NY Times: "you have a single-payer system in Italy ..." pretty much took care of the MFA discussion...

[wyldwolf]

The huge question was whether Biden would stumble, fall into one of those oh-whoops-sorry moments. And he didn’t! Made perfectly rational arguments on every point. That’s really all he needed. So he won. The Democratic Party clearly prefers Biden and just needed to be reassured Sunday night that nothing disastrous was going to happen. Don’t know that it’s fair, but the “you have a single-payer system in Italy …” comeback pretty much took care of the Medicare for All argument for the evening...

... The smartest move Biden made in the debate — other than committing to a female running mate — was tying revolution to disruption. At a moment when the world’s been turned upside down, he offered to flip it right side up, not shake it up more. His reassurances send a powerful general-election message — and why he won the debate.

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/03/16/opinion/democratic-debate-winners-losers.html

[jimfields33]

1. I'm just glad he promised to ban fracking. Bernie got him to commit to that.

[bucolic_frolic]

2. All well and good but fracking is going to ban itself through bankruptcy

Fracking is a capital intensive business. The deeper they drill, the more sideways they go, the more it costs. So the low-lying fruit was already picked. It's unprofitable when oil is below $50 a barrel. With the world flooded with oil thanks to foreign actors, and oil trading at $30 or less, fracking is done. Our frackers will go bankrupt since they are overleveraged like the rest of the markets, and I doubt we will ever get back to it. It's not sound financially, nor environmentally. It's kaput.

[TreasonousBastard]

16. One opinion I've seen a lot of is that Russia opening the taps and forcing SA to...

open theirs was specifically to bankrupt our frackers and ultimately get the price up again.

Trump is, of course, too stupid to see that.

[eilen]

3. Fracking is already banned in NY

Maryland, Washington, Vermont and it is a popular movement (banning) in Florida and Georgia.

It is consistent with his climate change/environmental policies.

[Cha]

4. KR!! TY, Wyldwolf

[NurseJackie]

5. "His reassurances send a powerful general-election message -- and why he won the debate."

Joe/Kamala or Biden/Harris 2020!!
Jump on the Biden Bandwagon & abandon the revolution!!

[wellst0nev0ter]

6. Biden used a fatuous, right wing talking point

And you cheer him for it?

[OnDoutside]

9. And Bernie BRILLIANTLY countered it .... Oh wait .... he had nothing. Maybe THAT should be your

focus ?

That M4A response by Biden was in relation to the creation of the National Emergency, where those costs are covered. That's not a "right wing talking point"

[wellst0nev0ter]

14. Sanders did have a response

"bottom line here is in terms of Medicare for all, despite what the vice president is saying, what the experts tell us, is that one of the reasons that we are unprepared and have been unprepared is we don’t have a system. We got thousands of private insurance plans. That is not a system that is prepared to provide healthcare to all people. In a good year without the epidemic, we’re losing up to 60,000 people who die every year because they don’t get to a doctor on time. It’s clearly this crisis is only making a bad situation worse."


It's in the transcript, look it up.

It is absolutely ghoulish to use the crisis in Italy as a lazy strawman talking point.

[OnDoutside]

19. "what experts tell us", is of the "I met a man who told me" variety. What Biden said is correct,that

even Italy, with its public health service is finding it hard to cope with this crisis. What's going to screw America is the time lost since Trump was told about the virus, and did nothing about it. And what Biden said about the future of American Healthcare is correct too. There is no way in hell that Sander's M4A has a chance of getting past Congress, not least because Sanders as a nominee would lose the House and the Senate would remain in Repug hands, and that's not counting him being well beaten by Trump.

M4A would be a great to have, but that is not where America is right now. Warren and Harris jumped on Sanders M4A as soon as he announced it, and it ultimately dragged down their campaigns. It's doing the same for Sanders, but as an ideologue, that's not important to him.

[wellst0nev0ter]

20. Biden said Italy's health care system didn't work

When he knew perfectly well that a epidemic of an unprecedented scale overwhelmed what was a perfectly adequate medical infrastructure in normal years.

If any place constantly maintained enough ICU beds to cope with a covid outbreak, Biden and his ilk would accuse that country for being wasteful and inefficient.

That is a shameless invidious lie that makes me question Biden as a decent man, let alone a presidential candidate.

[Blue_true]

22. Biden didn't say that Italy's healthcare system didn't work.

Sanders made the claim that if we already had MFA, we would be well prepared to handle the coronavirus, that caused Biden to point out that Italy has the very thing Sanders claims would turn the tables on the virus and Italy is having to decide who lives and who dies.

Biden made the exact correct point. A pandemic like the coronavirus must be handled via a system that abuts the regular healthcare system, but that can handle the virus surge without overloading of the regular healthcare system

[wellst0nev0ter]

24. This is Biden's exact quote:

"With all due respect to Medicare for All, you have a single-payer system in Italy. It doesn't work there."

Words mean things. Is making good-faith arguments beyond your capacity?

[Blue_true]

28. Biden was using it doesn't work to respond to the claim that Sanders

made that MFA would turn the tables. Biden pointed out that Italy has what Sanders claimed would work and it is not working., in fact, the system in Italy and Spain are near collapse because their Single Payer systems have been forced into dealing with a crisis that is outside their regular scope.

[wellst0nev0ter]

34. Under Obamacare

people were forced to pay thousands of dollars for the test AND their quarantine during the epidemic. How much would this crisis have been averted if people were not afraid of hospital bills?


In Italy, there are a whole lot more testing per capita BECAUSE of its socialized health care system. But because of the nature of the epidemic, the number of patients overwhelmed a peacetime health infrastructure.

Hopefully the drawbacks from our own failures won't trigger a much bigger crisis, but I'm not an optimist.

[Blue_true]

36. Biden proposed free testing and medical care, specifically aimed at the

Coronavirus. He is not proposing blowing up the entire healthcare system WHILE trying to fight coronavirus. Biden's plan is more sensible.

[wellst0nev0ter]

38. So in order to save the current system

Biden is introducing single payer, however temporary it is.

Cool.

[Blue_true]

39. Not to save the system, to save lives.

The system needs big reform. I believe the virus will make a robust Public Option and full expansion of Medicaid realities, because people that have good insurance will finally see that people that can't afford good insurance can make them sick.

[wellst0nev0ter]

40. They're not rolling out the public option to fight the disease

They're rolling out free healthcare.

[Blue_true]

42. Did you read what I wrote? The emergency measures save lives.

Longterm reform of the system comes after the virus is taken care of. Sanders simply doesn't have a better plan, regardless of how much he talks something up.

[emmaverybo]

31. TY! Cleared that up.

[treestar]

7. Bernie tried to relate the crisis to the system

And the system is not the issue - it's a crisis, not an ordinary day of health care.

[Bernardo de La Paz]

8. Single-payer nothing to do with it. SKorea& China have single payer & they've got a lid on Covid-19

South Korea has a universal healthcare system.[236] It has the world's second best healthcare system.[237]

Any kind of universal health care, whether single payer or universal insurance, would help a lot because people wouldn't avoid treatment or diagnosis.

[turbinetree]

10. K&R +1

You nailed it.............................

[Bernardo de La Paz]

11. Two things work (US has neither): 1) Early strenuous reaction and 2) Great healthcare system.

USA has great healthcare but a lousy healthcare system because only the upper economic classes can afford that healthcare.

China was late reacting after first killing whistleblower Doctor Li (Li Wenliang, remember his name). When they finally reacted they had to weld apartment doors shut.

South Korea reacted quickly and did not have to resort total totalitarian responses.

[turbinetree]

12. Yepper spot on....................

This mish mash of health care in this country and based on economic status is just amazing.............................I am on a very simple plan .....Medicare....................and I love it based on my costs, granted it is based on my Social Security .................but you know what it is simple and efficient........................and as for China.....................they also have a psychopath regime running the country................and they go around killing whistle blower..........my wife went to 08 Olympics, and she made comments when she got back, and I said that it was creepy, I said this is what you have when are a basically a police and military state, and then put some facade on it ..............

[SKKY]

13. South Korea, yea mostly. Who knows with China. But, your point is correct...

...single-payer had nothing to do with it.

[wellst0nev0ter]

15. Biden is basically offering M4A when it comes to the coronavirus

So we now pick and choose when we have single payer or not?

[iwannaknow]

18. Yes, unfortunately!

[Blue_true]

23. Biden is talking about an emergency declaration, that gets past Congress,

but has a shelf life. The declaration could be extended, but once the crisis has been knocked down, the declaration ends. Sanders was referring to a situation that gets Congress involved and likely would result in a lot of people dying, without Sanders efficiently dealing with the virus.

[wellst0nev0ter]

25. Like I said, Medicare For All For Those Who Wants Coronavirus

If such a system was already instituted, this would not be an issue. And you're also assuming that the goop congress would fall in line with the temporary bandaid solution too.

[Blue_true]

29. Reality keeps flying past you.

Italy and Spain have such systems and they are near collapsing because they are tasked with dealing with a crisis that is outside their scope. South Korea succeeded so far because it set up a parallel system for dealing with the virus and didn't send the effort into it's Single Payer system. Biden is correct, the virus would cause an MFA system to collapse if that system had to deal with the virus and normal healthcare needs.

Biden's approach would be like what South Korea set up, a parallel system that focuses only on the coronavirus, that system would utilize some parts of the healthcare system, but would be capable of standing alone if needed, and that could happen, what would happen say if we has a recurrence of H1N1 parallel to COVID-19? Parallel efforts that focuses on both while the regular healthcare system conducts it's regular business is the only way to deal with both and not collapse the healthcare system.

[wellst0nev0ter]

32. So Single Payer Is Not To Blame

Biden slammed M4A using the crisis in Italy. It was sick. It was wrong. It makes me trust him less.

Yes, set up special protocols for dealing with an epidemic, but don't use the crisis to slam other countries' health care system, especially if the charge is a complete lie.

[Blue_true]

33. Biden simply pointed out that Single Payer didn't work the

wonders Sanders claimed MFA would work vis a vis the coronavirus. It is simple as that. So far the only decently successful effort to fight coronavirus is set up the way Biden proposes.

[wellst0nev0ter]

35. How many tests has Italy done?

Compare that to the U.S.

It's not even close.

The problem was simply too many patients in critical condition.

Enough with the specious arguments.

[Blue_true]

37. My comparison was Italy to South Korea.

South Korea has a massive testing, isolation and treatment effort that is running parallel to it's Single Payer System, roughly what Biden is proposing, except our system wouldn't be Single Payer.

The goal of Biden is to not overwhelm the regular medical system, Sanders seems interested in talking about one of his stump hot buttons, but it was clear to any that paid attention, he has not thought past his stump speech list of changes, the fact that he kept using stump speech items to answer questions that had no relations to the stump issue shows clearly that he has no plan, unlike Biden.

[wellst0nev0ter]

41. So single payer to compensate for our failed system

Whatever works, right?

[Blue_true]

43. I have no idea what point you are trying to make.

Back to Biden's point, if the response to the virus isn't mostly decoupled from the regular healthcare system, NO system works, that seems to be what he was trying to get Senator Sanders to understand. South Korea had success because that country put in place a system that decoupled the response to the virus from the standard healthcare system, Italy and Spain failed to do that.

[iwannaknow]

17. There are other factors at play in Italy

such as an older population and more smokers. I find it hard to believe that M4A wouldn't make this situation better for all of us, especially when we've got so many people who can't afford to go to the doctor when they get sick, can't afford to stay home, and can't be paid for a medical leave of absense. These people are more likely to spread it to the rest of us!!!

Furthermore, for many people who are un-insured or under-insured, there is a continuing medical crisis, a fact which did not get adequately addressed in last night's debate. The implication is that we should respond to the corona crisis only when in fact there is a continuing crisis in the ability to get adequate medical care. Where is the help for those people? Those who have been hurting and continue to hurt? If I've got cancer and can't get properly treated, it is a dire crisis, even moreso than C19.

[underpants]

26. We're about to hear capitalism roar

Roar that it can't handle the strain.

No system can handle it.

[pampango]

21. The fact that M43A couldn't deal with the outbreak of a pandemic is hardly proof of anythihg.

I am sure that Donald and the 'anti-socialist' folks will use this as 'proof' that not relying on private medical insurance can never really work. The right can salvage something from Trump's bungling of the coronavirus.

[Politicub]

27. I hated when he said that. It made me cringe.

We don’t know how bad it’s going to get. None of the people in Italy will face medical bankruptcy if they are treated for the virus.

I’m on board with Biden’s public option approach, but I didn’t appreciate his characterization of Italy’s health system at all.

[Blue_true]

30. Biden's point was that Italy's system alone is inadequate to deal with the virus

and conduct it's regular business. Sanders had made the claim that MFA could do both. If you look at what South Korea did, it didn't dump everything into it's healthcare system the way Italy, Spain and Britain tried to do, it ran a parallel effort that focused only on the coronavirus, identifying people and then treating the ones that needed hospitalization - that greatly reduced the number of people showing up at hospitals, allowing hospitals to function much as they normally do.