Democratic Primaries
Related: About this forumSanders' student debt forgiveness plan could give 100x as much to future lawyers, execs and doctors
as it gives to the poorest students who might owe only small amounts.
That's because typical law school grads, as well as typical grads of the best business schools for MBAs, usually have more than $100,000 in student loans. Med school grads usually have over $200,000.
These are loans that weren't forced on anyone. They were taken out in the expectation that they wouldn't be that hard to pay off, given the high incomes those graduates can expect.
Forgiving those loans, as if these graduates need as much help as someone stuggling with student debt while working a minimum-wage job, is NOT socialism, or even any kind of social safety net.
This is an extremely regressive proposal.
Warren's plan is also regressive, as was pointed out in an analysis by an Obama Treasury Dept official now with Brookings:
https://www.brookings.edu/blog/up-front/2019/04/24/how-progressive-is-senator-elizabeth-warrens-loan-forgiveness-proposal/
But the Sanders plan is much worse. Much more regressive.
And the attack ads write themselves.
Democrats are usually skeptical, if not sharply critical, of spending that primarily benefits people with higher incomes.
We shouldn't let concern about student debt blind us to how regressive these plans, especially the Sanders plan, really are.
It's important to help people who are genuinely struggling with student debt.
But people who took on hundreds of thousands in student debt in the expectation of making hundreds of thousands a year (if not more) in the future because of those degrees do NOT need to be bailed out.
Btw, this is a separate problem from funding public colleges, including community colleges, and bringing the costs for those down as far as possible to help students.
That's something that would help college students in general.
Forgiving $100,000+ in student loans for people who will likely make millions more than others with student debt is simply a bad use of money.
And God knows we have enough other needs for that money, from infrastructure to the environment.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
jberryhill
(62,444 posts)Then the doctors won't complain so much about setting reasonable prices for procedures.
Where does the money come from to pay back the doctors' student loans?
It comes from sick people. That's where.
WE are paying back those loans - through medical insurance, through medicare, etc..
You know who benefits most from lawyers being expensive? Guess. It's not people getting screwed by big businesses.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Docreed2003
(16,862 posts)It's not like I can charge whatever I want to take your gallbladder out, or offer discount pricing or end of year specials.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
highplainsdem
(48,994 posts)Sanders' debt forgiveness plan requiring those doctors to lower their prices.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
mopinko
(70,115 posts)he cant seem to see enough grey to grok a sliding scale.
just take the bankruptcy protection away from these lenders. how they get that on guaranteed loans would be a mystery to me, but i know they bought that fair and square.
but just strip that shit.
i have a friend who went to northwestern law school in the 80's. he got a cheap bs, then took loans for law school. he was doing great till, 10 years in, he got cracked for weed.
he surrendered his license, lost his private practice, and went broke.
also got divorced and lost custody/visitation of his daughter.
he went through bankruptcy, but couldnt dump the loans for a now worthless golden sheepskin.
he is 56, and still paying on his paralegal salary. he has very little saved for retirement.
sorta his fault, but still. he could get it back now if he wanted to go through the hassle, but he is happy in the job he has.
he wouldnt lose it today, tho.
this is just the sort of thing bankruptcy is for.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
highplainsdem
(48,994 posts)https://joebiden.com/beyondhs/
That's for private loans.
He's also recommending a plan to forgive $10,000/yr in student loans, for up to five years, for public service, and with automatic enrollment in the plan.
And of course federal loans are forgiven after 20 years.
So I'm guessing your friend -- who has my sympathies -- has mostly private loans.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Docreed2003
(16,862 posts)It's like having a mortgage hanging over your head. I started Med school at 21 and finished residency at 30. I would say most physicians entering practice are even older than I was. Committing to a graduate degree and the subsequent years of training removes many years of earning potential. Now, making those years up can be done within certain medical specialties but not all or most. All that said, I think that a reasonable middle ground for student loan forgiveness would be if one were to commit to practicing in a rural or underserved area, Indian reservation, or military service for a period of years then those loans could be forgiven.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
highplainsdem
(48,994 posts)to practicing in a rural or underserved area, Indian reservation, or military service for a period of years then those loans could be forgiven."
I posted about Biden's plans for higher education yesterday, and they include forgiving $10,000/yr of student debt for up to 5 years for public service.
Given the high cost of medical school, I don't think it would be unreasonable to up that to $25,000/yr debt forgiveness, or more.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Docreed2003
(16,862 posts)It's addressing the problem in a meaningful way and bettering our communities at the same time.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Happy Hoosier
(7,308 posts)Back when I got my BS, I was in a program where the Navy would pay my tuition, fees and books in full in exchange for for an equivalent year of service (civilian engineer). It was a good deal.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)Seems kinda unfair, no? At least according to the op.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
ismnotwasm
(41,988 posts)He is over 300K in debt. He tells students dont get into this for the money
He said he and his wife will ultimately life comfortably, happily, but will be by no means rich
In the other hand, I know a surgeon, very nice guy, who took his kid to high end colleges to tour which ones they might like. Kid had the grades, did the work, but not many people get to assess their choices so personally.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
bucolic_frolic
(43,175 posts)just seems like feeding income inequality even more. Their earnings prospects as a group are great! Are you doing anything for waitresses, bakers, factory workers, retail clerks?
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
highplainsdem
(48,994 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
jimfields33
(15,814 posts)For example I know some lawyers doing paralegal work due to saturation of lawyers. Also lawyers are big time discriminated on looks. If you dont look good for the partners, forget it. Im not saying all, but it is there unproven of course.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
radical noodle
(8,003 posts)It's not equitable at all.
We could start by simply reducing the interest rates that are charged on student debt. That would help everyone, then go on to do debt forgiveness for those who really need it.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Nt
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Every social program, there's going to be a few "underserving" people who get benefits, like able-bodied people who get disability, people who buy steaks with food stamps, etc.
Progressives see people in need, and want to help them. Right-wingers don't want to help people in need, and so they focus on the "welfare queens" in order to ensure that the needy don't get any help.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
highplainsdem
(48,994 posts)Treasury for Tax Analysis.
He explains why Warren's plan is regressive.
And the Sanders plan is much worse, much more regressive.
I want people in need to get help.
If you think I don't, you don't understand my OP at all, or the replies here.
Helping people in need doesn't require wiping out student debt for lawyers, doctors, and business execs with MBAs from the best and most expensive schools.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)It's 1988 all over again. The more things change...
And, no, the plans are obviously not regressive when the revenues are included. Everyone knows this. Centrists and right-wingers like to slice up any social program to try and find one piece of it they can describe as "regressive" or "benefitting the underserving". Like saying social security is regressive because the payroll tax is capped. I mean, yeah, the tax itself is regressive, but the entire social security program is not, and just like the debt relief, everyone knows this also.
It's the same game.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
radical noodle
(8,003 posts)if you want to classify the wealthy as "welfare queens." What a crock.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)Conservatives bring that up in order to trigger jealousy and resentment. The purpose is to fight against any kind of social benefit for the needy. It's an old playbook.
A few decades ago, the story was "we are all too familiar with the stories of welfare mothers driving luxury cars and leading lifestyles that mirror the rich and famous." Now it's about rich kids with student debt.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
Hassin Bin Sober
(26,330 posts)primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
radical noodle
(8,003 posts)They didn't have to be wealthy, just black and getting benefits... but spending them frivolously. Wealthy people already get plenty of benefits others don't. We don't need to add to that inequality.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)That same tired argument was used by the right against Social Security, Medicare, Medicaid and any other useful progressive social program.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
DanTex
(20,709 posts)I mean, we get it, Biden is a centrist, some people like centrists, maybe it takes a centrist to win against Trump. Fine, make that argument. Makes sense.
But actually tearing down progressive policies using right-wing memes is weird. Like, is anyone going to actually believe that Biden is the "real progressive" and Bernie and Warren are pushing policies that favor the rich?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
booley
(3,855 posts)IF one successful doctor or Lawyer gets his student loan forgiven for every 10,000 people who are teachers and programmers and whatever...I am ok with that.
The OP looks like concern trolling to me.
The GOP is inevitably going to attack this. Why hand them the tools to do so right off the bat?
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
squirecam
(2,706 posts)Nt
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
booley
(3,855 posts)Poor people never go for a Business major?
That alone seems a fatal flaw in your argument as it presupposes that anyone who enters these fields was from a wealthy family, to begin with. And that such a degree is a guarantee of wealth. College was always supposed to be a path to higher social mobility. Though that is not a guarantee, especially if you start out with crushing debt.
I am reminded of my friend Bry who has 100,000 in debt.. from a law degree.. and is working at a crappy exploitative job that only just helps him pay his student loans. That is, after years of being unemployed. If he didn't have that debt he could start to pull ahead.
A few other problems with this argument
Sanders loan forgiveness only applies to Public Universities. Rich families don't' send their kids to the local school.
We have a shortage of Doctors so personally I don't' care even if they will get rich in the end. Though more likely not having crushing debt will mean some of those doctors will be ok working at clinics and rural hospitals.
Rich people are the ones paying for this. So who cares if they benefit when their success means they will pay it right back into the system?
Finally, universality makes for a stronger system. Once we do means testing, we habd Republicans the tools they need to start dismantling it. Just like they do with food stamps and other programs.
So yeah... I can't really accept your argument here. It has too many flaws.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided
highplainsdem
(48,994 posts)And since you're a Sanders supporter you should know more about his plan than you apparently do, judging by this incorrect statement:
The part of Sanders' education plan that applies only to public universities is the plan to make public universities free.
This is what he plans to do with loan forgiveness for students at private universities:
https://www.politico.com/story/2019/06/24/bernie-sanders-2020-student-loan-debt-forgiveness-plan-1296863
Private student loans are more complicated. The legislation gives the secretary of education temporary authority to purchase student loans that are held by banks or other private lenders. The government would pay the unpaid principal, accrued unpaid interest and any late charges owed to a private student lenderand then it would forgive the loan. Borrowers would have to request the loan forgiveness through an application to the Education Department within six months of the bill becoming law.
In both cases, borrowers would not have to pay federal income taxes on the amount of loan forgiveness they receive.
Emphasis added.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
calguy
(5,313 posts)It has zero chance of ever becoming law. It's nothing a pie in the sky policy that sounds to some during a campaign.
Bernie doesn't even know who he'd pay for such a promise.
primary today, I would vote for: Joe Biden
democrattotheend
(11,605 posts)There are too many law schools and not enough jobs. After the financial crisis, there were a LOT of law school grads who couldn't find legal work at all or who were doing document review for $20 per hour while trying to pay off six-figure loans. I don't see why they are any less deserving of forgiveness just because some people in the field make a lot of money.
Even those who did find legal jobs often were making salaries that were way too low to pay off the loans. Most lawyers don't start out making six figures, and some never get there. Law salaries are very bimodal - you usually either start at $180,000 or $50,000-60,000.
primary today, I would vote for: Undecided