his eyes. He's the likely nominee, and his cooperation or capitulation or leadership will set the direction the country takes over the next several years. I don't want to give an inch to the GOP. We can not afford it as a country.

[loyalsister]

37. And yet

We're still there and veterans are still dying, suffering (along with their friends and families), and dealing with repeat deployments. AND it was totally foreseeable. He knew better and voted for it anyway.

[Fiendish Thingy]

29. If that was truly all that mattered, then we'd be pushing Oprah to run...

I want someone who can beat Trump, AND provide bold leadership for substantive change.

We’ve got at least two candidates who can do that right now...

[evertonfc]

4. yawn

18 years ago. I mean, he was wrong or ill.advised but what is the relevance now? Whatever the case, I'm riding with Biden.

[melman]

5. relevance now

"Nearly two decades later, Mr. Biden, who by 2005 was calling that vote a mistake, is running for president in part on his foreign policy experience, emphasizing his commander-in-chief credentials at a moment of heightened tensions between the United States and Iran.

Yet the Iraq war vote is part of the extensive record he cites, and he has struggled to accurately account for it on the campaign trail, repeatedly suggesting he opposed the war and Mr. Bush’s conduct from the beginning, claims that detailed fact checks have deemed wrong or misleading."



https://www.nytimes.com/2020/01/12/us/politics/joe-biden-iraq-war.html

[BeyondGeography]

6. He looks all torn up

[left-of-center2012]

7. 18 years ago!

Have none of us done anything the past 18 years we regret, or have changed our mind on?

[loyalsister]

38. People who truly have integrity

admit they were wrong and apologize.

[TidalWave46]

8. Fair game.

Last edited Mon Jan 13, 2020, 11:22 AM - Edit history (1)

Really shows you how bad his opponents shortcomings are in the area of foreign policy. Specially that of Sanders. Even with that blunder Biden is seen as the foreign policy statesman while some of the others are simply viewed as not being experts in the area. It is one area where our field is a bit lacking this time. We have Biden who is very familiar with foreign policy, then a couple of others who are learning and hold solid position, then Sanders who has no consistency whatsoever.

[Act_of_Reparation]

16. Biden being experienced in foreign policy...

...doesn't change or invalidate his authorization to invade Iraq.

If anything, it makes his decision to authorize look a lot worse.

[TidalWave46]

18. The word "blunder" has a meaning.

[Act_of_Reparation]

41. One that doesn't apply here, sure.

[TidalWave46]

42. OK. Then his Iraq war vote was not a blunder. NT

[Act_of_Reparation]

43. It wasn't. He knew exactly what he was doing.

[TidalWave46]

44. lol.

What a fucked up vote.

[Act_of_Reparation]

47. You find this amusing?

[TidalWave46]

48. Yes.

Seeing how long you can be offended by someone who agrees with you is very amusing.

Truly fucked up vote.

[Act_of_Reparation]

54. Do I seem offended to you?

[TidalWave46]

55. Yes.

"You find this amusing?"

It was a devastating vote.

[Act_of_Reparation]

56. It wasn't offense. It was an honest question.

"lol. what a fucked up vote" can be read a number of ways, man. I couldn't tell if you were being sarcastic or serious.

[TidalWave46]

57. Calling going after Bidens vote as "fair game" didn't do it for you?

Calling it a "blunder" didn't do it for you?

Calling it a "fucked up vote" didn't do it for you?

Repeating that it was a "fucked up vote" didn't do it for you?

Calling it a "devastating vote" didn't do it for you?

I made all of those statements, during this exchange, before your reply of "lol. what a fucked up vote" can be read a number of ways, man."

Seems I said much more than just that to shit on his vote.

[Act_of_Reparation]

58. Yeah, your rogue's gallery of sentence fragments were all, each of them, totally unambiguous.

Even though the only complete thoughts you dedicated to this "fair game" criticism were about how all the other candidates are so hopelessly inferior to the guy who helped lead half a million people to their graves to avoid standing in opposition to popular sentiment, there's no fucking way anything you said could possibly be read as sarcasm because... I dunno, you said it more than once, I guess.

But what the fuck do I know? I'm obviously illiterate. Fathoms in over my pate, I retreat forthwith to the grocery store, hoping against hope the boxed confection I intend to assemble for my beloved's natal day includes pictographic instructions. Woe is me!

[NYMinute]

13. What war?

[oasis]

25. Clearly Bush 43's war after he decieved congress by ordering Hans Blix

and UN weapons inspectors out of Iraq.

[NYMinute]

40. I was being facetious

That war is not a burning issue in this campaign -- except for futile exploitation like this OP.

[melman]

45. Then why is this article on the front page of the Times today?

Last edited Mon Jan 13, 2020, 05:10 PM - Edit history (1)

[NYMinute]

49. Sirota's buddies in NYT will pummel Democrats as usual

[melman]

52. lol

[oasis]

46. Bush would never be "43" if not for Naderite knuckleheads.

Anyone who passed on their chance to vote for Al Gore have no standing to criticize Biden's IWR vote which he made in the wake of 9/11.

[myohmy2]

14. think of...

...the lives that would have been saved, the injuries that wouldn't have occurred, the trillions of dollars that would have been in our treasury, the Social Programs and infrastructure that could have been rehabilitated, the domestic jobs that could have been created, the non-expansion of Presidential war powers...if

...we had only followed Bernie and not gone to war in Iraq...

...big decisions have big consequences...

...think about it...

[lark]

15. Think of the lives saved over 40 decades if Bernie ever stood up to the NRA?

Since he's so persuasive, certainly he could have had an impact on gun legislation that was positive instead of negative? Why did he vote multiple times against sensible gun legislation? Has he ever owned this or does he just make excuses?

Everyone makes mistakes. Biden's vote on the war was not good, he made a mistake trusting shrub but he admits his mistake. He has learned from his mistake and was the leading anti-war voice in the Obama administration. Do I wish he was solidly anti-war and distrusted the BFEE more - yes indeed.

However, what is earthshakingly critical for me is to defeat drumpf, and retake the Senate. I think Biden would help the most in both of those. He has the heart and the caring and the steadiness that people want. He's stable, with a long history of giving to the country and not getting rich off of it and people trust him. Think about that.

[Act_of_Reparation]

17. Who do you think you're kidding?

Joe Biden authorized the invasion of Iraq by "mistake"? Like, he thought he was signing a bill appropriating ice cream to cancer patients, and only after he'd put his name on the paper he looked down and saw it was an authorization to invade a sovereign nation without a causus belli?

[George II]

22. What did Biden "sign"? He wasn't president.

[George II]

21. If we're going to start talking about "lives that would have been saved"....

....care to talk about ALL lives that were lost as a consequence of votes in the House or Senate?

Just exactly was the wording that Biden voted for that everyone is dragging up? Has anyone here or elsewhere actually read the legislation for which he and 76 other Senators voted?

Here it is, this should be required reading for anyone discussing this issue:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-107publ243/html/PLAW-107publ243.htm

[TidalWave46]

23. "..we had only followed Bernie and not gone to war in Iraq..."

Good point. Another example of his inability to lead. He was far more successful at blocking a pathway to citizenship.

[George II]

20. Joe Biden never had a "vote for war". Read the document he voted for, please.

[melman]

24. That's the headline direct from the New York Times

And yes he did.

[George II]

27. The headline is incorrect, and no he didn't.

Have you read the resolution? I posted it in this thread. Here it is again:

https://www.govinfo.gov/content/pkg/PLAW-107publ243/html/PLAW-107publ243.htm

[tritsofme]

28. Not a fan a these sort of semantic games.

It doesn’t come off the tongue any better to say they gave Bush sole power to commence hostilities, as he and only he determined necessary.

I don’t care to rake Biden over the coals for this vote, but I don’t like playing pretend either.

[George II]

30. The resolution contained a number provisions that, if not satisfied....

....we could proceed with military action.

Some of those provisions WERE satisfied, but the bush administration falsified documents and outright lied. The resolution did not give the administration permission to lie.

[tritsofme]

32. I'm so sick of this debate, thank goodness this is the last cycle we will ever hear about it

The conditions in the AUMF are incredibly open-ended, he didn’t need to produce documents, it basically empowers him to make a judgment call, George W. Bush’s judgment...It was and remains a very bad law.

[Pantagruel]

35. The "judgement call"

in theory was to be based on the U.N. inspections. That Bush would completely ignore the U.N. was not obvious.
The fault here is on the GOP and Bush, not HRC, Biden or any of the 77 Senators voting to trust the POTUS at that frightening juncture of history.

This entire Iraq War vote debate is counter-productive. Don't try to promote your candidates by denigrating Biden, it plays right into Trump's hands.
With all the Trump outrages, Dems here are arguing a 20 year old dubious mistake, feels like trolls at work!

[tritsofme]

39. Pointing out what the AUMF actually did makes one a troll? What fucking nonsense.

You’re not worth my time.

[KPN]

36. Thank you.

[TidalWave46]

26. This is a perfectly fair argument...

Considering Sanders has authorized force in Iraq and it is one of the ways they attempt to explain it away.

[tirebiter]

34. Blood Traces: Bernie's Iraq War Hypocrisy

Sanders supported Bill Clinton’s war on Serbia, voted for the 2001 Authorization Unilateral Military Force Against Terrorists (AUMF), which pretty much allowed Bush to wage war wherever he wanted, backed Obama’s Libyan debacle and supports an expanded US role in the Syrian Civil War.

-----------------------------------

Serbia I can get because we're not coming from a pacifist position. The AUMF is the one that mattered. It's what made the war endless. IRC, Barbara Lee was the only vote against it. Adam Schiff tried to get a vote to undo it with the backing of Obama who had used it way too often even in his own judgement. I can understand the Libya thing but understanding mistakes doesn't seem to be an option. Again, the AUMF is then tat really matters and Sanders voted for it and the endless war. Trump knows this.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Even Hillary belatedly admitted that her Iraq war vote was a mistake. Bernie, however, has never apologized for his two votes endorsing the overthrow of Saddam. On the rare occasions when Sanders has been confronted about these votes, he has casually dismissed them as being “almost unanimous.” I went back and checked the record. In fact, many members of the progressive caucus in the House, as well as a few libertarian anti-war Members of Congress, vote against the Iraq regime change measures. Here’s a list of the “no” votes on the Iraq Liberation Act of 1998: (see article)




https://www.counterpunch.org/2016/02/16/blood-traces-bernies-iraq-war-hypocrisy/

[Gothmog]

50. Hillary Clinton voted for the Iraq war and still won the primary. Can Joe Biden?

This silly attack did not work against Clinton. Why does sanders think that it will work now? https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2020/01/08/hillary-clinton-voted-iraq-war-still-won-primary-can-joe-biden/

In months of debates, interviews and campaign appearances in the 2016 primary, Sen. Bernie Sanders (I-Vt.) was unable to take down Hillary Clinton by attacking her vote for the Iraq War. Clinton was clearly the more hawkish of the two contenders, defending President Barack Obama’s handling of the war against the Islamic State and calling for a responsible drawdown in Afghanistan. Despite the Democratic Party’s staunch opposition to the war, Clinton won the nomination. She acknowledged the vote was a mistake, but also truthfully recounted that she understood President George W. Bush to be using the resolution to get the United Nations to buy into a joint resolution.

In 2020, Sanders is now making the same argument against former vice president Joe Biden, namely that his Iraq War vote is disqualifying. As Clinton did, Biden may point to his overall record on foreign policy under Obama (e.g., opposing the surge in Afghanistan or using sanctions and diplomacy to get the Iran nuclear deal). He also may attack Sanders as vulnerable — that is to say “unelectable” — because President Trump will easily tag him as weak on national security.....

In any case, Sanders’s critique might get him only so far, even with progressive voters. Biden plainly is skeptical of Trump’s rush to war now and fought in the Obama administration to stop further troop commitments. At worst (from the perspective of the average Democratic primary voter), one could say he was too trusting of Bush, became a war critic (although not immediately), showed his commitment to thoughtful internationalism under Obama and now seems fully capable of taking down Trump on his foreign policy blunders.

Voters are remarkably willing to judge candidates on what they are saying now as long as the candidate appears trustworthy and confident. Many candidates, to the frustration of opponents and/or media critics, have gotten away with changes in position or with past missteps. Voters tend to look at candidates in the present, assess their sincerity and demeanor, and then decide if they can trust them to do the right thing when the candidate is the decision-maker.

[stonecutter357]

51. good let's go Joe !

[melman]

53. bump