General Discussion

ehrnst

(32,640 posts)

151. Difference between Analogy and Example....

Wed Sep 12, 2012, 09:37 AM

Sep 2012

Riots and murder are at the far spectrum of angry reaction. Nor did I ever "excuse" rioting or killing. To understand something,a nd even say it was predictable is not the same as approving of it.

What is a "slight" to you may have far greater significance to someone else in a situation and history is much different.

I don't excuse the reaction that Southern whites had to segregation - but it was predictable, and precautions were taken. We would be aghast and shocked if that same response happened in 2012, because we are in a very different point in our culture. We have a couple hundred years of a secular, diverse society (mosque bombings, clinic bombings, attacks on Sikhs notwithstanding)

To say that the rioters - at this place, in this point in their history - should be expected to react as Americans would is naive. This is NOT excusing them - but I will also NOT excuse the deliberate attempt to incite this violence by the filmmakers for creating hate speech and propaganda - any more than I would excuse someone for yelling "shooter!!" in a crowded theatre.

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Not liking an offensive movie is not an excuse to riot and kill people. [View all] Odin2005 Sep 2012 OP

No, but I think the guy who made this is also responsible for the rioting and deaths. cali Sep 2012 #1

Being offended by a movie is no excuse. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #7

True! JDPriestly Sep 2012 #43

See post #138; greiner3 Sep 2012 #143

I can understand demonstrating against a movie -- but killing someone and getting completely JDPriestly Sep 2012 #165

Define "civilised" Spider Jerusalem Sep 2012 #45

I have no use for cultural relativism, sorry. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #48

That's a nice idea, but in principle, it doesn't work that way Spider Jerusalem Sep 2012 #57

The "blasphemy" horseshit almost got a Pakistani girl with Down's Syndrome lynched. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #60

Sure, and it got one of my ancestors burned at the stake in the reign of Bloody Mary Tudor Spider Jerusalem Sep 2012 #67

+1000 (nt) ehrnst Sep 2012 #107

We'll just have to bomb them to the stone age until they modernize! Scootaloo Sep 2012 #124

So, a US female politician would bear responsibility for getting raped over there joeglow3 Sep 2012 #125

You notice, noody is blaming the victim here, right? Scootaloo Sep 2012 #132

Nobody said that treestar Sep 2012 #199

I agree. However, I was essentially called a supporter of rape for your sentiment just yesterday joeglow3 Sep 2012 #245

so MrDiaz Sep 2012 #223

Thank you, agree 100% get the red out Sep 2012 #118

Well if that's the case maybe we should just take their fucking Internet away... snooper2 Sep 2012 #108

How so? tama Sep 2012 #78

Do those same 'human rights' apply to the estimated 500,000 Iraqi children who coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #135

Those sactions were wrong. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #227

To deliberately incite violence using cultural hotpoints is wrong. ehrnst Sep 2012 #136

There's also the fact that they have just been through intense violence loyalsister Sep 2012 #174

i think MrDiaz Sep 2012 #229

Number one priority is the safety of those associated with the embassy BanzaiBonnie Sep 2012 #252

Funny how you distort my post loyalsister Sep 2012 #268

nobody MrDiaz Sep 2012 #222

Well said. n/t Summer Hathaway Sep 2012 #271

If people rioted after MIB 3 in Illinois, then you'd have a point. ehrnst Sep 2012 #127

+1 nt. polly7 Sep 2012 #176

if i went MrDiaz Sep 2012 #272

How about "Jud Süss" - that sort of got people offended enough to kill ehrnst Sep 2012 #162

Religious fundamentalists of three religions caused this, Islamic, Christian and Jewish Cleita Sep 2012 #225

No. The fucknuts who are rioting and killing over a stupid little half-assed film Codeine Sep 2012 #8

Yup, the "what what you say" crap just plays into RW talking points... Odin2005 Sep 2012 #26

Not really. The RW should be held accountable for their hate speech too. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #86

+1 get the red out Sep 2012 #120

So you are against laws that say you can't yell "FIRE!" in a crowded theater? Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #69

That's a really stupid analogy. JVS Sep 2012 #115

If you walk into a Jewish funeral dressed as a Nazi and yelling Heil Hitler - ehrnst Sep 2012 #119

How about finding an actual example leftynyc Sep 2012 #147

Difference between Analogy and Example.... ehrnst Sep 2012 #151

The fucknuts that made this film wanted this to happen - intended for violence to happen. ehrnst Sep 2012 #116

One doubts the synagogue attendees Codeine Sep 2012 #175

Mostly agree dbackjon Sep 2012 #149

No it's not. It's a fucking MOVIE. That made fun of some dead dude. (nt) Nye Bevan Sep 2012 #171

But whoever made the film knew that it could happen treestar Sep 2012 #200

They bear the responsibility for their own Codeine Sep 2012 #212

Nope. drm604 Sep 2012 #13

+ Infinity! Odin2005 Sep 2012 #31

I don't know... a geek named Bob Sep 2012 #63

I strongly disagree. Lizzie Poppet Sep 2012 #128

"insane, superstitious vermin" - why am I flashing back to 1930s Germany? I almost coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #137

Sure: Lizzie Poppet Sep 2012 #168

PS: Lizzie Poppet Sep 2012 #170

PPS: In the twenties and the thirties in Germany, the Nazis routinely referred to the Jews as coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #179

So you're saying that all of the Jews in 1920's and 1930's Germany... eqfan592 Sep 2012 #187

You know who compared Jews to murderers? Dr. Strange Sep 2012 #202

PPPS: Lizzie Poppet Sep 2012 #195

PPPPS: Dehumanizing people by calling them 'vermin' is but one step on the road to exterminating coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #215

Ah, not content to call me a Nazi, you do a little doubling down of you own... Lizzie Poppet Sep 2012 #246

Little history lesson for you: during the Tet offensive of January 1968, forces coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #253

You should quit while you're behind. Lizzie Poppet Sep 2012 #254

You keep erecting straw men out of my words, and then knocking them down. I nowhere coalition_unwilling Sep 2012 #257

Oh God, the irony! Lizzie Poppet Sep 2012 #260

I tend to think the people responsible are responsible 4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #139

This is so wrong.... WeRQ4U Sep 2012 #155

I did - the movie was fucked up, but that's no excuse for murder. n/t backscatter712 Sep 2012 #194

I think he's responsible Dorian Gray Sep 2012 #274

And commenting about a provocative, hateful film is not giving an excuse..it's making an observation nanabugg Sep 2012 #2

Much of the world does not understand freedom of speech like we do. liberal N proud Sep 2012 #3

wrong analogy graham4anything Sep 2012 #4

Human rights, including freedom of speech, are universal. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #9

makes me wonder if a repubteapartylibertarian sympathizer set this up graham4anything Sep 2012 #15

also, are you saying in the name of human rights we should bomb them in revenge? graham4anything Sep 2012 #17

Where the fuck did I say I wanted to bomb them in revenge? Odin2005 Sep 2012 #29

apologies, you didn't I was attempting a corrolation aand i self edited the above graham4anything Sep 2012 #110

Apology accepted. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #231

You fucking know better than that. Codeine Sep 2012 #71

What a nasty thing to say to another DUer Marrah_G Sep 2012 #82

but I didn't say it as a personal, I said it as a corrolation (a leads to b is c) graham4anything Sep 2012 #89

You absolutely did make it personal to that poster. Marrah_G Sep 2012 #97

no problem don't sweat the small stuff graham4anything Sep 2012 #101

That's a non-apology apology Marrah_G Sep 2012 #105

I edited the post, to delete it would make the five other posts weird graham4anything Sep 2012 #117

I am glad you editted it Marrah_G Sep 2012 #123

Not in Libya for the last few decades jberryhill Sep 2012 #205

Is there anyone, ANYONE on DU who is saying otherwise? That doesn't mean those stoking the violence hlthe2b Sep 2012 #5

Remember the rioting over the offensive Mohammed cartoons? Odin2005 Sep 2012 #11

The Middle East is not the United States. We might like to asert our views and philosophy on them... hlthe2b Sep 2012 #16

That is a dangerous slope you are rolling on. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #24

Can you explain to me... Scootaloo Sep 2012 #37

When did I say public employees have no right to free speech? Odin2005 Sep 2012 #44

It's a question about DU in general, sorry if there's a misunderstanding. Scootaloo Sep 2012 #93

It's a law restricting our GOVERNMENT. The entire GOVERNMENT. cleanhippie Sep 2012 #185

I agree, the film is tasteless, but Biafran Sep 2012 #51

Nobody's said it's justified. Ever. Scootaloo Sep 2012 #94

What do you mean by "demand public employees have absolutely no right whatsoever to free speech"? cleanhippie Sep 2012 #184

Hate speech that incites violence NOT protected. Try calling for harming the President, if you doubt hlthe2b Sep 2012 #40

Make a similar film attacking Christianity and there would not be riots. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #46

We have a Republican official calling for acid attacks on female DNC Senators today... hlthe2b Sep 2012 #50

This is different. Biafran Sep 2012 #56

Question Violet_Crumble Sep 2012 #83

The worst reaction I remember The Last Temptation of Christ getting deutsey Sep 2012 #62

Please tell that to Dr. Tiller's family mountain grammy Sep 2012 #146

Also our OWN protests against a film like this say, "NOT IN OUR NAME" Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #95

"Universal rights" tama Sep 2012 #84

Although I wouldn't label it as either necessarily religious nor dangerous, I do agree that LanternWaste Sep 2012 #159

Actually it is not a dangerous slope! It's understanding nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #173

I stopped reading when you mentioned "Black Athena". Odin2005 Sep 2012 #240

Your prerrogative to ignore how the rest of the world lives nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #249

Frteeedom of speech is a universal human right AS WEE SEE IT. It is not international law. at all. robinlynne Sep 2012 #235

People do not have a right not to be offended in a free society thankyou.ive been saying this 4ever leftyohiolib Sep 2012 #21

we often cite Darwin's Law, yes?. LanternWaste Sep 2012 #152

We all have a right not to be murdered treestar Sep 2012 #203

Exactly. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #96

Isn't censoring ourselves in response to irrational violence 4th law of robotics Sep 2012 #141

Held to account for what? bighart Sep 2012 #156

Are you fluent in English? "Held to account" does not refer only to legal ramifications... hlthe2b Sep 2012 #161

In what way would you "hold them to account" for practicing bighart Sep 2012 #163

Denunciation is the first step. Not defend under the guise of a 'free speech' argument... hlthe2b Sep 2012 #164

I have not seen the film in question so I have no point of reference for judgement on it. bighart Sep 2012 #166

It is possible to both denouce the message AND support free speech, at the same time. cleanhippie Sep 2012 #186

Unless you mean to acuse those who are denouncing this ugly, bigoted, inciting filmaker of NOT hlthe2b Sep 2012 #193

Will you apply the same standard to Salman Rushdie? Or the Danish cartoonist? cleanhippie Sep 2012 #197

Have you even bothered to see the promotional video? Give me a break. Hate DOES incite. hlthe2b Sep 2012 #206

It didn't incite me. cleanhippie Sep 2012 #210

I would hope not. But, I can not deal with your defending hate speech and bigotry hlthe2b Sep 2012 #219

"I can not deal with your defending hate speech and bigotry, so I am done." You dropped this... cleanhippie Sep 2012 #220

And you have taken every opportunity afforded by a so-called "free speech" argument to hlthe2b Sep 2012 #224

When your argument fails, resort to personal attacks. cleanhippie Sep 2012 #228

In the same way that tea partiers will see these riots CJCRANE Sep 2012 #6

So you missed the past 10 years of Middle East occupation? Earth_First Sep 2012 #10

So you are saying Libyans and Egyptians are too stupid to see the difference... Odin2005 Sep 2012 #12

this was a few people graham4anything Sep 2012 #18

Actually it was one guy, who fired a rocket Scootaloo Sep 2012 #32

Do you seriously think that the Muslims who rioted saw the film? JDPriestly Sep 2012 #52

"No excuse at all" Scootaloo Sep 2012 #76

Nearly everyone on DU agrees that there is no excuse for murder. Iraq was, for example, JDPriestly Sep 2012 #167

Well in Egypt choice sections of it were on major news channels nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #217

Just like we're too stupid to see the difference ... JustABozoOnThisBus Sep 2012 #23

This might help to explain this to you nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #211

this was not libya govt, but people reacting. so we can no more place the blame on libya govt than seabeyond Sep 2012 #14

And it is likely that this is a phoney incident ginned up by some intelligence agency... rfranklin Sep 2012 #20

i never go into making it something i do not know.... but, yes. there are people that backed this seabeyond Sep 2012 #33

Its like the morons in the repubteapartylibertarians taking guns to town hall graham4anything Sep 2012 #19

right. intentionally lighting a powder keg isn't right either. this is why piratefish08 Sep 2012 #22

That statement is true as seen from within our culture HereSince1628 Sep 2012 #25

Cultural relativism can go fuck itself. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #27

This. Brickbat Sep 2012 #28

LOL, HereSince1628 Sep 2012 #70

YES IT CAN! get the red out Sep 2012 #121

Except that it does not and people work witihn the values nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #214

Either human rights are universal or else slavery and female genital mutilation is OK. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #234

Logic? tama Sep 2012 #247

Yup, more extensive response nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #251

That declaration would look very different if drafted by the Cherokee nation! For example nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #250

"Cultural relativism" or "localism" tama Sep 2012 #256

Exactly, but the teaching in American schools that cultural relativism is bunk nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #258

I've heard tama Sep 2012 #259

All empires before they die do that nadinbrzezinski Sep 2012 #262

Why did Americans think Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? Scootaloo Sep 2012 #30

Propanganda. Richard Engel just reported that people in the Middle East were told that... polichick Sep 2012 #34

And the truth is that the film will be ignored by most. It isn't the sort of thing that would JDPriestly Sep 2012 #58

You have to ask who was behind the big lie that it was a major film... polichick Sep 2012 #61

And then there were the revelations in the New York Times about the memos prior to 9/11. JDPriestly Sep 2012 #169

one can NOT yell fire in a theatre or incite a riot graham4anything Sep 2012 #35

In a reasonable society this would not incite a riot. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #53

The film maker allegedly wanted this outcome graham4anything Sep 2012 #65

Doesn't matter what outcome he wanted Marrah_G Sep 2012 #75

so you agree we apologize and don't start bombing them, right? graham4anything Sep 2012 #87

No we do not apologize and no we don't bomb them Marrah_G Sep 2012 #98

and apology like a hug is good graham4anything Sep 2012 #100

In this case our country has not done anything to apologize for Marrah_G Sep 2012 #112

an apology never hurt anyone and its free graham4anything Sep 2012 #126

Are you saying the USA is a reasonable society? malokvale77 Sep 2012 #109

Have you seen the movie? JDPriestly Sep 2012 #64

The film maker did not murder anyone Marrah_G Sep 2012 #74

Of course you can "yell fire" in a theatre. NYC Liberal Sep 2012 #160

I killed four people myself after I saw Leonard Part 6. Ian David Sep 2012 #36

I LOL'd. Brickbat Sep 2012 #41

This is more an issue of Fox-like manipulation of the masses... MANative Sep 2012 #38

Now there will be a whole lot of people who are going to see it to figure out what this is about. dkf Sep 2012 #88

no, it's not. But there is such a thing as recognizing the predictable consequences of one's actions Douglas Carpenter Sep 2012 #39

+1000 nt bunnies Sep 2012 #47

We all hear speech we don't like Marrah_G Sep 2012 #79

Apparently there was a rumor spread that the movie sufrommich Sep 2012 #42

What if it isn't about the movie? eridani Sep 2012 #49

Yep - this didn't happen in a vacuum. Much like the Rodney King riots were not about Rodney ehrnst Sep 2012 #103

When you toss a can of gasoline into a bed of hot coals ehrnst Sep 2012 #54

Should americans give up their right to free speech? Marrah_G Sep 2012 #81

Yelling fire in a crowded theatre will get you in trouble ehrnst Sep 2012 #90

So which part of your freedom of speech are you willing to give up? Marrah_G Sep 2012 #92

hateful speech IS bad. robinlynne Sep 2012 #237

It is bad- it is not illegal Marrah_G Sep 2012 #248

I don't know that you would have a fire..pretty much need an open flame for gasoline to ignite snooper2 Sep 2012 #114

It's not about religion or the movie. It's about INCITING A RIOT on purpose. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #55

Those who purposely incited should have been arrested after the last... polichick Sep 2012 #66

YES. It's been a known deterrant for the misuse of freedom of speech. Tigress DEM Sep 2012 #91

Because... Javaman Sep 2012 #59

I tend not to take much stock in the reasons that the MSM gives for these things KurtNYC Sep 2012 #68

Obviously it is, because that's what happens. tama Sep 2012 #72

Terry Jones Dove World Outreach Center, Gainesville FL marions ghost Sep 2012 #73

Yes, but it was a completely predictable outcome. Iggo Sep 2012 #77

the people who riot & caused death BigD_95 Sep 2012 #80

No one is making excuses ehrnst Sep 2012 #102

I completely agree. bklyncowgirl Sep 2012 #85

As I understand it they, the mob, was lied to by their jp11 Sep 2012 #99

because that is what mobs do. Also, who are "these folks". Is it the entire populous? I doubt it, still_one Sep 2012 #104

The audacity of some people to... 99Forever Sep 2012 #106

What is their worldview? Alduin Sep 2012 #183

As if... 99Forever Sep 2012 #192

I can agree with you but riverbendviewgal Sep 2012 #111

Yes get the red out Sep 2012 #129

Amazing what a short memory we have citizen blues Sep 2012 #113

While I agree with what you say... Javaman Sep 2012 #122

employs terrorist by proxy to do their dirty work as a means to an end Corgigal Sep 2012 #243

You think they care if you think there's an excuse? Anthony McCarthy Sep 2012 #130

Just catching up with all this between meetings this morning. woodsprite Sep 2012 #131

Some Neo-Con, I would guess. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #238

Not an excuse Proud Liberal Dem Sep 2012 #133

This is about power relationships -- not hurt feelings starroute Sep 2012 #134

Your OP is so offensive; greiner3 Sep 2012 #138

What, pray tell, is so offensive about it? LAGC Sep 2012 #145

How is the OP offensive? Alduin Sep 2012 #181

So you think the Danish cartoonist who made those Mohammed cartoons... Odin2005 Sep 2012 #236

Believe it or not pecwae Sep 2012 #273

My whole point has been the creator needs to answer for it instead of hide... Blue_Tires Sep 2012 #140

Is there an excuse for deliberately provoking dangerous fanatics? 6000eliot Sep 2012 #142

It is no excuse, however when you KNOW THIS WILL HAPPEN WHY DO IT? NotThisTime Sep 2012 #144

I don't know what motivates them Enrique Sep 2012 #148

my understanding is barbtries Sep 2012 #150

Yeah, these Islamist fanatics weren't even a major part of the Arab Spring. LAGC Sep 2012 #158

of course. barbtries Sep 2012 #172

Oh it won't -- I have faith in Obama to offer a measured response. LAGC Sep 2012 #178

not "could" be barbtries Sep 2012 #198

WTF?!?!? citizen blues Sep 2012 #213

Wow, whoa, easy there tiger!! LAGC Sep 2012 #216

Because maybe they don't have the same access to information that we do.(nt) ehrnst Sep 2012 #153

Because that's what they were told jberryhill Sep 2012 #154

Interesting point. Odin2005 Sep 2012 #239

In the long run, yes jberryhill Sep 2012 #241

Maybe they saw Michelle Bachmann on one of her rants about Muslim conspiracies? ehrnst Sep 2012 #157

Uh, maybe because the films says certain kinds do violence & then certain kinds do violence . . . ? patrice Sep 2012 #177

K&R Alduin Sep 2012 #180

agreed. religious crazies who murder people rollin74 Sep 2012 #182

. . . on cue, perhaps. nt patrice Sep 2012 #189

Why do folks in the USA think Iraq had anything to do with 9/11? nt raccoon Sep 2012 #188

There are bloody hands on BOTH SIDES. Not just one. (nt) ehrnst Sep 2012 #190

Make that ALL sides: recall why bin Laden went to Afghanistan & why, for decades, the U.S. patrice Sep 2012 #207

True - I'm addressing the filmmakers and the rioters in this thread ehrnst Sep 2012 #218

I'm suggesting that the filmmakers & the rioters could be in collusion. How was the film financed? patrice Sep 2012 #221

I'm thinking that Terry Jones wouldn't involve himself with any Muslims ehrnst Sep 2012 #226

Maybe not he, but who would benefit from making Muslims or Islam look bad? patrice Sep 2012 #232

i.e. there're more than 2 sides & at least some of those sides change back-and-forth with others. nt patrice Sep 2012 #208

To answer your question: Because they see no difference between the US Government and Israel 1-Old-Man Sep 2012 #191

No one said it is treestar Sep 2012 #196

So if I draw satirical cartoons bighart Sep 2012 #209

Don't forget... SoapBox Sep 2012 #201

Because state-sponsored media is all they know jberryhill Sep 2012 #204

The film had nothing to do with it. former9thward Sep 2012 #230

why? for thousands of reasons, historical and actual. robinlynne Sep 2012 #233

libya was not a reaction to the movie, it was a deliberate strike, not reactionary. Egypt was. larkrake Sep 2012 #242

There is an obvious clear difference between us the them. L0oniX Sep 2012 #244

Inciting violence in such a volatile part of the world felix_numinous Sep 2012 #255

Because IT MADE MY INVISIBLE FRIEND IN THE SKY MAD! Warren DeMontague Sep 2012 #261

Why? SoCalDem Sep 2012 #263

True, and calling another culture's prophet a child molester quaker bill Sep 2012 #264

He is a Christian, and the trailor starts with a woman opening her legs. robinlynne Sep 2012 #265

who is saying it is? fascisthunter Sep 2012 #266

If folks can't deal with freedom of speech or believe they have the right not to be offended TheKentuckian Sep 2012 #267

What if your team wins a Championship? progressoid Sep 2012 #269

We roundly condemn them, while wearing comfortable shoes. U4ikLefty Sep 2012 #270