Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumSo I hear that Bernie Sanders isn't really a Democrat
I can't really counter that argument. Bernie, I am told, has agreed to run as a Democrat for President if he wins the Democratic Party nomination for President. That is a meaningful technicality but still seems a technicality none the less. Throughout his long career Senator Sanders has primarily been identified as an Independent, and therefor at least one step removed from the heart of our two party system in America.
Sanders has shown a good grasp on the pragmatic political implications of our two party system, as evidenced by his membership in good standing in the U.S. Senate Democratic caucus. And also by his refusal to run as a candidate himself for President in a general election without the endorsement of the Democratic Party, differentiating himself from the likes of Ralph Nader and Jill Stein. Still, as so many point out, "Bernie Sanders isn't really a Democrat".
That observation reminds me of another made back in 2016, that time by long time members in good standing of the then traditional Republican Party. They observed, with compelling reasons, that Donald J. Trump wasn't really a Republican. Unlike with Bernie Sanders we don't know for sure if Trump would have run for President as an Independent if he had lost the Republican primaries because, well, he won the Republican primaries. And then, against all odds as determined by the traditional pundits, he went on to win the presidency with, like George W. Bush once before him, the help of the electoral college dispute losing the popular vote. In retrospect pundits noted that Trump assembled what was then thought of as an atypical voter coalition for a Republican presidential candidate, one that tapped into economic distress in "rust belt" states, winning votes that had until recently gone Democratic.
I sense strongly that we are no longer living in traditional mid to late 20th century times. The bases that we had traditionally associated with Democratic and Republican coalitions are shifting at the margins. The core of the major party bases remain as they had been of course. Republicans still can count on anti-abortion and pro-gun voters, and those aligned with the interests of the super wealthy in America. Democrats can count on strong support from People of Color, and from those ideologically liberal. Republicans however are losing some appeal with college educated suburban voters who stood for fiscal conservatism but who are socially moderate or liberal. And Democrats are losing some appeal with the type of working American who may not always be socially liberal but who previously supported Democrats on economic grounds. The type of voters who might have been in unions a few decades ago when unions were still strong in America but now are free agents more up for grabs.
Loyalty to both of our major parties is more fluid now than it was a couple of decades ago. The percentage of Americans who refuse to register with either party continues to rise. The thing is, we are being myopic if we insist on looking at this trend taking place in America in isolation from what has happening in the rest of the world.The grip of established political parties throughout the world on electorates has been loosening. Mexico was a one party state for decades, now there are three or more parties capable of electing a president. The UK once had Labor and the Conservatives, with a smattering of Liberal Party MP's, but now representation in parliament is significantly more scattered with new political parties popping up. France's current president cobbled together a brand new political party to victoriously lead into elections, upsetting the previous long standing political order. New viable political parties have emerged in Israel. The Green Party is now a partner of various current or recent governing coalitions in Europe, something that rarely if ever happened in the late 20th Century. In newer democracies, where mainstream political parties have shallow roots, they are often swept away by grassroots movements that emerge seemingly from nowhere, as was the case with Zelinsky in Ukraine.
Even when traditional political parties remain viable inside their countries, the leadership of those parties is starting to emerge from more maverick elements operating within them. Trump is an obvious example here, but Boris Johnson in the UK is no John Majors Conservative, nor is Jeremy Corbyn in line with Tony Blair type Labor leadership. Political norms in the 21st century have become more unstable, as election results swing wildly from right to left to right again with no indication of settling anytime soon. There is a general unease with what was seen as the previously established political order, both here and abroad. Our own two party political system remains intact for now, but there are new currents gaining force below the surface that occasionally burst into view. There is an anti-establishment mood growing in much of the world. Some call it populism, whether from the left or right. And unlike how people like me used the term "establishment" back in the late 60's, today that term is less ideologically laden. Now it more represents the status quo, whatever that may be.
So I hear that Bernie Sanders isn't really a Democrat. OK, got it. But I'm not sure that would overall be a liability today for a candidate running with Democratic Party support in the general election. If that is true, those who are well established within the current political order are likely to be among the last to recognize the shifting the sands.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
doc03
(35,344 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)I know you didn't have time to actually read what I wrote and consider the point that I was making
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)True Dems find him insulting every 4 years and you can't counter that at all.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PufPuf23
(8,785 posts)and have voted exclusively Democratic with one exception, voted for John Anderson in the 1980 California primary to slow Reagan (who I detested as a Cal student when he was Governor and resigned as a Fed after 16 years when Reagan was POTUS).
I supported Sanders in 2016, then backed into Sanders as my candidate as usual, politically used to not getting what I want for a choice. Wish Sanders was not running for POTUS now (also wish Biden was not in the mix).
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
KPN
(15,646 posts)What are your metrics? I am wondering. After all, I'm a registered Democrat and have been for 49 years. I've voted Dem on every ballot throughout that period.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
LakeArenal
(28,819 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Since 2006, he has always run as a Democrat in a primary, then turns down the nomination and runs in the General (in Vermont since 2006) as an Independent, then has always served as an Independent, if he wins.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)true members of the Democratic Party. That is major for many of us. I don't understand why some folks just don't get it including the original poster. How do you think we feel when he leaves the party after he loses?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
KPN
(15,646 posts)There are just as many that don't feel that way, and more when you include former D's who are now I's.
But here's the thing. As far as I can tell, there is no such thing as a "true Democrat".
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
NCProgressive
(1,315 posts)that remain dormant in the ground but every so many years, start growing around and up a tree, sending roots into the tree's vascular bundles, sucking up all the nutrition for their own growth.
Many times the tree dies and the vine finds another tree to climb on.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
True Blue American
(17,985 posts)Parties change. At times they need to regroup. The question is, can Republicans change
Democrats have many times. The funny thing is it often takes a real billionaire to do that for the middle class.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
chwaliszewski
(1,514 posts)Bernie is being indirectly compared to a parasitic plant, yes?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
True Blue American
(17,985 posts)New shoots of the tree!,)
I think we witnessed a few over the last 3 days.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to chwaliszewski (Reply #9)
RandiFan1290 This message was self-deleted by its author.
NCProgressive
(1,315 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
chwaliszewski
(1,514 posts)I will interpret exactly what you were trying to imply.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
UniteFightBack
(8,231 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Scurrilous
(38,687 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
loveboy
(44 posts)We need to look less at labels we apply to people and more towards their ideas and policies. Labels are like clothes that can be changed in a second. Its his beliefs and policies over a lifetime that prove Bernie to be a Democrat.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)If that were true he wouldn't quit when he loses now would he? It's insulting to many of us.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
loveboy
(44 posts)But we should not exclude them. Look to their heart not the label on their jacket. Trump waves the flag but hes the least patriotic person in the USA. Bernie may not fit a neat check the box role, but are all of us so binary. At heart he is clearly a Democrat, perhaps one of the best based on his policies and track record of taking strong stands for justice where others havent.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Clash City Rocker
(3,396 posts)Arent family members and never were.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
loveboy
(44 posts)And theres always two sides to the story. Historically all figures leading change were vilified by the mainstream, Jesus, Gandhi, MLK ... the very definition of bravery is going into territory that others fear to tread and Bernie has done that.
Yes, hes at fault for some things but who isnt? We all make mistakes and the DNC itself has its fair share of issues. Regardless, all must unite in support for Biden or Bernie, whoever wins the nomination.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"No, I'm an Independent," Sanders said when asked by MSNBC's Chris Hayes whether he now identifies as a Democrat.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/329418-sanders-i-do-not-consider-myself-a-democrat
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
NurseJackie
(42,862 posts)... and all the LIES about how the Democrats are "intellectually bankrupt" and "ideologically bankrupt"... and that Democrats are "the party of the elite" and "the party of the one-percent" and that there's "no difference between Democrats and the GOP".
That's the kind of divisive bullshit that I can't stand. I'll never be able to trust or support anyone who denigrates the party that I love and support.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
True Blue American
(17,985 posts)And want to ask, if Democrats are no longer relevant why doesnt Bernie run as the Independant Socialist he says he is?
Not trying to be smart here, simply discussing.
Thank you.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
True Blue American
(17,985 posts)We have had many Independents run over the years Bernie could run on his own Principles.
We know what they are.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)was in 2000. We know how that turned out.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Just giving the OP the benefit of the doubt for this reply, who are "we?" I certainly don't count myself in allegiance with Ralph Nader (who didn't run as an independent, btw) anymore than I do Ross Perot, who garnered much more support than Nader in his '92 run.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
True Blue American
(17,985 posts)The elections. Many Independents have run.
When you run as one party, say you will go back to the Senate as a member of that party, then switch back until the next time, you are not.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Sorry, not trying to be difficult, but I'm not following. Many independent have run, but the example given wasn't an independent, nor was he the most successful of candidates outside the two party system. Not even close. And in a scenario where Sanders ran as an independent, he'd likely garner less actual votes than Secretary Wallace or Senator Thurmond.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PufPuf23
(8,785 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PufPuf23
(8,785 posts)Perot had more to do with the results of 1992 than Nader did in Gore's loss in 2000.
Gore actually would have won Florida if the protocol had been followed and recount completed. That said, at the time thought Nader had no business running as POTUS.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)If one can find arguments for the opposite, then I'd hope one would provide such an argument that extends beyond the conventional wisdom you're coming from.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PufPuf23
(8,785 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)Say hello to trump's second term if he wins the nomination. It's clear that his supporters either don't know or don't care that the repubs have a ton on him and would release it immediately. It's called define your opposition first. Then say hello to trump's second term.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)you don't know all the baggage that the repubs would release. We are a Center/Left country, but voters would run to trump if he gets the nomination. Or they just wouldn't vote for president. He insults us every 4 years and you think it's funny.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)woman and because she is LGBTQ... for the greater good I guess... rah rah...the revolution.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)than someone else who likes and supports Bernie, Yeah he's an ass but he can't suddenly make smart people become asses. Bernie didn't hire him, he's not campaigning for him. He's not going to work in the administration if he wins. He's nothing more than a comedian that isn't funny to some and is funny to others.
So rah rah... whatever.
^^ ^^^^^^^^^^^
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #43)
RandiFan1290 This message was self-deleted by its author.
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brush
(53,784 posts)if he runs as a socialist. Who's kidding who?
And with his socialist baggage there's no way he'll beat trump.
If he gets the Dem nod it'll be McGovern2.0a rout for four more year of trump and possibly the end of the republic.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)media attention...
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
brush
(53,784 posts)will run ads 24/7 with youtube videos of him calling himself a socialist. And FOX and hate radio will do the same.
McGovern2.0
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)Money also played a role in his decision to run as a Democrat, Sanders added.
To run as an independent, you need you could be a billionaire," he said. "If you're a billionaire, you can do that. I'm not a billionaire. So the structure of American politics today is such that I thought the right ethic was to run within the Democratic Party.
https://www.politico.com/blogs/2016-dem-primary-live-updates-and-results/2016/03/bernie-sanders-independent-media-coverage-220747
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to True Blue American (Reply #6)
RandiFan1290 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Autumn
(45,102 posts)Dems put up with him.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
PufPuf23
(8,785 posts)would lose too much of the base to be competitive in elections.
Thankfully this has eased some since 2016.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)does he insult us every 4 years?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to DownriverDem (Reply #24)
RandiFan1290 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Autumn
(45,102 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
sweetloukillbot
(11,026 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)candidate runs for president every 4 years? On my state ballot there were 20 candidates not counting Hillary and Trump. That was just in CO.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)many organizations begged hc to join the green party in their quest for a hand count of the votes and an actual evaluation of the machines
our next nominee needs to be ready to fight for a fair count!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Autumn
(45,102 posts)a fair election and they know it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)but Georgia will have paper ballots for the first time since the mid 60s in 2020
they will still be counted by machine but in theory the paper is there if the candidate pushes for a hand count
Pennsylvania will have paper ballots, a few other states and peops are still working
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212888619
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212878729
https://www.democraticunderground.com/100212861351
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)an endorsement from a guy that really really likes the Proud Boys...good old Joe Rogan.I do not believe Sanders will be the nominee and it is not because of the 'establishment' but because of choice made by Sanders...to hire Stein supporters, to welcome Rogan's endorsement and to attack Warren and other candidate with lies. Warren is not an elitist.
Well you can't always pick who endorses you but Sanders welcomed the praise and re-tweeted it. My values are what they are...I do not believe in Racism,misogyny , and persecution against LGBTQ. I do not welcome those who believe in these things and make their living persecuting others (Rogan) into the big tent period. It is non-negotiable. Thus as a primary candidate, Sanders is over for me. I will vote for him in the general as the lesser of two evils. I always wanted Sanders to join our Party. Today, I thank God he is not a member of the Democratic Party.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Response to Demsrule86 (Reply #48)
RandiFan1290 This message was self-deleted by its author.
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)be silent while some who do not speak for us welcome a POS like Rogan into this truly wonderful Party. We do not support his racism, misogyny and hatred directed at LGBTQ. This too shall pass. We are stronger than the likes of Rogan. My problem is with Sanders as a candidate...I do not nor ever will support him in a primary...only in the general.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)...you know, before I realized I already had. LOL.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
marble falls
(57,099 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)That's why Bernie is a TRUE BLUE DEMOCRAT'S DEMOCRAT!!!
That's why working class people LOVE Bernie!!
That's why Bernie will win the Democratic nomination and President Sanders will go on to govern for those of us on Main Street, not for the corporate elites on Wall Street!!
Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
genxlib
(5,528 posts)When people get frustrated and leave the parties, they are simply ceding the power to those that stay in the party. This move towards people registering for independent status just means they don't get to participate in choosing the candidates.
Then, the hard core believers who stay are picking candidates that are more and more outside the mainsteam. Those independents then go to vote in the general election and find themselves disgusted with the choices. Which only further drives them away. It is a death spiral of disgust and apathy.
This has happened in extreme measure to the Republican Party for sure. Sane moderates have left which means only the drooling mouth breathers pick the candidates. But the Democratic Party certainly suffers from it as well from a lesser degree.
Of course the answer would be to break the lock of the two party system but that simply isn't in the cards in the foreseeable future.
I don't care how frustrated I am with the Democratic Party, I will never become an independent. Doing that just makes you a self imposed exile while other people decide your fate.
In the immortal words of Neil Peart..."Those who choose not to decide, still have made a choice".
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
True Blue American
(17,985 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)doesn't have party registration. In primaries you have to pick a party, but in the actual elections you can split your vote or vote straight party.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
genxlib
(5,528 posts)People are free to vote their choice in the general.
But their choices are effectively limited to whomever the primary voters have chosen. Not participating in those primaries leaves more radical people to choose the candidates
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Bernie showed up at the church, refused to join, condemned the members, then asked to be the pastor. It doesn't work that way.
Fortunately we'll see him flame out after Super Tuesday and the entire conversation will be moot.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
True Blue American
(17,985 posts)Than I am giving.point made.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DownriverDem
(6,228 posts)I feel he insults us every 4 years and his supporters are clueless.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Response to Autumn (Reply #33)
RandiFan1290 This message was self-deleted by its author.
zentrum
(9,865 posts).....the church is always above reproach.
Even though churches in the North are closing and the Catholic church is bleeding priests and nuns and giving sermons to half empty churches on Sunday.
Just using your analogy.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Doesn't matter how empty the pews may be, how corrupt the church may be, the fact of what I said remains. You can apply it to a church, a company, even a cheerleading squad. No one gets to trash the organization and it's members then demand to be it's leader.
Oh, and then complain when the organization votes down/votes out/blocks the outsider.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)disgruntled members that the leaders realize are wrong. Otherwise the best party leader ever would have already done it. She hasn't. Sorry.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)It will be all over for Bernie... again... after super tuesday.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Thanks for admitting the 2016 primaries were not rigged against Bernie. He lost it without being voted down/voted out/blocked.
btw, no one believes 'she' (and assume by 'she' you meant Nancy Pelosi) is the leader of the DNC - the organizational body of the Democratic party.
Super Tuesday, the organization's shareholders (if that term makes you feel better) will send Bernie packing again.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)consider the DNC to lead anything and I have no interest in discussing them or 2016. YMMV. Organization is your term that you used. Not mine.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)... Pelosi is, in no way, the leader of the organization. She may be it's most influential board member, it's prime stakeholder. but the leader of the DNC is currently Tom Perez, former U.S. Secretary of Labor under Barack Obama.
American political parties have no real official leadership. The power rests in the people - the voters.
But Nancy Pelosi has been so accepting of Bernie Sanders, she said late last year, "As a left-wing San Francisco liberal I can say to these people: What are you thinking? You can ask the left theyre unhappy with me for not being a socialist. Remember November, you must win the Electoral College.
Sounds like an endorsement to me... but not of Bernie Sanders.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Autumn
(45,102 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Sure, you have a great day, too.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
zentrum
(9,865 posts).....left Bernie. Not the other way around. You know, the big neo-liberal change that happened in the late 80's with the DLC.
He's someone who can beat Trump now and that's all that matters.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)Since Bernie was never a Democrat, the party couldn't have left him.
DLC boogeyman again? LOL. You really want to discuss that? The party was never as left as Bernie. Ever. We can debate all day long whether that's a good thing or a bad thing. But it is a fact.
He couldn't beat Hillary. But he can beat Trump?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
PufPuf23
(8,785 posts)Not comparing Sanders to Jesus and as noted above I do not support Sanders as a POTUS candidate now but will vote for him if Democratic candidate in General Election.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
wyldwolf
(43,867 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
zentrum
(9,865 posts).....whom I believe can beat TRump. Bernie is one of them.
Am I happy to support Bloomberg who was once a Repug? No. But will support anyone running as a Democrat in 2020, who gets the nomination.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Right now there are 5 potentially viable candidates who can plausibly do so. After NH it is unlikely there will be more than two or three, and there's a very good chance that Bernie will be one of those, though that is not certain.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
mountain grammy
(26,623 posts)Or doesnt really isnt the point. Ive seen Bernie haters on this board who say theyll vote for the Democratic candidate but will quit the party and go independent. Thats what my oldest son did after being a registered Democrat since he turned 18 (hes 51). He voted for Hillary and became an Independent. That swings both ways. He also badmouthed Pelosi last time I saw him. I called him after the impeachment vote and said i wanted to slap him for what he said He said, good I deserve it.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Horizens
(637 posts)Sanders first ran for office as member of the Liberty Union Party. When that no longer served his needs he ran as an independent. He registered as a Democrat in Nov. 2015 in order to run for president then left the party shortly after failing to get the nomination. So what is Bernie? Hes an opportunist in search of the resources and support of an organization he's done nothing to build . a political pig who feeds at whatever trough suits his immediate need.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
MontanaMama
(23,319 posts)of membership cards...for real.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
JudyM
(29,251 posts)It brings into clearer view the issue some here ignore: what if his status as an ally rather than establishment is viewed as appealing to those who like his platform and his values (shared with Dems, based on his voting record)? Do their votes for him as a Dem candidate not matter to us? Rejecting him out of hand, as the immediate comments to your post illustrate, is perilously narrow minded. If beating the orange beast is truly all that matters, we damned well better be looking at the whole picture that you aptly describe.
Its remarkable how some are insistent on a Dem purity test when the boundaries among the voters are so obviously fluid.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts)As a Sanders supporter, you seem to think thats a good thing, or at least savvy. Here, along those lines, is what a friend of mine just wrote:
One of those candidates has been Warren, who you once supported. Rather than call out destructive behavior that will lead us absolutely nowhere, you threw in with Sanders. Hooray for you.
Back to Bernie/Trump, the latter only asked the worst of people (hatred, envy, greed), which is so much easier than the communal goals that Bernie is striving for. His tactics have been effective in the short term, but as they have worsened divisions within our own party, they are doomed to fail, hopefully sooner than later. Party on.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Comparing a cat to a lion may be enlightening in one regard, but misleading in another. I was speaking to aspects of appeal, you moved to a comparison of perceived selective behavior. And while there may be a relationship between the two, it is not at all linear.
I want to win in November and I know that you do also. I am open to supporting any of our viable candidates who show the potential to put together a winning coalition in November. Right now I believe that comes down to Biden. Sanders, Warren, Klobuchar, and Bloomberg. This OP explores my reason for thinking that Sanders may be best positioned to pull off that winning coalition. As I am sure you noticed, I did not say a single negative word about any of our other candidates, their campaigns, and /or their supporters.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
BeyondGeography
(39,374 posts)Your candidate has a whole cottage industry that does it for you.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)But that has been a terrible development. The rise of worldwide populism has been a terrible development, as we've seen fascists, and bigots, and anti-Semites ride waves of irrational extremism that evoke memories of the 1930s.
Populism is the mortal enemy of liberalism and liberal democracy. It could not be a greater threat to the traditional values of the Democratic Party, not a greater threat to a peaceful world order.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Demsrule86
(68,582 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)No doubt what you describe has happened in the past, is happening in places now, and can happen virtually anywhere in the future. But populism tends to surge, whether from the left or right, when genuine systematic problems go un or under addressed by those whose hands hold the levers of power. Right wing populism is virtually always fueled by manipulating fears and redirecting them to service the interests of the few.
The anti Vietnam war movement was a populist movement that challenged the then leadership of both the Republican and Democratic parties and it had its roots in a genuine rejection of the direction that our nation was then being steered toward. It flared up in response to Vietnam, but U.S interventionist internationalist policies had a long and decidedly checkered track record. In South America for example, and in Iran where U.S. involvement in the overthrow of a democratically elected government there and the installation of the Shah ultimately led to the Islamist revolution and the seizure of the U.S. embassy in Tehranand much of the unrest in the Middle East today.
Populism fed the growth of the U.S. Labor movement at the turn of twentieth century, which was not led by the then established political parties. With nimble and responsive political leadership, populism can be harnessed into a force for social good. and it can be channeled constructively. But populism arises naturally in times of stress. It can not simply be condemned for its unruly nature and then wished away. FDR is probably the prime example in American history of a responsible political leader who knew how to channel populism for the good of our nation.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)It was certainly a protest against the policies of both political parties, but lacked the other elements of populism.
There was no demagogic figure leading the movement who promise he alone has all the answers. The identification of scapegoats who were responsible for all societies problems was also lacking (as general "anti-establishment" discontent is not enough).
Populism can never be harnessed for good. It is a terrible impulse that speaks to the very worst in human nature. All populism does is to increase strife and violence, and to crowd rationality out of the political sphere.
Every populist movement that has gain power has gone authoritarian/totalitarian. And all the most dastardly regiemes--the ones who've committed 100s of millions of political murders have all had populist roots.
Populism is based on manipulating rage and fanning political irrationality. Liberalism, at its core, requires political rationality as the operative condition. Which makes populism the greatest possible threat to liberal democracy and the traditional values of the Democratic Party.
As liberals, nothing should cause more grave concern than a rise of worldwide populism.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)You say "Populism is based on manipulating rage and fanning political irrationality" I think it is more fundamental than that. If you want to use charged language, populism is the rage, rage at an untenable and unsustainable status quo propped up by a minority who benefit strongly from it. That rage can certainly be misdirected and that rage can be manipulated, or that rage can fuel a movement for positive social change. When the latter is done effectively, rage can be transformed into a steely resolve to not rest until justice is achieved. That requires a certain type of enlightened leadership that understands that while "something must give", mere rage virtually never brings about positive results.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)is perceived as being the root cause of all that society's problems.
Populists and anti-Populists might adopt different terms to describe this condition, "rage at an untenable and unsustainable status quo" vs "scapegoating and demagoguery," but it describes the same rage-based politics that identifies one segment of society (the "people" ) who pin their resentments on some other segment of society.
Who the scapegoats are differs from movement to movement. The rage remains the same.
Rage based movements never lead to positive results.
The civil rights struggles had success by rejecting populist impulses.
Rage is bad voodoo. Rage is incompatible with reason. Liberalism is incompatible with political irrationality.
Populists play with fire. How many hundreds of millions of victims of populist regiemes need to perish before people see that populism is the most illiberal and most dangerous ideology on the planet?
In no way, shape, of form is populism a good thing.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)The anti Apartheid movement in South Africa was sparked and to a large extent fueled by "rage at an untenable and unsustainable status quo" but I would not say that it was based on "scapegoating and demagoguery," There was rage at the Boston Tea Party but the American revolution, at root, was not a movement incompatible with reason, even though it ultimately literally took the form of an armed rebellion, resulting in the most successful liberal democracy in history. We had good leaders then, and we need them now.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)One that embraced rage and violence and one that retained a loyalty to liberal ideals.
Mandela represented the latter. Some of his successors, like Zuma, represented the former.
God help the South African people if the populist elements shape the future of their nation.
Good leadership has never risen out populist demagoguery. No, instead populism has deliveed up the bloodiest tyrants in the history of humankind.
Populism is a disease. Liberalism is the answer. That's why I'm a Democrat.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Tom Rinaldo
(22,913 posts)Those whose whose populist leadership you condemn are the ones you are willing to call populists.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)There are clear lines of demarcation, in my estimation.
Populism and Populists are NEVER causes for celebration.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,722 posts)He's figuratively nailed his 95 theses to the door of the DNC railing about the corruption and inadequacies of the "church" to which he claims (at least for now) to belong. The big difference is that Martin Luther didn't demand to be elected Pope.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)and for all the material possession of Jews to be confiscated. Luther's vicious anti-Semitic populism laid the foundations for a future populist anti-Semitic movement in Germany.
Populism is a disease. Not a cure.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Velveteen Ocelot
(115,722 posts)But that's completely unrelated to the point I was trying to make. Luther was trying to reform the Catholic Church, which he considered corrupt and heretical. Sanders seems to be trying to do the same thing with the Democratic party - except that Luther actually was a Catholic, but Bernie isn't a Democrat, and Luther wasn't trying to become the head of the organization he was criticizing, while Bernie is.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)but just because a person like Luther was a critic of "corruption" does not erase the fact that he was burdened with his own evils.
This is one of the object lessons we ought to learn about the dangers of populism.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
RandySF
(58,885 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Me.
(35,454 posts)and run as an Independent for both the prez and the Senate. And don't forget, he runs as a Dem in the Vermont Senate Primary, then once he wins the nom he switches back to being an Independent.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
InAbLuEsTaTe
(24,122 posts)Bernie/Elizabeth or Elizabeth/Bernie 2020!!
Either way, they're stronger together & can't be bought!!
Jump on the Bernie Bandwagon & join the revolution!!
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
tirebiter
(2,537 posts)They call themselves socialists, too. And he actually ran as a member of the Sociaist Workers Party at one time. Never won on that though. You think Trumps organization doesnt know this. They cant take a confrontation with a Real Democrat.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
booley
(3,855 posts)To these people, Sanders represents what Democrats used to be, what they should be now. He represents the values that made people want to be Democrats.
And I am one of them.
To me, being a democrat is more than just having a D by your name on a placard. It is telling that what I said above can be true but also that Sanders benefits from not calling himself a Democrat. The Democratic party has been in denial about itself for far too long. People like Sanders can help save the party from itself.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)He represents values that I oppose with every fiber of my being.
I am, and have always been, a liberal Democrat.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)because that is what Bernie wants
for
HEALTHCARE TO BE A HUMAN RIGHT
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)you said you are against what Bernie stands for
and Bernie stands for healthcare being a human right so I take it that you are against healthcare being a human right?
you didn't say I am against everything Bernie stands for except on healthcare....
the treatment we working poor get comes from the community healthcare clinics, clinics that operate with money Bernie got into the aca for us, the forgotten
so if you are against everything Bernie stands for you are basically against me being alive
don't worry I do not wish the same on you
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)If you think that I want you to die, I don't know what to say to you.
Quite the opposite.
Populist regimes have the worst records on that front. I stand with liberal Democrats.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)so you are against social security, Medicare, roads, bridges ,the police department, the fire department, public education and community healthcare clinics and healthcare for all?
that sounds like the opposite of a liberal democrat
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
The Valley Below
(1,701 posts)Saying that it is is a right-wing talking point (something I think that is deeply frowned upon here).
Same with Medicare, roads, bridges ,the police department, the fire department, public education and community healthcare clinics. Not socialism.
Socialism is the collective ownership of the means of production and distribution.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
questionseverything
(9,656 posts)lol at early deaths from lack of healthcare is more of a right wing thing
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ehrnst
(32,640 posts)"No, I'm an Independent," Sanders said when asked by MSNBC's Chris Hayes whether he now identifies as a Democrat.
https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/329418-sanders-i-do-not-consider-myself-a-democrat
And he didn't want to run for POTUS on the Democratic ticket until Tad Devine and his advisers told him to:
His longtime consultant Tad Devine and the rest of the group came down hard: this is never going to have a chance of working unless you get over it. Suck it up, they told him.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
sheshe2
(83,785 posts)We should believe him. I can't understand why his supporters doubt him.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
LiberalLovinLug
(14,174 posts)Thank you for laying it out in all its truthful glory.
I just hope enough Democratic delegates realize the shifting sands, and how important it is to NOT nominate at traditional establishment candidate at this time.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
delisen
(6,044 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Gothmog
(145,291 posts)Why does sanders have so many liars like Sirota and stein supporters on his campaign. These people should have no role in a Democratic campaign
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Duppers
(28,125 posts)So was Hillary. But we never hear that mentioned here, do we?
Those who put labels over principles are narrow minded and usually have some ax to grind. We might even say they're unprincipled.
I just aim to dethrone that psychopathic narcissist.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden