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Hassin Bin Sober

(26,330 posts)
37. Nope. The president of the senate opens and counts in the presence of congress
Sat Sep 26, 2020, 02:13 AM
Sep 2020

At least that’s a plausible interpretation of The Constitution. It would probably have to go to The Supreme Court if it got that far.


https://lawecommons.luc.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=2719&context=luclj

The Constitution itself says remarkably little relevant to this topic, and what it does say is shockingly ambiguous. Here is the applicable text of the Twelfth Amendment:

[T]he President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;—
The person having the greatest number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President.33


The first thing to observe about this constitutional language is that the critical sentence is written in the passive voice: “the votes shall then be counted.” Here, thus, is the first frustrating ambiguity. It could be the “President of the Senate” who does the counting; or, after the President of the Senate has finished the role of “open[ing] the certificates” then the whole Congress, in this special joint session, collectively counts the electoral votes.

Either way, this language contains no provision for what to do in the event of a dispute, whether with respect to the “certificates” to be “open[ed]” or with respect to the “votes” contained therein. It certainly says nothing about what to do if the President of the Senate has received two conflicting certificates of electoral votes from the same state, each
certificate purporting to come from the state’s authoritatively appointed electors. As the distinguished jurist Joseph Story observed early in the nineteenth century, this crucial constitutional language in the Twelfth Amendment appears to have been written without imaging that it might ever be possible for this sort of dispute to arise.34

Despite its ambiguity, or perhaps because of it, the peculiar passive- voice phrasing of this crucial sentence opens up the possibility of interpreting it to provide that the “President of the Senate” has the exclusive constitutional authority to determine which “certificates” to “open” and thus which electoral votes “to be counted.” This interpretation can derive support from the observation that the President of the Senate is the only officer, or instrumentality, of government given an active role in the process of opening the certificates and counting the electoral votes from the states. The Senate and House of Representatives, on this view, have an observational role only. The opening and counting are conducted in their “presence”—for the sake of transparency—but these two legislative bodies do not actually take any actions of their own in this opening and counting process. How could they? Under the Constitution, the Senate and the House of Representatives only act separately, as entirely distinct legislative chambers. They have no constitutional way to act together as one amalgamated corpus. Thus, they can only watch as the President of the Senate opens the certificates of electoral votes from the states and announces the count of the electoral votes contained therein.

This interpretation of the Twelfth Amendment is bolstered, moreover, by the further observation that the responsibility to definitively decide which electoral votes from each state are entitled to be counted must be lodged ultimately in some singular authority of the federal government. If one body could decide the question one way, while another body could reach the opposite conclusion, then there inevitably is a stalemate unless and until a single authority is identified with the power to settle the matter once and for all. Given the language of the Twelfth Amendment, whatever its ambiguity and potential policy objections, there is no other possible single authority to identify for this purpose besides the President of the Senate.


That's My Take as Well, he Would Need to Do it in WI, MI and PA and they all have Dem governors who Skraxx Sep 2020 #1
2018 will win us 2020! Johnny2X2X Sep 2020 #4
2019, too. We flipped VA blue. lagomorph777 Sep 2020 #13
Thank you! Just_Vote_Dem Sep 2020 #2
Thank dog for a voice of reason and truth. The endless ways folks try to convince us voting is a Hoyt Sep 2020 #3
Who is trying to convince anyone that voting is a waste of time? Jillgirl Sep 2020 #49
Just vote, rather than worrying about all the scenarios the COULD occur. We have Democratic poll Hoyt Sep 2020 #50
Worry has a purpose. Jillgirl Sep 2020 #53
It's just another piece in the PSYOP. n/t rzemanfl Sep 2020 #5
PSYOPS is exactly what it is PNW-Dem Sep 2020 #9
This! n/t MFGsunny Sep 2020 #23
Trump has shrewdly laid the ground work for legal and popular mood challenges. kiri Sep 2020 #6
I call bullshit. The Killer Clown will not get away with anything. Tommymac Sep 2020 #17
Biden's campaign and the Democratic Party have lawyers too... cheezmaka Sep 2020 #32
the post is about substituting electors stopdiggin Sep 2020 #38
Why would you want to counter panic-stricken hyperbole with facts and common sense? brooklynite Sep 2020 #7
I know, right? What good does that do? reACTIONary Sep 2020 #27
ruining a perfectly good meltdown! (nt) stopdiggin Sep 2020 #39
Thank you for this sensible article cp Sep 2020 #8
Thanks for this, Thunderbeast. K&R crickets Sep 2020 #10
Appreciate your words, Thunderbeast. Well said. Firestorm49 Sep 2020 #11
What does your article say about Ohio? Doremus Sep 2020 #12
I didn't read the article, personally, but Mike Dewine is not a governor who would be onboard with jorgevlorgan Sep 2020 #15
He is using the "tipping point" model Thunderbeast Sep 2020 #28
Yeah I get it, but I while those three states will be an unknown jorgevlorgan Sep 2020 #29
Also Florida's stat legislature is in play. If the Dems take it, they are sworn in the next day per jorgevlorgan Sep 2020 #31
Plus Florida is only in session once a year MoonlitKnight Sep 2020 #33
Unless the numbers change drastically before election day the margin is going to be razor thin Doremus Sep 2020 #55
I don't think DeWine would sign a bill to change the law. jorgevlorgan Sep 2020 #56
We need to fight this misinformation. jorgevlorgan Sep 2020 #14
I remember Karl Rove's face in 2008 when they announced Obama won. Tommymac Sep 2020 #18
Precisely Sherman A1 Sep 2020 #45
Fyi Trumpocalypse Sep 2020 #46
537 votes MoonlitKnight Sep 2020 #34
There is nothing physically stopping the Republican legislatures from sending alternate electors. Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2020 #16
Concern noted StarfishSaver Sep 2020 #20
I read it. I also read the piece written in 2019 in The Loyola Law Journal Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2020 #22
no. what we thought was that the arguement was around stopdiggin Sep 2020 #40
Democratic governors will veto any alternate elector bullshit. Demsrule86 Sep 2020 #41
All-Republican government in a couple of important swing states Jillgirl Sep 2020 #51
We don't need those states if we win the blue wall states which all have Democratic Demsrule86 Sep 2020 #58
How do you figure? Jillgirl Sep 2020 #59
The "rules" for making laws in those states onenote Sep 2020 #64
+ 1000 n/t MFGsunny Sep 2020 #24
Infantile hyperbole Tarc Sep 2020 #30
Yes, but it was good for a week's worth of DeminPennswoods Sep 2020 #66
And there's nothing stopping the governor and SOS from sending their own electors Wanderlust988 Sep 2020 #35
Nope. The president of the senate opens and counts in the presence of congress Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2020 #37
Wr are likely to win the Senate. Demsrule86 Sep 2020 #42
So if we don't win a sizable election it they might steal it so it's not a fantasy. I agree. Hassin Bin Sober Sep 2020 #54
I don't see Trump stealing anything...I think we may be looking at a realignment election... Demsrule86 Sep 2020 #57
Thank you! StarfishSaver Sep 2020 #19
This! n/t MFGsunny Sep 2020 #25
It is not but could demoralize voters. people play into Trumps hands when they Demsrule86 Sep 2020 #43
Excellent source of info! UserNotFound Sep 2020 #21
Good read. nt flying rabbit Sep 2020 #26
Bookmarked.. TY Thunderbeast! Cha Sep 2020 #36
Thanks for posting Sherman A1 Sep 2020 #44
FYI Trumpocalypse Sep 2020 #47
And what is the motivation for those here to post things that claim we are doomed and Demsrule86 Sep 2020 #48
Great Q & A on at that link - thanks for posting! gristy Sep 2020 #52
Not seeing it JeaneRaye Sep 2020 #60
Here is the static link to the story Thunderbeast Sep 2020 #61
Voter suppression and challenges to vote counting ARE real threats... AntiFascist Sep 2020 #62
Color me skeptical. not_the_one Sep 2020 #63
With respect to the article's overview of the Dred Scott decision Fortinbras Armstrong Sep 2020 #65
Bad link - goes to letters from readers about multiple topics. Correct link here: Fiendish Thingy Sep 2020 #67
Much confusion on link. Thunderbeast Sep 2020 #68
As I expected. honest.abe Sep 2020 #69
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