Lucy Flores with Bernie Sanders' hand on her shoulder

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

Link to tweet

?s=20

Offered without comment

[SMC22307]

1. Didn't she say Biden sniffed her hair and kissed her on the back of the head?

Isn't that the issue... not a hand or two on shoulders?

[highplainsdem]

11. If you'll look at other threads about this, you'll see that there are a lot of problems with her

account of the incident in her own essay about it, details that undermine her interpretation of what happened.

The more I've looked at it, the more likely I think it is that Biden never sniffed her hair or kissed the back of her head. (And btw, Flores's own story changed on the kiss detail; people were pointing out he'd have had to be kissing the top of her head, not the back, so she changed it to the top of her head this morning.) She made a point in her own essay that she hadn't washed her hair that day. It was the kind of detail she would have been unlikely to bring up unless it really bothered her.

I think it's most likely Biden was whispering something reassuring to her, at the same time he'd briefly put his hands on her shoulders in a reassuring gesture after she'd started taking deep breaths all of a sudden backstage (another detail she mentioned) and apparently had stage fright. I think she missed what he said. I think his closeness to her made her even more self-conscious about her hair and resentful of his being that close.

And then there's the statement from Henry Munoz, who organized the event and checked all the photographic documentation and spoke to nearly all the people who were there. And found nothing to back up Flores's story, even though there were lots of other people backstage when this allegedly happened.

I'm still giving Flores some benefit of the doubt here. I think it's possible her apparent stage fright led Biden to offer a quick reassurance, one lasting only a couple of seconds, one that he'd have no particular reason to remember and that anyone else who saw it would be likely to forget, too, as nothing particularly remarkable, given Biden's habit of trying to reassure and comfort people. I think some of what Flores describes happened, even though I'm sure she misinterpreted it.

But I find her timing with this accusation very suspicious, given that she's a Bernie supporter.

And I think she discredited herself using part of her essay to drag in old, debunked smears against Biden that RWers have been trying to use for years. Smears she should have known were untrue and probably knew were untrue, like the one involving Stephanie and Ash Carter, which Stephanie had to debunk yet again today.

It was a shameful thing for Flores to do.

[LakeArenal]

79. Just copy and paste this on everyone of the of these hit posts.

Perfectly stated.

[Demsrule86]

89. There is a thread that is not flattering to her

about previous acusations and she knows Caitlin the other accuser well. I dont believe a word she says.

[George II]

17. Kissed her on the BACK of her head (The Cut article), then a couple of days later...

... when she realized their relative heights, it became the TOP of her head (this morning's Jake Tapper interview).

Funny how that changes.

[ucrdem]

27. Oh what a tangled web eh?

This is not turning out well for Lucy.

[The Blue Flower]

78. Oh, dear

The devil is truly in the details.

[whathehell]

49. The best way to get someone "off your back" is to turn around

and face the person -- You can then address them however you choose, but the important thing is, you've stopped the touching.

This has happened to me on a number of occasions, and it's never been a problem.

[emulatorloo]

77. Not so sure that description was accurate though.

Yes I believe she was uncomfortable.

Here’s a pic from after the rally, her hand on Biden’s shoulder

Link to tweet

[unblock]

2. Please delete. Would you say a rape victim is not to be believed if she ever had sex?

Judging from the smile and the lack of any complaints, it's quite likely she consented to Bernie's hand being on her shoulder.

That has *nothing* to do with any situation where she did not give consent.

[Demsrule86]

3. No, she works for OR. I think she is lying and a hand on the shoulder is not rape,

And there in lies the problem. Women like Flores using me too for political reasons will destroy it.

[unblock]

5. Her consenting to Bernie's contact proves *nothing* regarding biden.

and it's offensive and inappropriate to even suggest it.

Is she lying? I have no evidence either way, but I categorically reject this photo as having any bearing on it whatsoever. It's only repeating the sick, offensive sexist trope that women who ever consent to something aren't to be believed if they ever object to something similar.

[Demsrule86]

7. Really? So Biden is offensive but Sanders is just fine. She is offensive.

I can't tell you how much I dislike her. I survived sexual assault, spent a couple of weeks in the hospital. And this person is misusing me too which is a good thing for political reasons. She and others like her will destroy me too.

[unblock]

13. If she lied, sure, that's despicable.

I just don't know how you know this, and I certainly don't understand how this photo is supposed to prove anything at all.

Very sorry to hear about your ordeal. You have my endless sympathy for having gone through something that should never happen to anyone.

[pnwmom]

22. Biden came up from behind her, surprising her, gripped her shoulders

and then planted a kiss on her head.

All Bernie did was take a selfie with her, with his hand on her shoulder. He didn't surprise her.

[Demsrule86]

62. You diske Biden and want to believe this, I like Biden and have worked a campaign

With him. I disagree. She is a Bernie supporter who yesteday said he invaded her 'space'. Lame. Others have contradicted her. I don't believe her and think she should be ashamed to use Me Too as political fodder.

As a woman who was assaulted and harassed at the job, I resent women like her who endanger Me Too. My assailant was not prosecuted because I went to a bar that night. I was in the hospital the next week. He was back at back at the bar. When I worked at an insurance company as a young woman a ' producer' put his hands down my pants.,..my supervisor said they would fire me if it became known. I had a child to feed. She complains about nothing -he touched her neck,.yeah sure...she told this tale most likely at the direction of the Sanders campaign. It makes me sick. Women who do this muddy the water for the rest of us. She owes us an apology.

Also, she knew about the violent sexual harrassment in 16 happening in Sanders campaign and did nothing. She Knew while it was happening. She has no credibility..

I like Biden but will vote for any Democrat.This is about me too and the damage her -in my opinion- lies can cause.

[True Blue American]

48. This is why

I hate to see women turn a touch into a full blown complaint.

I am sorry you had to suffer and you have he right to be upset.

[Demsrule86]

73. Me too is being turned into a political tool and will be destroyed,

This hurts women. Flores was there with the Sanders campaign during the sexual harrassment scandal and has admitted knowing about it. She did nothing.

[True Blue American]

76. My thoughts,exactly.i do see

Althhough MSNBC is allowing Flores to come on they are scrolling,” NBC has not verified the allegation.”

They seem to be giving her plenty of air time to see her changing her story. She now claims it was invading her space.

I am angry that she is creating a situation where people who really suffer will not be believed. I have been around long enough to know women can lie, create situations in their own mind.

[pnwmom]

23. +1. n/t

[pnwmom]

20. No, she doesn't work for Our Revolution. She publicly left them almost a year ago.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128745690

[sheshe2]

32. Discredited.

She is listed, per my post in your thread.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1287&pid=45716

[pnwmom]

47. That is outdated. The main Mission page doesn't include her. n/t

[Demsrule86]

65. Really she was listed after that and is a Sanders surrogate. If this leads

Back to the campaign, it will look really bad. And she is still on the boarday of OR.

[Yo_Mama_Been_Loggin]

14. OMG

Are you really comparing this to rape? We've really jumped the shark if that's the case.

[unblock]

16. Offs. I'm not saying they're similar.

[George II]

18. Why delete? She is NOT A RAPE VICTIM!!! That you equate whatever might or might have not....

...happened with "rape" is uncalled for. She has the same smile on her face that she had on-stage with Biden just a few minutes after the alleged "incident".

[unblock]

19. i didn't equate it. does no one understand logic anymore?

try to follow the logic here.

the o.p. implied that she gave consent in one situation, therefore she must be lying about having not given consent in another situation.

all i did was point out that everyone here would recognize that this logic is completely bogus if the subject were rape rather than a hand on the shoulder or a sniff of the hair.

there is *nothing* in my posts that even remotely suggests that i or anyone else says that a hand on the shoulder "equates" to rape.

that is just another illogical distraction that only serves to cover for the fact that the original post was an offensive perpetuation of a sexist trope.

[ucrdem]

24. How do you know she gave consent in the Sanders pic?

And how do you know she didn't give consent in the Biden pic? Oh wait there isn't a Biden pic!

You see the problem now? The evidence that's been brought forward contradicts the tale she is telling.
................

Correction -- it seems there IS a Biden pic, but it shows Lucy's hand on Biden's shoulder!!

[unblock]

38. Again, all I'm saying is that the o.p. sheds zero light on her claim.

Any pic of her with anyone other than Biden is 100% irrelevant.

I don't know if she's lying or not. I just know that the o.p. is a terrible way of addressing that question.

[ucrdem]

40. It's relevant. For one thing it points to the absence of a photo supporting her claim.

And for another it points to its absurdity. The hair sniff would be difficult to witness and the head kiss would be difficult to perform, given their height differences. And neither would be out of place in an event like this. How was he supposed to let her know he was behind her? "Yo Lucy"?

[unblock]

43. The fact that a picture of her exists points to a lack of a pic of a specific moment?

Okayyyyy.

[ucrdem]

45. Yes. The picture that exists contradicts her story. nt

[sheshe2]

26. Rape?

[unblock]

33. Logic?

The logic in the o.p. is odious. We'd never accept it if the accusation were rape. We shouldn't accept it in this situation either.

[sheshe2]

36. This has nothing to do with rape.

The Op may be odious by your perspective.

However you belittle and demean every rape victim by naming this OP a rape.

Stop. Just STOP!

[unblock]

42. You're lying about my post

In no way did I claim it was a rape.

It's obvious that she didn't claim Biden raped her, and it's obvious I didn't say she did, and it's obvious that no one is characterizing her accusations as rape.

If Aristotle could read this thread he'd roll over in his grave. I mentioned a rape accusation merely as an analogous situation in which we'd recognize the *logic* implied in the o.p. as fallacious. That doesn't in any way mean the the o.p. itself has anything to do with rape. That's not the way logic works.

Stop lying about my posts, and stop saying I'm belittling or demeaning rape victims. I'm doing nothing of the sort.

[ucrdem]

44. Your words: "Would you say a rape victim is not to be believed if she ever had sex?"

You brought it up in post #2.

https://www.democraticunderground.com/128745504#post2

[unblock]

54. lol, yes, if you ignore everything i said and reduce my posts to one word, sure.

fun game.

you've used words like "contradict" and "supports" and "absurdity".

are you "linking" biden to contradiction?
are you saying he "supports" her claim?
are you saying he's an absurdity?

can you see how idiotic this game is?

words have meaning in a context, you can't just take a word from my post and reconnect it however you want to for rhetorical purposes. that's a goebbels-like tactic.

oh shit! did i just accuse someone of genocide? who, myself? you? biden? lucy? my own mother?

i can't wait to find out who i've just "linked" to genocide!

[Hortensis]

51. You drew a clear connection between what's appropriate

after rape -- a genuine, vicious crime -- and what's appropriate after an allegation of what may or may not be inappropriate social interaction and may, in fact, be have been kind reassurance.

On behalf of the Republicans, though, congrats on connecting "rape" and "Biden." Implanting viciously dishonest and hurtful associations is exactly what the swiftboaters want.

[unblock]

55. you're doing a much better job of that.

christ, logic is dead.

wait! did i just connect biden with christ?

[Hortensis]

56. If you don't know that making poisonous associations

is a standard political trolling technique, it's way past time you do. First do no harm, right?

[unblock]

58. the o.p. was toxic by perpetuating a sexist logical fallacy and rhetorical argument.

sorry, but think it's more important and there's more at stake in protecting rape victims than there is at stake in protecting the o.p. or any candidate or anyone else.

the first harm was the o.p.

it perpetuated the sexist, rape-apologizing argument that, oh look, she gave consent over here, therefore she couldn't possibly have not given consent over there.

the o.p. started it. i merely called it out.

sorry if you think i'm connecting a candidate to anything. i'm not. he doesn't have anything to do with my point, which is purely about the bad logic and sexism of the o.p. but i'm not going to stop fighting against an argument that rape apologists use just because it happens in a thread about this candidate or that candidate.

[Hortensis]

53. Unblock, you linked rape with Biden in another thread

as well. I didn't look to see if you've posted this other places. In any case, the Repubs and Russia pay people to implant those associations, and you might want to review where you've been in case you were exposed to infection in your cyber travels.

[unblock]

61. i did something but you didn't look to see?

first, i didn't do any linking. my original reply didn't even mention biden.

if there's any linking, blame the o.p., or the various replies to mine.

and there wouldn't be any such linking at all if the o.p. had just deleted the post, as i requested.

[treestar]

60. How do you have proof Bernie asked her first?

[unblock]

63. i don't have proof, it's the o.p. that is making the implication

that oh look, here's a pic where she gave consent in one situation, therefore she must be lying about having not given consent in another situation. that's a horrible rape-apologizing argument and it doesn't belong on d.u.

[treestar]

69. It has nothing to do with rape or sexual assault. Her complaint is about ordinary social touching.

And she is OK with it. She would not put her hand on Joe's shoulder if she was not. She would be complaining about Bernie doing it, too. This is not about sexual choices, it is just about social touching. Yes one can decide they want sex with one man and not another. But it is rather picky to be that way about public social interactions and say one person can put their hand on your shoulder and another can't. Then you are just making things difficult for other people in ordinary social situations.

[unblock]

72. it has to do with consent, and it's not a hard concept.

in my workplace, the only physical contact i ever have with anyone is a handshake, and i wouldn't ever dream of grabbing someone's hand for that. i extend my hand out for a shake, if they grasp it, fine. if they offer a fist for a pound, i pound it, fine. if they say "sorry, i'm a germophobe" or something like that, i pull my hand back and nod at them.

not difficult at all.

some people like shoulder rubs in the workplace. i neither give nor receive that sort of thing in the workplace, but consent there is simple as well. you just ask for a shoulder rub, or you offer one. there's no touching until consent has been given. simple.


but a photo of a co-worker receiving a backrub sheds zero light on whether or not someone else touched that person inappropriately.

just because someone is ok with certain forms of social touching *to which they have given consent* doesn't mean they're ok with other forms of social touching, or the same forms from different people, or when they haven't given consent.

it's dangerous and hurtful to even suggest it, that's why i object so much to the o.p.

[treestar]

75. I recall something in case law about battery (offensive touching)

- the word "battery" only means an "unpermitted touching" in the legal setting. There was some holding about implied consent to ordinary social touching to a certain extent if you go out in public. So maybe test it in a lawsuit if it's that important. The misdemeanor of "offensive touching" requires some element of offense to be proven.

§ 601 Offensive touching; unclassified misdemeanor; class A misdemeanor.

(a) A person is guilty of offensive touching when the person:

(1) Intentionally touches another person either with a member of his or her body or with any instrument, knowing that the person is thereby likely to cause offense or alarm to such other person; or

[Demsrule86]

90. As a victim of sexual assault do not equate what happened to her to what happened to me.

And other women who are raped. A kiss on her head. Are you f' ing kidding. I spent a couple of weeks in the hospital. You should delete. A kiss or a hug if it happened and I have my doubts is not rape.

[unblock]

92. I didn't equate them. Couldn't and wouldn't.

Of course they're not at all the same, and very sorry to hear of your horrible experience.

I was just saying we shouldn't be using an argument in one situation that we would be horrified if that same argument were used in another situation.

I was never saying the two situations were equivalent at all.

[democratisphere]

4. Collusion?

Apparently.

[Demsrule86]

8. Yes and women should be furious for the attempt to misuse me too and play

us for fools.

[jrthin]

10. Agreed.

[oasis]

6. But...but...but.

[brooklynite]

9. Comment provided...

How is this relevant to the Biden issue?

Does being in a photo with Bernie Sanders mean his claim can't be trusted?

Does allowing Bernie Sanders to touch her mean she has to let anyone else?

[R B Garr]

12. Wow!!!

Is Sanders disqualified??

[Honeycombe8]

15. Busted.

If Bernie were on my short list, I'd remove him for this stunt his key supporter pulled. But he's not on my short list, anyway.

I guess some people are thinking, "Hey, it worked to get rid of Franken. Why not now?"

[BlueFlorida]

29. Bernie has never been on my short list

He is not a Democrat. He is just using the Democratic party.

[Honeycombe8]

46. +1. nt

[Little Star]

84. Agree!

[videohead5]

21. Who told her she could put her hands on Biden?

Link to tweet

[ucrdem]

25. Wow.

This goes beyond Frankening to complete fabrication.

[sheshe2]

30. Question?

Is that appropriate or inappropriate touching? Did she sniff his hair or just caress his shoulder.



This all happened in the same night 2014 where she felt so uneasy and wanted to get the hell away from him.

[ucrdem]

31. It looks traumatizing.

I can see Joe is really discombobulated by that inappropriate shoulder clutch.

[sheshe2]

34. You made me LOL!

[ucrdem]

35. It's pretty ridiculous when you get down to it.

But at least we know where we stand vis-a-vis certain candidates. Which is about what we've known all along.

[sheshe2]

39. You are correct.

It is what we have known all along. I can see clearly now.

I still thank you for the laugh that helped brighten my night.

Luv ya!

[betsuni]

37. All of this touching and sniffing and caressing reminds me of something.

I miss The Onion teasing Joe Biden:

[sheshe2]

41. Bwahahahaha

I just spit my wine out.

[handmade34]

80. Oh my!

that is priceless

[Hortensis]

59. She's standing inappropriately close for someone who's

not comfortable with physical contact. Wonder how many breasts Biden's felt brushing his back in his career? She doesn't look any more uncomfortable here, though, than she did with Senator Sanders' hand on her shoulder.

[BlueFlorida]

28. This makes it absolutely positively

a case of a political hit job.

Thanks for posting.

[Mike Nelson]

52. OMG...

… horrific!

[aikoaiko]

57. Imagine. A woman being Ok with being touched by one man but not another.

The nerve of some women.

[betsuni]

64. Imagine. A man saying "It is not good enough for someone to say, 'I'm a woman' Vote for me!"

The nerve of some men.

[aikoaiko]

66. You can like Bernie or not, but I don't

But we can still support a woman’s autonomy to decide who can touch her or decide who creeps her out.

YMMV, perhaps.

[betsuni]

67. Are you a woman?

[treestar]

71. It is not sexual! Why aren't you defending men in that context too?

In public social locations, shouldn't men also have that choice? Why are you making it into something sexual when it is not?

[treestar]

70. When it comes to sex, yes, but it is very high maintenance

to be that way about social interactions like public situations where someone puts their hand on your shoulder and where YOU do the same to others.

Don't go into politics if you are that picky! It's not fair to everyone else.

[WhiskeyGrinder]

68. I don't get it. Are you saying it's weird that a woman might have opinions about who can

and can't touch her?

[Cha]

86. Did she ask Joe Biden his "opinion"?

Link to tweet

[Gothmog]

74. K&R

[Hortensis]

81. At least she didn't have to dodge a hand trying to shut her up,

but then, she wasn't talking.

Link to tweet

Btw, at my age I know a lot of old men, and have lived decades among men of all ages, and I'm pretty sure this is not elder-related boorishness but something else. I can't recall it ever happening to me. Lol to Senator Whats-her-name's swat at him toward the end, forgotten which one that is. Feinstein?

Of course, social communication through touching is age-old, and people of all ages are given to it in various degrees. I really don't want alarms going off in the heads of goodhearted men every time a woman's too close -- "Uh-oh, this one's female, pull it in, keep distance, cross arms where everyone can see, verbal congrats and consolation only."

For me, the intent behind the hand has always been 99% of feeling good or offended. A little more care about touching mere acquaintances by the goodhearted and complete restraint among those who aren't is what's needed.

[R B Garr]

88. Great find! Forgot about seeing this before, but what

a perfect example of overt rudeness also being an invasion of space.

Thank you, Hortensis!



Edit: test looks like Susan Collins

[Hortensis]

93. :) Went ahead and looked at pix of Collins and

other women senators, and turns out Collins' hair was shorter back then. I thought I remembered he was acting out his quintessential-Bernie contempt to a Democrat, and the pix show only 80s-ish Senator Feinstein with brown hair of that length.

Barney Frank long ago now on Sanders’ eternal railing against both parties as if they were the same: “Bernie underestimated the degree that Republicans had moved to the right. I get sick of people saying ‘a curse on both your houses.’ When you point out to them that you agree with them on most things, they’ll say, ‘Yeah, well, I hold my friends up to a higher standard.’ Well, O.K., but remember that we’re your friends.”

My guess is he literally cannot. His self image seems built on what he sees as his great moral superiority over Democrats and others with similar views who don't follow him. Without it, how would he justify his frequent displays of arrogance and contempt, physically notably these toward women. Guessing men taught him to keep his obnoxious acting out strictly verbal a long ago.

[EveHammond13]

82. no shame

[handmade34]

83. this is so overblown

this is not about sexual assault... this is about an invasion of personal space.. happens often, in all kinds of situations (especially in a crowded environment where expectations are high)

I am shocked we are all so fatuous... including Lucy Flores... she (and everyone everywhere) has a right to be uncomfortable when having someone, they don't want to, invade their personal space... that selfsame person has the right and responsibility to speak out and voice their concern to the invader (I don't care if it is the VP or any other person)... obviously Flores didn't feel as if Bernie was invading her personal space and she didn't think she was invading Biden's personal space when she grabbed his shoulder... okay


I am angry if this is what it seems to be... Flores seems to be wanting to voice concern for all the other people Biden has hugged, kissed, touched... this is disingenuous and inappropriate... that is not her place to do and she is being a total asshole right now...

just my opinion

[Cha]

85. KICK!

[sheshe2]

87. Kick!

[LAS14]

91. kick