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Fortinbras Armstrong

(4,473 posts)
53. One of the greatest Christian writers, Augustine of Hippo (354-430), wrote two books about lying
Sun Aug 23, 2020, 07:31 AM
Aug 2020
De Mendacio (About Lying) and Contra Mendacium (Against Lying). In the first, Augustine says that a lie is not so much a distortion of the meaning of the words as it is a lack of fidelity to another person.

When Augustine defined of lying as being untrue to others, he disagreed with most other moralists, who allow equivocation, prevarication, or evasion if at least some meaning of the words can be considered true. But Augustine believed that in the most basic sense, what one says is irrelevant in itself, apart from the intention to deceive. As he points out, one can lie by speaking the truth, or with an expression, or even by silence. Suppose you are asked if you performed some good and heroic act, and you know that silence would be taken as a modest reluctance to claim what is true -- even if it is not. Your silence will deceive the questioner. You intended to deceive, and that intention is Augustine's definition of a lie.

Equivocators would not consider silence a lie, since silence is indeterminate. It is, of itself, equivocal. You can take from it what you want. The person keeping silence, equivocators would claim, is not responsible for another's misinterpretation of the silence, any more than a speaker is responsible for the listener's selection of one from multiple interpretations of the words. For Augustine, such an argument is beside the point. If you think that silence or equivocal words would deceive, you are lying. Even if you fail to deceive, since you intend to lie, you are lying. If you make a true statement, knowing it will not be believed, and wanting it to be disbelieved, the statement may be true but you are false.

Augustine's main point is that we should make an effort to live in the truth.

Augustine's Contra Mendacium considers the specific case about whether it is morally acceptable to lie in furtherance of a good cause. He said that it was not, for three reasons. First, since God is truth itself, lying dishonors both God and the liar. Second, lying is itself a sin, and as the Apostle Paul says, "Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?" (Romans 6:1-3) Third, when the person lied to discovers the lie, he or she will doubt the goodness of the cause.

The basic question is, "do the ends justify the means". According to most ethicists, it does not. Unfortunately, many people, not just many Christians, believe that it does.

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K&R! SheltieLover Aug 2020 #1
There are a lot of things classified as an 'abomination' in the bible, yet lying gets a pass? TheBlackAdder Aug 2020 #44
The zealots should nail him for all of Proverbs 6. JudyM Aug 2020 #46
If they'd taken God BACK OUT of the Pledge (as the word was originally NOT in it) mr_lebowski Aug 2020 #2
+1. I have never said that part since they changed the pledge when I was a kid. n/t rzemanfl Aug 2020 #6
Neither have I. It ruined the whole pledge... Glorfindel Aug 2020 #7
I was also 9 when "God" was added to the pledge. pazzyanne Aug 2020 #14
Hello friend homegirl Aug 2020 #12
Here it is on license plates too. I am careful to get the ones that don't say that. rzemanfl Aug 2020 #17
Probably impossible Nasruddin Aug 2020 #29
Nor I. marybourg Aug 2020 #42
I've had to straighten a few people out stopdiggin Aug 2020 #8
I replace it with dog when reciting it. LiberalFighter Aug 2020 #9
Underdog! rwiliff Aug 2020 #41
Thank you, thank you, thank you! Ligyron Aug 2020 #49
Adding "under god" was a "give - the - babies - their - bottle" moment. Progressive Jones Aug 2020 #51
Lying is his first language, English is his second. Marcuse Aug 2020 #3
Love it...thanks for this post. nt iluvtennis Aug 2020 #5
IDK how this was expanded so. Ligyron Aug 2020 #50
"The abomination that causes desolation" The Blue Flower Aug 2020 #4
What efforts are being made to communicate this to the Evangelicals RVN VET71 Aug 2020 #10
It should be exposed from pulpits, but few if any Evangelicals will bad mouth their "savior" KS Toronado Aug 2020 #13
So much for God and Jesus! RVN VET71 Aug 2020 #18
It Is A Legacy Of McCarthyism n/t DallasNE Aug 2020 #15
Sigh. Evangelicals would likely consider the correction to be the lie. Beartracks Aug 2020 #37
tRUMP IS The Abominable Orangeman... (with apologies to the origninal Orangmen who are abqtommy Aug 2020 #11
and Syracuse University of which Biden is an Orangeman alum. yankeepants Aug 2020 #22
Oh well, back to the drawing board... abqtommy Aug 2020 #24
Shouldn't this be pulled? It's another lying tweet. The Wielding Truth Aug 2020 #16
Since he's talking about the "Democrat National Convention", which doesn't actually exist, Crunchy Frog Aug 2020 #19
If they can't find something to attack, they then make something up DSandra Aug 2020 #20
Step 1: Create straw man. Step 2: Attack straw man. Step 3: Receive cheers from base. Beartracks Aug 2020 #39
Just another one of his speaknow Aug 2020 #21
trumpy definitely is North Shore Chicago Aug 2020 #23
Proof of Trump's abomination. ancianita Aug 2020 #25
Trump's distortion on Democrats and the pledge Make7 Aug 2020 #32
One, only one, video was shown on Fox, of a Muslim saying the pledge w/o "God" in it. ancianita Aug 2020 #34
Sigh... I am SO FREAKIN' TIRED of him. calimary Aug 2020 #26
The ugly history of the "Pledge" is discussed here Thunderbeast Aug 2020 #27
"FAKE NEWS! At 11:01 Lyin' Ted quotes a post from an hour and 20 mintues later!" JHB Aug 2020 #28
he probably heard that on the radio, where they're always saying that certainot Aug 2020 #30
Pledging Allegiance to the Denial of the Racist History of America; djacq Aug 2020 #31
Aaron Rupar with the receipts to prove this is a lie Arazi Aug 2020 #33
And the GOP with Putin put a demon in the White House C Moon Aug 2020 #35
I don't ever say the pledge at all. niyad Aug 2020 #36
This ProfessorGAC Aug 2020 #56
Excellent reply! trump Hates God. Cha Aug 2020 #38
And God obviously doesn't speak to him. Beartracks Aug 2020 #40
Since the con is lying, can't they remove the tweet? KewlKat Aug 2020 #43
Just a minor idea!!! nwliberalkiwi Aug 2020 #45
Since he can't hear The Name, does that make him the Devil? JudyM Aug 2020 #47
I don't know who took God out of the pledge. BUT I do KNOW who spit in GODS eye. THE GOP. usaf-vet Aug 2020 #48
I would go along with that, but it would make sense to take the word under out too. n/t brewens Aug 2020 #52
One of the greatest Christian writers, Augustine of Hippo (354-430), wrote two books about lying Fortinbras Armstrong Aug 2020 #53
thanks for sharing this - much appreciated. nt iluvtennis Aug 2020 #55
The political mind control behind this kerfuffle? bucolic_frolic Aug 2020 #54
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