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In reply to the discussion: Ted Lieu's response to trump's tweet that Dems took the word God out of the Pledge of Allegiance [View all]Fortinbras Armstrong
(4,473 posts)53. One of the greatest Christian writers, Augustine of Hippo (354-430), wrote two books about lying
De Mendacio (About Lying) and Contra Mendacium (Against Lying). In the first, Augustine says that a lie is not so much a distortion of the meaning of the words as it is a lack of fidelity to another person.
When Augustine defined of lying as being untrue to others, he disagreed with most other moralists, who allow equivocation, prevarication, or evasion if at least some meaning of the words can be considered true. But Augustine believed that in the most basic sense, what one says is irrelevant in itself, apart from the intention to deceive. As he points out, one can lie by speaking the truth, or with an expression, or even by silence. Suppose you are asked if you performed some good and heroic act, and you know that silence would be taken as a modest reluctance to claim what is true -- even if it is not. Your silence will deceive the questioner. You intended to deceive, and that intention is Augustine's definition of a lie.
Equivocators would not consider silence a lie, since silence is indeterminate. It is, of itself, equivocal. You can take from it what you want. The person keeping silence, equivocators would claim, is not responsible for another's misinterpretation of the silence, any more than a speaker is responsible for the listener's selection of one from multiple interpretations of the words. For Augustine, such an argument is beside the point. If you think that silence or equivocal words would deceive, you are lying. Even if you fail to deceive, since you intend to lie, you are lying. If you make a true statement, knowing it will not be believed, and wanting it to be disbelieved, the statement may be true but you are false.
Augustine's main point is that we should make an effort to live in the truth.
Augustine's Contra Mendacium considers the specific case about whether it is morally acceptable to lie in furtherance of a good cause. He said that it was not, for three reasons. First, since God is truth itself, lying dishonors both God and the liar. Second, lying is itself a sin, and as the Apostle Paul says, "Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?" (Romans 6:1-3) Third, when the person lied to discovers the lie, he or she will doubt the goodness of the cause.
The basic question is, "do the ends justify the means". According to most ethicists, it does not. Unfortunately, many people, not just many Christians, believe that it does.
When Augustine defined of lying as being untrue to others, he disagreed with most other moralists, who allow equivocation, prevarication, or evasion if at least some meaning of the words can be considered true. But Augustine believed that in the most basic sense, what one says is irrelevant in itself, apart from the intention to deceive. As he points out, one can lie by speaking the truth, or with an expression, or even by silence. Suppose you are asked if you performed some good and heroic act, and you know that silence would be taken as a modest reluctance to claim what is true -- even if it is not. Your silence will deceive the questioner. You intended to deceive, and that intention is Augustine's definition of a lie.
Equivocators would not consider silence a lie, since silence is indeterminate. It is, of itself, equivocal. You can take from it what you want. The person keeping silence, equivocators would claim, is not responsible for another's misinterpretation of the silence, any more than a speaker is responsible for the listener's selection of one from multiple interpretations of the words. For Augustine, such an argument is beside the point. If you think that silence or equivocal words would deceive, you are lying. Even if you fail to deceive, since you intend to lie, you are lying. If you make a true statement, knowing it will not be believed, and wanting it to be disbelieved, the statement may be true but you are false.
Augustine's main point is that we should make an effort to live in the truth.
Augustine's Contra Mendacium considers the specific case about whether it is morally acceptable to lie in furtherance of a good cause. He said that it was not, for three reasons. First, since God is truth itself, lying dishonors both God and the liar. Second, lying is itself a sin, and as the Apostle Paul says, "Should we continue in sin in order that grace may abound? By no means! How can we who died to sin go on living in it?" (Romans 6:1-3) Third, when the person lied to discovers the lie, he or she will doubt the goodness of the cause.
The basic question is, "do the ends justify the means". According to most ethicists, it does not. Unfortunately, many people, not just many Christians, believe that it does.
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Ted Lieu's response to trump's tweet that Dems took the word God out of the Pledge of Allegiance [View all]
iluvtennis
Aug 2020
OP
There are a lot of things classified as an 'abomination' in the bible, yet lying gets a pass?
TheBlackAdder
Aug 2020
#44
If they'd taken God BACK OUT of the Pledge (as the word was originally NOT in it)
mr_lebowski
Aug 2020
#2
+1. I have never said that part since they changed the pledge when I was a kid. n/t
rzemanfl
Aug 2020
#6
Here it is on license plates too. I am careful to get the ones that don't say that.
rzemanfl
Aug 2020
#17
Adding "under god" was a "give - the - babies - their - bottle" moment.
Progressive Jones
Aug 2020
#51
It should be exposed from pulpits, but few if any Evangelicals will bad mouth their "savior"
KS Toronado
Aug 2020
#13
tRUMP IS The Abominable Orangeman... (with apologies to the origninal Orangmen who are
abqtommy
Aug 2020
#11
Since he's talking about the "Democrat National Convention", which doesn't actually exist,
Crunchy Frog
Aug 2020
#19
Step 1: Create straw man. Step 2: Attack straw man. Step 3: Receive cheers from base.
Beartracks
Aug 2020
#39
One, only one, video was shown on Fox, of a Muslim saying the pledge w/o "God" in it.
ancianita
Aug 2020
#34
I don't know who took God out of the pledge. BUT I do KNOW who spit in GODS eye. THE GOP.
usaf-vet
Aug 2020
#48
I would go along with that, but it would make sense to take the word under out too. n/t
brewens
Aug 2020
#52
One of the greatest Christian writers, Augustine of Hippo (354-430), wrote two books about lying
Fortinbras Armstrong
Aug 2020
#53