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Tansy_Gold

(17,860 posts)
185. I am far from irrational. Cursing does not equate to irrationality.
Sat Jan 21, 2012, 01:11 AM
Jan 2012

You have been suggesting throughout your posts that "deviants" who force others, including wives, girlfriends, or even strangers, into having sex ought to be made examples of. Unfortunately, we don't have a justice system in place to handle most of those cases should they be brought to court. And we certainly don't have a prison system large enough to contain all the convicted perps, assuming any would actually be convicted.

Until the 1978 Oregon case of Greta and John Rideout, there was virtually no such legal thing as spousal rape. The cultural and legal understanding was that marriage gave the husband not only exclusive sexual rights to his wife but that he could exercise those rights at any time with or without her expressed consent. Similar to the laws of implied consent that come with a driver's license -- if you're asked to take a blood alcohol test, you can't say you didn't consent, because you've implied your consent when you accept the license -- the marriage license was considered the woman's permanent and irrevocable consent to sex, whenever, however, wherever her husband wanted it. She no longer had ownership of her own body; it belonged to her husband.

I don't know when you were born, Zalatrix, but I was married in 1969. My children were born in 1976 and 1977. I was raised and married in a time and in a culture when spousal sexual rights had the force of law. Because most such laws are set by states rather than the federal government, in the wake of the Rideout case, more states began to pass laws regarding marital rape, and one such debate produced the quote from an outraged California assemblyman, "If we can't rape our wives, who can we rape?" (Variously attributed to British politicians as well; I have the original reference somewhere in my notes but I'm not going to look for it now.) The point is that even into the 1990s, some states still prohibited charges of rape within a marriage.

What's moral and what's reprehensible may not be distinctions under the law, and when the law is on one side, it's pretty damn difficult for the other side to fight back. Not impossible, but still difficult.

The Rideout case ended in acquittal for John because, as one juror said, they didn't know who to believe and therefore there was reasonable doubt. Even with laws in place prohibiting marital rape, how does one prosecute? If it's not forcible rape that leaves bruises or other physical evidence of force (which can be explained away anyway) and there are no witnesses, what jury will convict? How does one present evidence of coercion?

Have you ever read the story of Charlotte and John Fedders? Raised a devout Catholic and trained as a nurse, Charlotte wanted nothing more than to be a devoted wife and mother, raising lots and lots of Catholic children. She married John Fedders, who eventually would become chief enforcement officer with the Securities and Exchange Commission. He made a lot of money and he kept her in a very nice home and put their six boys in Catholic school and belonged to the country club and presented a public face of utmost respectability. But he was violently abusive, and Charlotte, raised to believe the external trappings of success were incompatible with his behavior -- successful men didn't behave like that, only poor trashy folks did -- denied his abuse for years. She had internalized all the propaganda.

Francine Hughes and her husband Mickey might have fit Charlotte's image of trashy people. Mickey was so abusive that Francine killed him by setting fire to the bed he was sleeping in; her account "The Burning Bed" was turned into the TV movie that brought the late Farrah Fawcett an Emmy nomination. How long ago did Francine kill Mickey? 1977. Just about that same time that John Rideout was (allegedly) raping his wife Greta. And not too long after that, the big pop culture event was the rape-followed-by-the-wedding of Luke and Laura on the soap opera General Hospital. Rape morphed into seduction morphed into love. So which was it?

Is it any wonder women like Charlotte Fedders were confused? She knew John was violently abusive. He'd kicked her down a flight of stairs and caused her to miscarry. He'd broken her ribs. Unlike Francine Hughes, Charlotte had resources -- not the least of which was professional training that would have enabled her to earn a living independent of John -- but she was also receiving all these conflicting cultural messages.

Read Susan Douglas' "Where the Girls Are" to get some idea of the mixed messages sent to girls in the 1960s and 1970s. Watch Jean Kilbourne's videos on the media's images of women in teh 70s and 80s and 90s and 2000s. Understand that both men and women, beginning before puberty, are bombarded with these images and messages.

Now I'm going to throw another cultural bombshell into this mix -- the 1972 publication of the blockbuster historical romance novel "The Flame and the Flower" by Kathleen E. Woodiwiss. "Gone With the Wind" had had another theatrical release in 1967 and would make its TV debut in 1976; whether that TV release was in response to the by-then explosion of paperback original romance novels, I don't know, but I do know that rape-as-romance had become a cultural phenomenon. Regardless whether you like or loathe them, historical romances of the 1970s were -- and remain -- a major industry and cultural influence, and the debate over whether it's rape or forced seduction or romance or whatever continues.

And what's the most "romantic" scene in "Gone with the Wind"? Why it's when Rhett hauls Scarlett up those stairs and has his wicked way with her against her will and then she's purrin' like a kitten the next morning. Rape as romance.

Of course it's fantasy. We all know it's fantasy. We all know that's not "real" rape. But as Helen Hazen would write in 1983, "I would like to be raped, but I want it to happen to me exactly as it happened to (the heroine) in (a romance novel).” The debate, often heated, continues with the romance-reading and -writing community. And not all the readers of romances or the viewers of soap operas or the fans of "reality" shows are as savvy as those of us here on DU. The vast majority of the population IS influenced by these cultural products. Their mindsets and even their morals are informed by the messages they receive from pop culture.

While all this was going on, in the 1970s and 1980s, laws were changing, to be sure. Rape shield laws went into effect, supposedly preventing a rape victim's sexual past being used to discredit her accusations. Marital rape became a crime. But the culture hadn't changed. The New Bedford gang rape of Cheryl Araujo occurred in 1983. "The Accused," a fictionalized account based on the New Bedford rape, earned Jodie Foster an Oscar in 1988. In 1989, a group of high school atheletes in Glen Ridge, New Jersey, brutally raped a mentally challenged girl with a broomstick, and were defended by locals who accused the girl of being promiscuous.

84% of rapists -- not "potential" rapists but guys who have done the deed -- do not believe what they did was "really" rape. They don't see themselves as rapists, because rapists are deviants. Real rapists are like convicted child molester Richard Hurles, who was probably so brain-damaged by the violent abuse he suffered at the hands of his father that he didn't really have much of a clue what he was doing was wrong. Not long after his release on parole he sexually assaulted and murdered Kay Blanton, librarian of the Buckeye, Arizona, Public Library. Hurles is a "deviant." Ted Bundy was a "deviant." The men and boys in Cleveland, Texas who gang raped an 11-year-old girl in 2010 were not, in the opinion of many residents of the small, poor Texas town, deviants; instead, they blamed the girl, for dressing too provocatively and looking older than she really was. "Our Guys" in Glen Ridge, NJ, were not "deviants."

We all know it's wrong to drink and drive. We know there are laws against drunk driving, driving under the infuence, driving while impaired. Many of us know the severe penalties for being caught; an acquaintance of mine is currently facing about $12,000 in fines, court costs, impound fees, and lawyer's fees because of DUI. He's not an alcoholic, with a physical inability to control his consumption. He just thought that since the bar was only about a mile from his home, he could drive that short a distance without an accident. Well, he didn't have an accident, but he was driving so slow he caught the attention of a patrolling police officer. The point is, however, that popular culture encourages drinking. The various warnings to drink responsibly are not as pleasure-inducing as the commercials with the skimpily clad girls.

Which is precisely why so many anti-rape campaigns have failed in the past. They aren't as sexy -- pardon the really bad pun -- as a rape-as-romance novel or Clark Gable carrying a kicking and screaming Vivien Leigh up the staircase or Paris Hilton or Lindsay Lohan or whoever the latest pop twit is sprawled undie-less in the paparazzi's camera lens. Women and women's sexuality becomes a joke, and the women become dehumanized.

So the MyStrength project targets young couples, but it doesn't say anything about casual hook-ups or dating before commitment. It doesn't address the pervasive culture that's already in place. There are no PSAs during the NFL play-offs that say "NO means NO." (We will, however, get commercials from Randall Terry about the evils of abortion, and we all know that the anti-abortion is also anti-woman, and it defends the rights of rapists to own and control the bodies of their victims, while denying the rights of the victims to owenrship and control of their bodies.) Just as the passage of civil rights legislation in the 1950s and 1960s hasn't done way with bigotry and prejudice and de facto segregation, anti-rape legislation and projects have not addressed the culture. It's still securely in place, and vociferously defended by those who have a vested interest in it.

Men who pressure their wives or girlfriends into having sex don't think they're doing anything wrong. She doesn't feel good, she has a head ache, the kids wore her out, her job sucks, so what? All he wants is a little lovin' and she's his wife so he nags and touches and she shoves his hand away and he puts it right back and he's insistent and after all she's his wife and. . . . most men don't consider that rape. Persuasion maybe, or persistence, but not rape.

Not all men, of course. Some read the signals and are respectful enough and don't even try. But others have internalized the popular culture. Like the guy in my AJS 305 class, they figure they're entitled. They're just taking what belongs to them, no big deal. She doesn't have to enjoy it if she doesn't want to, but he spent money on her after all, and what's a woman for if not. . . .

So how do we go about changing the culture? First of all, by admitting that it exists, that it's very powerful, and that it is ABOUT power. Understand that every time there's a commercial or a magazine ad that shows a woman being victimized, it sends a message. Don't be silent when you see it -- start a dialogue. Afraid you'll be laughed at? Is that the worst that can happen? Is it more important that you NOT be laughed at than that you make an effort to change the message being sent to men and women about sexual and bodily integrity?

Start by recognizing that ANYONE can be a rapist. Just because he's gay or he's got a good job or he comes from nice people and went to a good school -- none of those qualities prevents him from also being a guy who thinks he's entitled to sex on demand and is capable of coercing or pressuring his partner into delivering.

Start by stopping with blaming the victim. Regardless what she wore or how much she drank or who she was with or what she did before with him or with other guys, the guy chose to assault her against her wishes or without her consent.

Start by stopping with equating rape to deviant behavior. Understand that non-consensual sex is culturally, if not overtly, condoned and encouraged. Learn to look for and be aware of examples of this.

Start by examining your own behavior. Even if you insist you never have and never would commit rape, do you do other things that support a rape culture? Do you laugh at lokes that demean women? Do you evaluate women foremost on their physical attributes? Do you summarily dismiss women's assessments of their situations because your experience is different?

That's what it's going to take: teaching, and learning, cultural awareness, so that the messages are no longer effective. I never said it would be easy or quick, any more than overcoming racism was accomplished with the Brown decision.

Susan Brownmiller wrote "Against Our Will" in 1975; Susan Faludi's "Backlash" came out in 1991. The greater backlash continues two more decades on. This is a battle that has been going on for a long time. We shouldn't have to be still fighting it, but the problem still exists, and the fight must continue. That it has to continue here, in a forum where we're all supposed to be enlightened and reasonably progressive, is particularly discouraging. But it's better to continue fighting than to give in.


But if men stopped raping then women wouldn't get so many lectures and blame-the-victim anymore. Quantess Jan 2012 #1
Indeed. I'm all for teaching basic safety and awareness, which are good things for everyone to learn arcane1 Jan 2012 #2
How so? I see the OP as promoting a way to start addressing the cause -- Remember Me Jan 2012 #52
I was generalizing, not speaking specifically to the OP n/t arcane1 Jan 2012 #119
Yes. The subject line is simply misleading. Orsino Jan 2012 #163
Can we do both? Hugabear Jan 2012 #3
Yeah, when people don't even know what rape is, redqueen Jan 2012 #7
can you point me somewhere reputable and non-anectdotal where the existence of date-rape is... ret5hd Jan 2012 #28
Expounded as in explained? redqueen Jan 2012 #29
well, just point me towards your best source, the on most likely to make me say... ret5hd Jan 2012 #34
Perhaps you could start here ... etherealtruth Jan 2012 #35
1 & 2 are completely anecdotal...a crackpot ga rep and a govt justice employee do not constitute... ret5hd Jan 2012 #40
Susan Estrich is a respected law professor etherealtruth Jan 2012 #42
this article does not speak to denial of date rape, but to minimalizing the crime. ret5hd Jan 2012 #43
Excuse me ...? etherealtruth Jan 2012 #44
"real and prevalent" to you... redqueen Jan 2012 #36
oops, replied to #35 instead of you. please forgive. ret5hd Jan 2012 #41
Not that the FBI is particularly "reputable," but they didn't admit there was such a thing Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #168
I was almost raped in college, and didn't realize it Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #61
That is very common. redqueen Jan 2012 #88
everything in our society directs, leads, conditions to this and we act like seabeyond Jan 2012 #92
That happened to me a few times laundry_queen Jan 2012 #120
It's so weird isn't it? For the longest time I felt that it was part of my role in life to Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #136
I agree. There is always value to teaching people how to avoid being victimized. yellowcanine Jan 2012 #11
Unfortunately, the blame DOES get put on the women by these "guides" Scootaloo Jan 2012 #13
Agreed. We can approach the problem from more than one angle. nt. Hosnon Jan 2012 #170
A balance approach is requried ProgressiveProfessor Jan 2012 #4
Unfortunately people like the Dominique Strauss-Kahns of this world will never learn these lessons, Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #5
Is there a copy of the ad somewhere jberryhill Jan 2012 #6
This article has a picture. redqueen Jan 2012 #8
Oh, wow, that's worse than I thought jberryhill Jan 2012 #9
they sexualized the girl while addressing rape. ONE of the many examples fed to our seabeyond Jan 2012 #94
headline is not very pleasant quinnox Jan 2012 #10
I agree it shouldn't be tossed around lightly. redqueen Jan 2012 #14
yup quinnox Jan 2012 #16
How not to get raped Zalatix Jan 2012 #12
How not to get the point Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #23
Not to speak for the poster you're responding to, mythology Jan 2012 #31
Still missing the point... redqueen Jan 2012 #33
You might as well try to educate lions not to prey on gazelles or whatever. Zalatix Jan 2012 #54
In other words, you're saying that Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #59
No, I am saying that people who are deviant are deviant. Zalatix Jan 2012 #64
Nonsense Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #68
how about if we simple change our language for our younger boys. make sure girl is enthusiastic seabeyond Jan 2012 #89
And stop telling girls it's bad to be that way. redqueen Jan 2012 #93
exactly allow a girl ownership of her sexuality. which is exactly opposite what society does today seabeyond Jan 2012 #96
Enthusiasm shouldn't be confused with consenting. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #98
i would say, when she says stop, there is no longer the enthusiasm. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #101
And that goes right back to the original point Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #118
i agree with all of it until the end seabeyond Jan 2012 #122
Thank you. Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #114
the point is, and must be clear. because a girl says yes seabeyond Jan 2012 #115
that's pretty smart. nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #198
I guess you didn't read what I said. Anyone who fails to obey "no" Zalatix Jan 2012 #133
I did read what you wrote Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #159
How do you suppose to educate someone who excuses spousal rape? Zalatix Jan 2012 #169
First of all, unless you've been there, don't presume to know what it's like Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #174
Excuse me? You're the one cursing and getting irrational. I don't need to know what it's like Zalatix Jan 2012 #175
I am far from irrational. Cursing does not equate to irrationality. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #185
i read it. what a post. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #187
That is the best post I've ever seen on DU. redqueen Jan 2012 #188
This post deserves to be an OP varelse Jan 2012 #197
+1 redqueen Jan 2012 #210
THANK YOU! ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ uppityperson Jan 2012 #209
rape most certainly is deviant arely staircase Jan 2012 #199
in their mind, they are not interpreting it as rape. i dont know why people dont get this. seabeyond Jan 2012 #200
Check out the seduction community.. redqueen Jan 2012 #204
i do not know what you are talking. i saw a bit on a thread. seduction has never worked for me. seabeyond Jan 2012 #206
It means if a woman starts resisting your advances for sex redqueen Jan 2012 #207
ya. that. eeew. it was in all the movies. it always made me uncomfortable. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #211
im sure all sorts of deviants, not only rapists, arely staircase Jan 2012 #216
"Rape" as in "real rape" is "deviant." Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #218
one is either a rapist or not rapist. and if one is a rapist one is deviant - regardless of arely staircase Jan 2012 #222
The problem with this kind of thinking Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #231
uh, you are the one asserting that there is a third category (outside of rapist or not rapist), arely staircase Jan 2012 #233
I think you've completely misunderstood Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #238
as i suspected nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #240
Actually, if you put everything I've posted together... Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #242
seriously, can't you whittle this down to a succinct statement? like, two to three arely staircase Jan 2012 #243
No. I'm not you. Thank the goddess. n/t Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #244
better luck next time. nt arely staircase Jan 2012 #245
I'm not a psychologist, but. . . . Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #217
this is the problem and the refusal to allow this concept to be realized. for whatever reason, this seabeyond Jan 2012 #219
I think in some cases -- maybe here, maybe not -- it's fear Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #220
i think this should be the conversation, the starting point, in the next thread. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #221
Excellent post. ronnie624 Jan 2012 #152
The problem is that boys and men know it all, too, Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #82
I dont think they do. redqueen Jan 2012 #84
It's NOT a tiny tiny minority Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #102
Again, you're making the assumption Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #45
That is superb -- brilliant too. Remember Me Jan 2012 #55
Because "assholes who rape" will stop being assholes if only they knew better? mistertrickster Jan 2012 #67
you are more concerned about the rad fems than girls/women being raped. and a boys/mans life ruined seabeyond Jan 2012 #91
exactly Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #103
i have a couple sons. i have a couple of nieces. you can damn well bet have discussed ownership seabeyond Jan 2012 #105
K&R Solly Mack Jan 2012 #15
My sister has 4 daughters - all of them small in stature Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #17
And all those various things, those "safety measures" prove Remember Me Jan 2012 #56
I know. It's a bit of a war zone for us. nt Sarah Ibarruri Jan 2012 #58
I plan on doing both with my children. ZombieHorde Jan 2012 #18
+1000 Remember Me Jan 2012 #235
rec x eleventy billion lapislzi Jan 2012 #19
People don't understand how painful their words can be. Marrah_G Jan 2012 #20
I've never been in a bar-fight. mistertrickster Jan 2012 #21
Please read the essay Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #24
Thank you. redqueen Jan 2012 #25
Looks to me like you're both telling me what I think and attacking me for it at the same time. mistertrickster Jan 2012 #65
No, I most certainly did not tell you what you think. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #79
You seem to be assuming that women don't do anything to prevent rape lunatica Jan 2012 #86
Excellent response. n/t Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #104
"I also don't know any women who go to bars alone." Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #117
i lived in reno, a 24 hour town, late shift. i went into bars alone. i had no problem, nor felt seabeyond Jan 2012 #124
I too lived in Reno for a few years; greiner3 Jan 2012 #166
i would be served the booze. a lot. for free. lol lol. seabeyond Jan 2012 #167
Not all men are rapists -- BUT Remember Me Jan 2012 #236
Good idea treestar Jan 2012 #22
BRAVO Ebony Magazine. Matariki Jan 2012 #26
Jackson Katz has been trying to change this paradigm for some time, too. PeaceNikki Jan 2012 #27
Oh yes, I love his work... redqueen Jan 2012 #30
Here's another I literally just found that I think you'll enjoy: PeaceNikki Jan 2012 #32
Evidence-free conclusion . . . mistertrickster Jan 2012 #69
It's called male privilege Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #80
get a girl drunk on a date, men pay for it one way or another, no doesnt mean no.... the simple seabeyond Jan 2012 #99
This bears repeating: "prevention in not really prevention; rather, it's risk reduction," Remember Me Jan 2012 #241
k/r fishwax Jan 2012 #37
I'd like to clear something up. redqueen Jan 2012 #38
I am incredulous etherealtruth Jan 2012 #46
Uh, they're into denying ANY Remember Me Jan 2012 #57
I know etherealtruth Jan 2012 #172
Part of the response may be the caption - which wasn't limited to advertisements. Ms. Toad Jan 2012 #47
My daughters do not need ad campaigns, as I can provide them with basic, common sense advice myself. Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #50
college campus's now have a team of jr and sr that goes to these parties to watch out for the seabeyond Jan 2012 #97
This terrifies me. stevenleser Jan 2012 #157
All of the above. n/t Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #161
so much is about her own empowerment and confidence and that is gained in time. seabeyond Jan 2012 #164
As part of every graduation gift for young women, I give them Gavin DeBecker's "The Gift of Fear" riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #229
I entirely agree with the concept, but seriously lack the faith in testosterone laden persons to Lionessa Jan 2012 #39
You do realize how offensive that is, right? redqueen Jan 2012 #138
agreed. nt seabeyond Jan 2012 #143
"anti-rape campaigns that target young men and boys" vs arely staircase Jan 2012 #48
Fully agree. While boys need to be taught that "no means no" Nye Bevan Jan 2012 #49
they are both very important things to teach - nevermind public service announcements arely staircase Jan 2012 #192
This. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jan 2012 #77
Why is this so hard to understand? EOTE Jan 2012 #127
very good points. i do believe education (of boys and men) can prevent rapes arely staircase Jan 2012 #186
K&R! Louisiana1976 Jan 2012 #51
I suspect this has been asked before but... randome Jan 2012 #53
Because I find them worthy of discussion. redqueen Jan 2012 #81
It's a huge social problem chrisa Jan 2012 #112
Exactly, it's men that need to be told to not rape. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #60
Great idea. Tell bankers not to foreclose on people's houses while you're at it. nt mistertrickster Jan 2012 #75
Correction: it's rapists that need to be told to not rape. Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #83
Once again, like it or not, ALL MEN are potential rapists Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #106
Or ask my friend who was raped by her BFs friend. Odin2005 Jan 2012 #108
I guess what I dislike is this attitude Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #110
Silly Analogy ProfessorGAC Jan 2012 #128
You're not a rapist, but you are a potential rapist Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #130
Tansy, I'm going to be blunt. Occulus Jan 2012 #140
I have merely stated facts Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #142
Interesting to see the insults thrown around... redqueen Jan 2012 #144
Well? What the hell do you expect? Occulus Jan 2012 #147
*sigh* redqueen Jan 2012 #148
See below. Occulus Jan 2012 #150
It doesn't make any difference. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #160
Rape is about power, not sex FrodosPet Jan 2012 #246
That's just blatantly offensive Lance_Boyle Jan 2012 #134
Lance, if you go back to the sex/women's issue threads of the past several weeks, Occulus Jan 2012 #135
It's not offensive and it's not wrong -- ALL WOMEN are potential false rape accusers Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #137
Apparently your logic is highly offensive. redqueen Jan 2012 #139
You mean, the thread that just got locked? Occulus Jan 2012 #145
POTENTIAL. You want to go look that up, or keep waving the strawman around? redqueen Jan 2012 #146
Distinction without a difference. Occulus Jan 2012 #149
We're done. redqueen Jan 2012 #151
There you go again Occulus Jan 2012 #154
I would say it's hard to believe that you actually truly do think... redqueen Jan 2012 #156
Saying "all men are potential rapists" does the trick rather nicely. Occulus Jan 2012 #158
No, it's just as logical. And thanks for the nasty picture, too... redqueen Jan 2012 #153
That picture has fuck-all to do with the way a woman looks Occulus Jan 2012 #155
Let's see. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #162
no they aren't, that is a hateful thing to say. arely staircase Jan 2012 #189
I never said women can't or don't coerce or pester partners into sex Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #191
Just to clarify -- You do understand the difference between "potential" and "future," don't you? Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #193
i think you are being a bit more clear, i think arely staircase Jan 2012 #196
All WOMEN can potentially falsely accuse men of rape. cottonseed Jan 2012 #232
Yeah, I know. I said that. Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #239
Correction: Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #121
this is the newest study and i cannot find others i have seen on this. it matters with study, seabeyond Jan 2012 #126
Yes, I know Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #129
ahhhhh. really? wow. it was all layed out. a number of different studies seabeyond Jan 2012 #131
Try using the Wayback Machine or Google Cache... justiceischeap Jan 2012 #132
Thanks for posting that link. redqueen Jan 2012 #141
If there is any one person who explodes the "scary monster" myth Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #194
Yeah, society doesn't want to go down that road yet apparently... redqueen Jan 2012 #205
k&r uppityperson Jan 2012 #62
This article baldly states that "it's not effective" - any reason to believe that? Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #63
Um, maybe if it were effective, women wouldn't still be getting raped? Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #66
"Only about 20% of rapes are reported to law enforcement" mistertrickster Jan 2012 #72
Many rapes are reported to other agencies besides law enforcement Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #73
Then those agencies are covering up a crime that should be prosecuted. nt mistertrickster Jan 2012 #74
Many rapes aren't reported BECAUSE they can't be prosecuted Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #76
Tansy you've done a terrific job of making your point on this thread lunatica Jan 2012 #87
+1 redqueen Jan 2012 #90
Thank you, Lunatica, and redqueen, too Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #107
I think you've obviously got the bona fides to show you know what you're talking about lunatica Jan 2012 #109
What are YOU Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #123
I would imagine if a woman goes to the hospital after she's been raped justiceischeap Jan 2012 #100
That is not logical, captain. Donald Ian Rankin Jan 2012 #113
a very large group of boys/men you do not address are those that dont see rape, as rape. seabeyond Jan 2012 #116
Yes Sera_Bellum Jan 2012 #125
Post removed Post removed Jan 2012 #71
I heard a LOT of advice when Kobe, Tyson, and Roethlisberger were accused. U4ikLefty Jan 2012 #70
AG Holder announces new FBI definition of rape niyad Jan 2012 #78
K DeathToTheOil Jan 2012 #85
I am so sick and tired of the women being blamed for this LynneSin Jan 2012 #95
I think a "don't rape" campaign could be effective, chrisa Jan 2012 #111
I am way late to this party. Busy few days, but have to add my "voice" of support. nt riderinthestorm Jan 2012 #165
"is it rape?" mzteris Jan 2012 #171
Thank you for posting that here. (nt) redqueen Jan 2012 #173
I'm sorry but a lot of us men would never dream of forcing ourselves on a woman and find this ddeclue Jan 2012 #176
1. There is no broad brushing of "all men as rapists". redqueen Jan 2012 #177
can I call you a whaambulance for telling you the truth? ddeclue Jan 2012 #178
No but you can use one yourself for your excuses for rejection. redqueen Jan 2012 #179
reply ddeclue Jan 2012 #180
i married my friend. i have always liked nice guys, wont accept anything less in my life seabeyond Jan 2012 #182
I've always preferred being sober Tansy_Gold Jan 2012 #190
... it just gets worse, doesn't it? redqueen Jan 2012 #183
... ddeclue Jan 2012 #230
Men AND women get drunk as an excuse to have sex Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #202
If you *assume* that a woman gets drunk in order to have sex with you, redqueen Jan 2012 #203
Again, I don't see why this is so difficult... Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #208
" a lot of women INTENTIONALLY go out and get that drunk on purpose ... redqueen Jan 2012 #212
As I posted above, I think the poster is frustrated by some bad experiences Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #214
"too drunk for her own good" redqueen Jan 2012 #215
no I'm not saying most I am saying some... ddeclue Jan 2012 #228
You said "most". redqueen Jan 2012 #237
My rule is that she must be 1) more sober than me. 2) not have had more than 3 glasses of wine in ddeclue Jan 2012 #223
i think those are pretty good ground rules seabeyond Jan 2012 #224
actually I am such an easy drunk (and I am a relatively big guy) that 2 or 3 glasses and I have a ddeclue Jan 2012 #226
bah haha, see. i drink like you do. seabeyond Jan 2012 #227
I think you have entirely too broad a definition of "taking advantage of" Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #234
You should be honored that several women found you to be trustworthy friends Nikia Jan 2012 #184
that would be great if it wasn't ALWAYS the case. Women love to make friends with me. ddeclue Jan 2012 #225
I think you're broad brushing women based on some bad experiences Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #213
Sexual Assault Prevention Tips JNelson6563 Jan 2012 #181
Never. Iggo Jan 2012 #195
I agreed up until the part about consumption of alcohol Hippo_Tron Jan 2012 #201
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