Wrong Forum - Sorry

[MineralMan]

[hlthe2b]

1. I am sorry the line between nonsexual contact with clear intent to comfort, support, celebrate and

to connect with other people from those whose intent is purely benign is being increasingly conflated with the ugly, lecherous, subtle (or overtly) sexual acts of others.

I'm not talking kissing, which is very inappropriate but rather pats on the shoulder, arm around the back--that kind of thing. Obviously, drawing someone in for a hug needs far more caution and clear signaling that it is welcome on both parties and certainly with strangers should include asking if they are willing: "may I give you a hug?"

And, no, I'm not talking about work environments, where both male and female staff should be treated similarly professionally--which, in nearly all cases ends with no more than a handshake or a toast of the glass.

But, increasingly, I see what I always experienced throughout my life from kindly, yet demonstrative men AND women to be demonized.

That's all I'm going to say.

[njhoneybadger]

2. Well Said

[MineralMan]

3. The intent of the person offering the contact is irrelevant.

Only the desire for that contact from the other person is relevant. Every time. Given the variation of such desire among individuals, it's always a mistake to assume that contact is wanted. That you want to give contact is fine, but the other person's desire for it is even more important and should be known before contact is made, even "innocuous" contact like a pat on the shoulder. An arm around the back is even more personal, and comes close to being a hug.

My original post focuses on the relationship between the giver and receiver of such contact. If you know the person well, you can probably predict whether or not that contact is wanted. If you do not know the person well, you have no idea whether it is wanted or not. What the giver wants to do is irrelevant. Unless the willingness of the recipient is known, no contact should be made.

Lacking an established relationship, it's best to either ask or not make the contact, in my opinion. In a situation where someone is sad, verbal acknowledgement or words of comfort are a better choice, i think.

Like many people, I welcome such contacts from people I know. I do not welcome such contacts from people I do not know. Relationships matter. If there is no real relationship, keeping one's hands to oneself is the best approach.

[hlthe2b]

4. It most certainly is not irrelevent. You clearly did NOT read my post.

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. A distinction needs to be made between touching with a sexual intent,

which is never appropriate unless the touchee is someone with whom you have an existing relationship of that nature, and touching just because the toucher likes to touch other people because that's what they do to express the desire for a friendly (non-sexual) connection. The latter behavior may be harmless and well-intended but people should realize that not everyone is comfortable being touched by strangers, and that if the touchee is female and the toucher is male, the gesture can easily be interpreted as sexual even if it wasn't intended that way. That sort of contact shouldn't be demonized, but if you don't know someone, don't touch them except by offering a handshake.

And sometimes the touching is a way of establishing phony intimacy - as with some salespeople who can't seem to keep their hands off you when you're shopping for a car or looking at a house that's for sale. Some sales course probably taught them that if they pat their customer's arm or shoulder incessantly while pitching their sale, the customer will feel like the salesperson likes them and wants to be their friend, thereby making it easier to close the deal. That, in particular, bugs the heck out of me, not just because they're invading my personal space but because they're being phony about it.

Short answer: If you don't know me, don't f&cking touch me.

[Jarqui]

6. "So, unless you're certain that your physical gesture is wanted, ask or don't do it at all."

I simply do not think that is realistic or practical. Think it through.

Coming from someone who does not like to be touched.