General Discussion

YoungDemCA

(5,714 posts)

7. I don't think it's really about "good men" vs "bad men"....

Sun Feb 10, 2013, 08:44 PM

Feb 2013

I think, rather, that the issue here is how sexism and misogyny are so institutionalized and so embedded in society, that the ideology of said sexism and misogyny is pervasive.

Speaking for myself as a man...I can be empathetic and sympathetic, I can try to understand, and I like to think of myself as well-intentioned, but I know in my heart I will not completely see things from a woman's perspective, just as a white person, I literally cannot completely, 100%, see things from the perspective of a person of color, or as a straight person, see things from the perspective of a member of the LGBTQ community.

All of this, of course, doesn't mean that I shouldn't do my damnedest to try to be aware, understand, empathize, and bridge the gaps of experience and social class. Ignorance or apathy is no excuse for bigotry.

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Eve Ensler on the passivity of men [View all] babylonsister Feb 2013 OP

Let me be the first to rec this libtodeath Feb 2013 #1

This message was self-deleted by its author freshwest Feb 2013 #2

lol. i didnt wonder about men until i had two sons and learned seabeyond Feb 2013 #3

This message was self-deleted by its author freshwest Feb 2013 #6

Odd, I have a daughter and two granddaughters Fumesucker Feb 2013 #8

all you have to do is look at societal conditioning and the difference we treat male and female seabeyond Feb 2013 #10

Our culture is awash to the gunwales with female sexuality and hypersexuality Fumesucker Feb 2013 #14

womens sexuality is only used to promote and give to, entertain and validate mens sexuality seabeyond Feb 2013 #15

If a man shows one iota of vulnerability in our culture he's dead meat walking Fumesucker Feb 2013 #16

again, something we do not condition our boys with. then on the other hand, seabeyond Feb 2013 #17

I learned that lesson early on in high school. uriel1972 Feb 2013 #19

Took me to 40 Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #223

i have never asked for a "white knight". i do expect commen decency and that is not gender seabeyond Feb 2013 #227

+1 HiPointDem Feb 2013 #26

For that, you get another heart. Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #314

Odd you bring this up. timdog44 Feb 2013 #12

I don't believe that for a sec. Even if a study says it. I'm over 50; I've pretty much got a handle Honeycombe8 Feb 2013 #22

Don't worry the feminists Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #194

Dear Eve: Don't assume that the majority of Men are not outraged by the action of rape... BlueJazz Feb 2013 #4

Do they express that rage to other men marions ghost Feb 2013 #96

I've talked to men about what a lousy deal that women have had to endure.. BlueJazz Feb 2013 #110

I think men need to do more than actually discuss. They need to take action. Luminous Animal Feb 2013 #126

We have similar friends... marions ghost Feb 2013 #305

what a very insightful and worth the read post... seabeyond Feb 2013 #309

thanks seabeyond marions ghost Feb 2013 #311

thank you. but the best? they get to shed the conditioning and stereotypes given to men, seabeyond Feb 2013 #315

I believe your words are true and just but... BlueJazz Feb 2013 #329

i think it is a possibility if a man really wants to see. absolutely. i think even more so seabeyond Feb 2013 #354

Yes, they/you are out there--and the more marions ghost Feb 2013 #380

I tend to hang around with good people...those that it's hard to say an unkind word about or.. BlueJazz Feb 2013 #398

I totally agree with her, but I'm not impressed by her 'awareness' raising methods, which seem ancianita Feb 2013 #5

I don't think it's really about "good men" vs "bad men".... YoungDemCA Feb 2013 #7

but even better, you can completely see it from a mans view and i think seabeyond Feb 2013 #9

Likewise, thanks for your post. YoungDemCA Feb 2013 #62

And yet... lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #69

It's asking men to have empathy and solidarity.... bettyellen Feb 2013 #85

*crickets* bettyellen Feb 2013 #433

Thank you for trying to understand. smirkymonkey Feb 2013 #493

On what basis is she assuming men aren't angry about rape and humiliation of women? Bucky Feb 2013 #11

Ironic sidenote: I'm a bad man and a horrid human being and I'm *still* anti-rape Bucky Feb 2013 #13

On the basis that they get all dismissive, pissy and make it bettyellen Feb 2013 #28

+10000000000000000000000000000000 redqueen Feb 2013 #117

Well said. Many posts in this thread perfectly illustrate the factuality of your post. nt Zorra Feb 2013 #288

If someone doesn't want good men to start from a defensive stance, then Hosnon Feb 2013 #369

When they completely refuse to discuss the topic.... bettyellen Feb 2013 #373

They probably refuse to discuss the topic because it began with an implicit attack. Hosnon Feb 2013 #374

So they come only to derail it. Trolling, basically. bettyellen Feb 2013 #377

It's only an attack if you're guilty of what someone is talking about justiceischeap Feb 2013 #414

True- quite a few of the men here have explained their non support due to bitterness.... bettyellen Feb 2013 #421

I love Eve Ensler and I think she is making a valid point. Kath1 Feb 2013 #18

Men as protectors... Bonobo Feb 2013 #20

Historically, most men protected only what they perceive as their own.... bettyellen Feb 2013 #33

i am thinking rape as a tool in war. the other side "protecting" while raping and vice versa. seabeyond Feb 2013 #34

Gotcha. We're evil. nt Bonobo Feb 2013 #35

really? that is how you reduce the conversation. dont buy what you say, seabeyond Feb 2013 #37

Come on now, you can't whine about how hard you all have it... bettyellen Feb 2013 #38

Make up your mind. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #71

There's a middle road. But you need to respect and care about women bettyellen Feb 2013 #75

The middle of the road is paved with squashed skunks. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #77

You're smarter than this B&W either/ or mindset... bettyellen Feb 2013 #94

Men are also more prone to be *victims* of serious physical violence. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #346

Yes! Why don't men stop hurting everyone? bettyellen Feb 2013 #347

It's a fixable problem. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #349

One in three or four is seriously fucked up.... Which is why we're bettyellen Feb 2013 #378

According to the DOJ, .84 people per thousand (aged 12 and over) are raped each year. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #402

And 99% of the rapists are men.... So kind of premature to bettyellen Feb 2013 #410

Define "serious issue". lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #418

Not doing it, sorry. bettyellen Feb 2013 #419

it might help BainsBane Feb 2013 #471

that is ludicrous BainsBane Feb 2013 #413

Strong words. Weak evidence. n/t lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #416

I provided evidence BainsBane Feb 2013 #434

"Nursing hostility? Nope. I married once and well. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #437

well, I was trying to understand your issues BainsBane Feb 2013 #449

Back up a step. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #453

some things are obvious, Jack BainsBane Feb 2013 #455

Obvious? lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #458

tell you what BainsBane Feb 2013 #460

Could you recommend a few? n/t lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #461

where do you live? BainsBane Feb 2013 #462

If I had my preferred MD's sorted by geography lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #464

wow, your responses to straight forward questions BainsBane Feb 2013 #465

Run away or I shall taunt you some more. n/t lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #467

you underestimate me BainsBane Feb 2013 #468

Hurt feelings lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #469

there is an easy solution BainsBane Feb 2013 #472

Oh, I get it now BainsBane Feb 2013 #466

actual crime stats BainsBane Feb 2013 #415

So, by "lie" you mean "truth". Apology accepted. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #417

and men are the perpetrators BainsBane Feb 2013 #430

No. I blame criminals for violence against men and women. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #436

exactly BainsBane Feb 2013 #450

I get the logic. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #454

where did I say men should be punished? BainsBane Feb 2013 #456

The repetitive, redundant omnipresent observation that most criminals are men depends on the premise lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #457

actally I provided statistical evidence BainsBane Feb 2013 #459

I didn't say that. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #463

You still have no evidence BainsBane Feb 2013 #473

Let's clear something up. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #474

find one example BainsBane Feb 2013 #478

Juvenile insults like "take your posts to a shrink" or "That is delusional"? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #476

you clearly misunderstood BainsBane Feb 2013 #477

What does "Using your tenure as a juror to insult fellow members" mean? muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #479

You used that experience as a juror BainsBane Feb 2013 #480

At least you accept I have not insulted you in any way. muriel_volestrangler Feb 2013 #481

This is the best response in this thread Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #173

actually, there is a rebirth to the feminist movement with our young of both genders. so your seabeyond Feb 2013 #177

There is no re-birth and only delusional Feminists believe Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #190

like there is any expectation of you being knowledge about the subject, having invested a single seabeyond Feb 2013 #204

Angry men have checked out and so have the passive men Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #213

your post is beyond silly.... find that harmony dude, feels good, truly. nt seabeyond Feb 2013 #219

Dude = passive aggressive attack like saying "chick" or "babe". Bonobo Feb 2013 #229

no, it does not. dude/dudette. in your movies. hey dude.... calif time. seabeyond Feb 2013 #233

Dude is a friendly term. Mock outrage. bettyellen Feb 2013 #247

Would these be examples of how you use it in a "friendly way"? Bonobo Feb 2013 #252

As a passive male I refuse to help Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #232

dont want your help. really. if you do not have it in you, who the fuck cares. BUT... do not seabeyond Feb 2013 #234

We don't need an invitation to help. Bonobo Feb 2013 #237

Because we have seen and heard men being passive and not helping? bettyellen Feb 2013 #254

Let's try a test. Bonobo Feb 2013 #257

The OP states she's over "the passivity" of men bettyellen Feb 2013 #355

Yes passive men are the problem, so are the aggressive men Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #243

we are not talking about you. again, no expectation. we are talking about the men that get it, seabeyond Feb 2013 #251

Infamy? WTF. funnier than dragging Beyonce into this. LOL bettyellen Feb 2013 #422

God, you are so juvenile. smirkymonkey Feb 2013 #494

It's absurdly reductionist. Anyone who can't see any choice but bettyellen Feb 2013 #182

What a disgusting and untrue statement. RiffRandell Feb 2013 #411

I really appreciate your post. Bonobo Feb 2013 #412

Says the man who posits we should be grateful for .... bettyellen Feb 2013 #431

Hmmm, lemme check... Bonobo Feb 2013 #435

Sure you did- got very upset I wasn't grateful for men's bettyellen Feb 2013 #438

Even one quote showing that would be nice. Bonobo Feb 2013 #440

The men who school us on tone have a problem accepting how whiney they come off. bettyellen Feb 2013 #441

Congrats! You have taken wackiness to a whole new level. Bonobo Feb 2013 #442

And you are stuck clinging to the notion that bettyellen Feb 2013 #444

So then you're saying that Ms Hensler's advice should be ignored. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #447

Damned if you do, damed if you don't... Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #451

all the talk about failed relationships and anger at random women is "reasonable discussion"? bettyellen Feb 2013 #483

That "talk" is your's or someone else's, not mine. Miss-post? Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #485

no, I was replying to your claim that men who lack the capability for empathy and support are bettyellen Feb 2013 #486

You still don't make sense. I made no claims of the nature you describe or conjure. Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #487

could you clarify this about what "new narrative" might be- if not asking for support and empathy... bettyellen Feb 2013 #488

Men are now expected to take an activist role when once they were expected to remain in the b.g. Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #489

if having common decency is "being an activist" (huh?) is way too much for ask then the good man bettyellen Feb 2013 #490

I've always believed if your values are strong enough... Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #491

Shrill, LOL. Smirks? You have quite the thin skin, and fevered imagination... but I knew that after bettyellen Feb 2013 #492

Guffaws not withstanding, do you want the T? Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #496

as I said before, empathy and support. your post is complete gibberish that has nothing to do with bettyellen Feb 2013 #482

I should have prefaced this with historically .... bettyellen Feb 2013 #424

I don't disagree bettyellen but life is more complicated. Threedifferentones Feb 2013 #423

It's not "more complicated", it's much simpler. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #425

I agree.. It was a sloppy post but in essence the roots of what he asks bettyellen Feb 2013 #428

I read an article by a feminist suggesting the same thing Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #189

Prepare yourself Bonobo Feb 2013 #193

You make assumptions Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #202

You mistook my intent. Bonobo Feb 2013 #206

I see now, thank you Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #208

No problem at all. nt Bonobo Feb 2013 #215

It's great that you are now aware a shitty role was handed to you... bettyellen Feb 2013 #291

Where are we? theKed Feb 2013 #21

The friend zone. Where good guys go to die. nt EastKYLiberal Feb 2013 #23

how dare a woman seabeyond Feb 2013 #27

I thought only HS boys skulked around girls they do not want to be friends with ..... bettyellen Feb 2013 #30

You have got to be kidding me. redqueen Feb 2013 #118

ohhh, redqueen. say it sister. that is a very concise, clear way to explain it. seabeyond Feb 2013 #121

This thread is unbelievable. ismnotwasm Feb 2013 #141

unbelievable in a number of ways. damn it is not so tough, seabeyond Feb 2013 #144

That's not really what "friend zoned" means.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #136

What do you think it means? redqueen Feb 2013 #245

No, you already 'splained it for us cavemen.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #249

Aw, pobrecito. redqueen Feb 2013 #261

"Also, tv sitcom meme? WTF are you talking about?" ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #275

LOL, it says a lot that a bad joke from a bad sitcom would be flogged to death for decades redqueen Feb 2013 #282

LOL indeed ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #293

Oh, but they most definitely are misogynist fucks! redqueen Feb 2013 #296

I'm sort of confused as to who's taking this seriously? ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #303

lol... "dropped some knowledge"... yeah, thanks for Googling it redqueen Feb 2013 #307

I'm sorry ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #365

"Oh shit, now I've done it." redqueen Feb 2013 #376

It's okay.... ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #379

Your behavior here is cruel and arrogant. GaYellowDawg Feb 2013 #333

I've had countless discussions about this issue... (the 'joke that no one takes seriously) according redqueen Feb 2013 #335

Hm. GaYellowDawg Feb 2013 #339

Thank you. redqueen Feb 2013 #345

I think you were more right the first time hfojvt Feb 2013 #352

That isn't assuming jack shit about single men. redqueen Feb 2013 #382

"Lonely people who feel cheated? That's entitlement. No one is owed a romantic relationship." ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #383

I've never met a woman who felt cheated by not having a relationship. redqueen Feb 2013 #384

you use the word cheated hfojvt Feb 2013 #439

A great post ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #367

Memes don't always keep the same meaning that sufrommich Feb 2013 #330

People also don't know how to use the word "momentarily" correctly ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #366

ROFL...perfect! I thought the "nice guy / friend zone" thing was by now so universally mocked alcibiades_mystery Feb 2013 #196

You would think so, right? At least here... redqueen Feb 2013 #248

I didn't realize it was up to men to save all the women. Sirveri Feb 2013 #24

Veiled hostility and resentment.... bettyellen Feb 2013 #29

+1 obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #31

WTF kind of response does he expect- explicit permission to look the other way? bettyellen Feb 2013 #32

Oh, so women are strong enough to protect themselves? Sirveri Feb 2013 #66

It's irrelevant what women are CitizenPatriot Feb 2013 #123

If you don't want to listen and hear, then don't. seabeyond Feb 2013 #145

I've noticed that people who say they don't care CitizenPatriot Feb 2013 #262

yes. i do not often come into these threads any more. i got sucked in. seabeyond Feb 2013 #269

I get sucked in all of the time, too CitizenPatriot Feb 2013 #274

+1 Gormy Cuss Feb 2013 #316

You really believe on these pathetic stereotypes? bettyellen Feb 2013 #124

I resent the notion that women can't accomplish anything without men. Sirveri Feb 2013 #138

It's a given we have accomplished a ton with, historically bettyellen Feb 2013 #165

+1. Men are going to have to start having a conversation with other men to address their feelings. WCLinolVir Feb 2013 #185

8 months preg, amarillo texas, at an auction house with a hundred people. seabeyond Feb 2013 #197

At least one man here acknowledged he learned his old school sex role from Dad... bettyellen Feb 2013 #341

No... FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #184

exactly. nt seabeyond Feb 2013 #212

The surest way to make women capable of "fighting their own battles" burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #230

amazingly excellent post.... thank you. nt seabeyond Feb 2013 #235

Very well said, but those angry at women will avoid responding bettyellen Feb 2013 #343

You have totally missed the point Dash87 Feb 2013 #107

+1 Elegantly put Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #199

This message was self-deleted by its author Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #25

well, speaking for myself, Eve hfojvt Feb 2013 #36

Is every single post from men here going to be self centered? bettyellen Feb 2013 #39

I know hfojvt Feb 2013 #41

If you're not getting any its because this whiney piss poor attitude bettyellen Feb 2013 #42

"getting any". Bonobo Feb 2013 #45

Oh please, you're the one suggesting we owe men some sort of debt for bettyellen Feb 2013 #68

So the truth comes out Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #191

It is called accidentally revealing yourself. nt Bonobo Feb 2013 #198

bah hahahahah. you bad feminist, you have RUINED our society. now, where do we hear this talk? seabeyond Feb 2013 #222

You're not making any sense. bettyellen Feb 2013 #371

we could make this about you? hfojvt Feb 2013 #46

Why would I react as if this was about me? I'm not so self centered or paranoid. bettyellen Feb 2013 #73

I sincerely hope that you get some help to deal with these issues. WCLinolVir Feb 2013 #168

that's a very sexist comment datasuspect Feb 2013 #280

I was responding to a post bemoaning not getting any.... bettyellen Feb 2013 #284

Self-centered in the sense that we're telling you that the OP is wrong about us. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #48

Yes, is it, when the OP is about crticizing men. MicaelS Feb 2013 #65

Push back with sad stories about how random women weren't kind to you? Seriously? bettyellen Feb 2013 #167

i dunno. i am thinking a woman being raped would be at least level playing field with angst. seabeyond Feb 2013 #178

It's really odd that some guys feel these anecdotes mean anything. bettyellen Feb 2013 #183

That's what happens when you tell a person what they think... MellowDem Feb 2013 #115

The original post is a whine about Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #224

it is called common decency not gender specific. let go of the white knight and you are a step seabeyond Feb 2013 #231

Common decency went out the window Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #250

how easily SOME men can chuck oh, common decency, standing up for fellow man, ect... seabeyond Feb 2013 #255

So you're not in favor of common decency but harbor illusions bettyellen Feb 2013 #258

Ms Henslers' quote is a demand for chivalry. nt lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #405

I dont see it as... actslikeacarrot Feb 2013 #313

+1,000,000,000 Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #281

Why don't the men in this thread get this? gollygee Feb 2013 #40

Why don't the women on this thread get it? hfojvt Feb 2013 #43

it was the women that pushed and pushed to make prison rape jokes NOT acceptable on du, by men seabeyond Feb 2013 #49

Here, let me help YOU get this. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #52

I wouldn't be at all offended by that gollygee Feb 2013 #54

my reply. DAMN STRAIGHT AND YOU GOT IT. seabeyond Feb 2013 #55

Both you and gollygee don't understand "Bill's" point. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #56

i do not agree. nt seabeyond Feb 2013 #57

I also disagree. nt gollygee Feb 2013 #59

Well then maybe it would be appropriate to ask Eve which kind of guys she's not yelling at. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #60

You're really overthinking this FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #200

But that's not what she said. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #297

She's over the passivity. Noun verb noun. bettyellen Feb 2013 #359

Not at all. I'm not stupid enough to mistake a critique on our culture bettyellen Feb 2013 #70

I disagree. n/t lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #72

+1 Starry Messenger Feb 2013 #74

+10000 noiretextatique Feb 2013 #80

I would say most men take it personally. Not some. redqueen Feb 2013 #119

I think most are too smart to take it personally but.., bettyellen Feb 2013 #125

Yeah, maybe the ones who don't take it personally are just more likely to keep their mouths shut. redqueen Feb 2013 #127

More than a few have an axe to grind because some random woman bettyellen Feb 2013 #130

Loss of entitlement does explain a lot of it. redqueen Feb 2013 #132

backlash. this is what this decade is all about. nt seabeyond Feb 2013 #146

Equating irritation with obnoxious OP with Republican's movement against reproductive rights? Bonobo Feb 2013 #149

you interpret it so narrowly as " OP with Republican's movement against"? fine. seabeyond Feb 2013 #151

You said backlash. You said of the last decade. Bonobo Feb 2013 #152

i am certainly saying that we have men on the democratic board that have sexist/misogynist seabeyond Feb 2013 #154

Backlash is what the past 3 decades have been all about n/t Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #155

i think the 70'a and 80's. part of 90's were progressively moving forward. i think mid 90's seabeyond Feb 2013 #160

I don't know Seabeyond... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #164

i do see a lot of change. hate and anger that was not there in the past. feelings of not needed, seabeyond Feb 2013 #180

I think the hatred and anger Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #192

we disagree. i think with independence and freedoms and choice, came the anger like we hadnt seen. seabeyond Feb 2013 #226

We agree on that... Sekhmets Daughter Feb 2013 #241

I took "men" in the OP to mean "men who aren't speaking out," Dash87 Feb 2013 #109

That was the intent of the quote in the OP. However, some on this thread are taking it all the way.. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #221

yes... we have some men taking it to mean ALL men, regardless how many times people tell them seabeyond Feb 2013 #238

Ms Ensler is the only one able to explain what she meant. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #292

no. it was buzz clik that said it. nt seabeyond Feb 2013 #306

"people" aren't in a position to "tell us otherwise". Only Ms Ensler. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #321

then correct buzz. he called out women saying SOME women were saying ALL men. that is wrong. SOME seabeyond Feb 2013 #322

No, the OP and Ms Ensler are the ones saying all (good) men. n/t lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #323

, some on this thread are taking it all the way..... to mean all men. seabeyond Feb 2013 #326

That's what the OP says. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #327

No, you're misinterpreting Ensler...if you were familiar with her work, you'd know that. bettyellen Feb 2013 #338

I'll never be familiar enough with *anyone* to substitute my own words for theirs. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #342

She clearly says she's over "the passivity" and not any or "all men" bettyellen Feb 2013 #348

Yes it could. On a more pragmatic level, imagine how much more productive this thread would have Hosnon Feb 2013 #372

It would still have been derailed by the whining over their poor relations bettyellen Feb 2013 #375

Yes, but think of how much popcorn they've sold. joeunderdog Feb 2013 #390

Comparison fail FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #187

Interestingly, some women on this thread are using the same argument. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #214

Then why aren't YOU driven to madness and action? lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #294

+1!!! Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #209

Your offense, maybe FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #265

Who thinks they speak for everyone? What a bizarre comment. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #336

Well said n/t Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #287

This thread is a testament to the quote being "rhetorically counterproductive". nt. Hosnon Feb 2013 #370

I am serious about this: consider the quality of the men with whom you associate. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #78

Why are you assuming this is about men with whom I associate? gollygee Feb 2013 #82

"or expect a cookie" Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #86

It feels like men are saying gollygee Feb 2013 #91

Associate with? Please, I have briefly socialized and worked with dozens of assholes who say and bettyellen Feb 2013 #84

In the context of the post to which I replied: Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #87

So "not giving you a cookie" = fuck off? LOL bettyellen Feb 2013 #89

Thank you for being predictable. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #90

"Even where problems do not exist" gollygee Feb 2013 #92

first he says it is so prevalent he would have little time to do anything else. now there is no seabeyond Feb 2013 #148

Yes, Buzz said he sees no sexism ever, then he does, now it's "no problem"... bettyellen Feb 2013 #172

ah, well we had a really stupid rape joke pass muster with jury just last night. seabeyond Feb 2013 #181

Pathetic dodge, even more predictable... bettyellen Feb 2013 #93

We finally hit the bottom line. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #97

In a million years you wouldn't have the nerve to demand bettyellen Feb 2013 #100

Out of the park, once again. redqueen Feb 2013 #120

There is soooo much WTF in this thread! bettyellen Feb 2013 #122

The coddling has gone on for a very, very long time. redqueen Feb 2013 #129

And there goes the sexist "coddling" statement again. Bonobo Feb 2013 #140

Boom. Starry Messenger Feb 2013 #134

Over 40 yrs., and the same approach. But the power & glory of righteousness... Eleanors38 Feb 2013 #452

Post removed Post removed Feb 2013 #207

That's a broad brush, but I agree that SOME are like that. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #216

Some... where? Do you mean feminists here in DU? nt redqueen Feb 2013 #279

Some here at DU. Some on this thread. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #337

"Feminists view all men as the enemy... the sooner some men grasp this the sooner the movement dies" redqueen Feb 2013 #276

Talk about the emperors new clothes! WCLinolVir Feb 2013 #228

you finally acknowledge you hear this shit all the fuckin time and if you bothered you would have seabeyond Feb 2013 #147

Somebody on this thread said it doesn't happen? Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #153

There seems to be an assumption that all men hear (or particpate in) rape jokes. Not true. DisgustipatedinCA Feb 2013 #81

Why when you hear the word "men" does it mean "all men" to you? gollygee Feb 2013 #83

Great post. About a week ago, I was having lunch with a group and one guy was saying how raccoon Feb 2013 #157

Thank YOU! smirkymonkey Feb 2013 #495

I stopped a rape. Bonobo Feb 2013 #44

no. you used war as an example of male "protective" to their death. rape used as a tool of war seabeyond Feb 2013 #51

Me too, and I've admonished bosses for racist remarks, but I would never bettyellen Feb 2013 #88

Betty, look again at the title of the OP. Bonobo Feb 2013 #98

Because its not about you? And it's not exclusively about rape or bettyellen Feb 2013 #105

Here's what I think. Bonobo Feb 2013 #106

Again Bo- lets make this ALL about your bruised ego. bettyellen Feb 2013 #128

Post removed Post removed Feb 2013 #225

because many men get it and know it is not at them personally. because when we were asked the same seabeyond Feb 2013 #150

SOME men protect women as much as they can. Some others are the ones women need to be protected FROM raccoon Feb 2013 #159

There is no useful purpose served by telling the members of the other gender what they think. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #47

Crime rates in general have gone down gollygee Feb 2013 #50

or, redefinition of rape allowed rates to go down and police force across the nation downgrading seabeyond Feb 2013 #53

Do you have any evidence that rape trends are not going down? lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #58

yes. i have showed documentation so fuckin may times. seabeyond Feb 2013 #63

You've misunderstood. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #67

No, you haven't. Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #99

bullshit. what a fuckin game you play, always. all it was were articles from newspapers across the seabeyond Feb 2013 #102

It's not a game. You're alleging that there is a widespread law enforcement conspiracy Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #104

yes, game. articles. that is all it was, articles. and you play games. here are links.... seabeyond Feb 2013 #108

From your first link: Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #112

Police departments go to great lengths to look good on the UCR, the FBI�...federal funding is determ seabeyond Feb 2013 #113

So your assertion is that the stats are manipulated *more than* they were 30 years ago. Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #135

"Adjusted crime rates" has to do with a change in data collection methodology Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #61

Thank you! nt gollygee Feb 2013 #95

Which means that MORE rapes would be reported since 1993 under the "adjustment", not fewer. Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #101

Again, crime IN GENERAL has declined gollygee Feb 2013 #143

Absolutely. I believe it's part of that larger trend, too. Warren DeMontague Feb 2013 #286

That is correct. Jackpine Radical Feb 2013 #404

The table is posted without source notes & context. burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #264

. lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #290

I think one can only speak to their own experiences Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #64

We must celebrate you or else you'll be a jackass? You know what that means? bettyellen Feb 2013 #76

He didn't say that. Buzz Clik Feb 2013 #79

You are right Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #111

This just makes me ill gollygee Feb 2013 #156

lots of "tells" in this post, YET, we are suppose to be empathetic. nt seabeyond Feb 2013 #161

lol Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #169

Society puts up the bad boy image, and that seems to be what the women fawn over. seabeyond Feb 2013 #186

huh? Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #211

Hell no Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #163

You see people get raped nightly but you don't do anything about it? gollygee Feb 2013 #166

Don't spend much time in bars I take it Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #171

"Getting in that woman's pants" and "raping" are two different things gollygee Feb 2013 #174

No point Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #179

You're point is some men look the other way because they're resentful that some women make foolish bettyellen Feb 2013 #210

hilarious Lurker Deluxe Feb 2013 #217

You want us to believe you were proxy posting for other men.... bettyellen Feb 2013 #266

"Sit down and shut up" is my default position on threads of this kind. Laelth Feb 2013 #253

This whole thread is full of stomach churning sufrommich Feb 2013 #332

interesting obamanut2012 Feb 2013 #158

and why aren't some women, especially in red states also not outraged. I say this because many of still_one Feb 2013 #103

For the same reason good women are passive nt MellowDem Feb 2013 #114

This message was self-deleted by its author seabeyond Feb 2013 #116

Yeah, it's all women's fault, LOL bettyellen Feb 2013 #131

Who said that? Unless you think the OP is saying it's all men's fault... nt MellowDem Feb 2013 #218

The enormity of the issue of rape is simply not on most men's radar. redqueen Feb 2013 #133

This thread is a paradox ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #137

Look at #20 and the response I got. Bonobo Feb 2013 #139

You nailed it in #203 ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #240

It's hard to think of a better way to alienate people that are already allies. nt Bonobo Feb 2013 #242

The good news is, I still believe it to be a small minority ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #244

allies? like starting a thread about not being able to call your daughter baby? seabeyond Feb 2013 #260

NOWHERE in that OP do I say she was a feminist. Bonobo Feb 2013 #270

thru out the thread, without a challenge of wrong, to be heard. seabeyond Feb 2013 #272

Like I said,I did NOT call out feminists and I don't see why you make it about you. Bonobo Feb 2013 #278

You are being dishonest, sea ProudToBeBlueInRhody Feb 2013 #300

Yes it is indeed Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #256

This message was self-deleted by its author Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #142

There is no benefit to meaningfully engage or commit in any way to a female galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #162

You want no engagement or commitment unless the person is dependent on you? bettyellen Feb 2013 #175

lol. it seems like you are projecting some frustration. galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #188

You said engagement and commitment aren't worth it if the woman is not depending on the man. bettyellen Feb 2013 #236

I am finding it to be that committment only comes when they are dependent on you Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #220

yes some men are saying this, but does not make a lick of sense. if men have checked out, then why seabeyond Feb 2013 #176

whoa! I just said it isn't in a mans best interest to marry. galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #195

LOL, it doesn't matter. Bonobo Feb 2013 #203

The "all men" canard.... Ridiculous. bettyellen Feb 2013 #340

no. that is not all that you said. nt seabeyond Feb 2013 #246

I don't give a damn if you "commit to a female" or not. burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #239

No offense, but I hope you never have children. WCLinolVir Feb 2013 #267

hey... leave my almost 18 yr old son alone, lol seabeyond Feb 2013 #271

None taken. 2 very smart and aware sons. galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #392

As a passive male Harmony Blue Feb 2013 #170

nah, that crazy talk cant reinforce the double standard dont ya know. galileoreloaded Feb 2013 #201

I was the same way Harmony Blue Puzzledtraveller Feb 2013 #205

We are all around you. RC Feb 2013 #259

i am sorry you are not appreciated. sucky feeling i am sure. nt seabeyond Feb 2013 #263

Again. All the conduct you have referred to burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #273

And that isn't just a man thing. polly7 Feb 2013 #308

You get it. RC Feb 2013 #325

Thank You, Thank You, Thank You! Sissyk Feb 2013 #360

"You do not see our actions as expressions of Love" lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #324

Precisely what is wrong with too many RC Feb 2013 #331

Here's one woman who goes by the ACTIONS not the words. I'm sure there are plenty others. nt raccoon Feb 2013 #350

k&DUrec n/t JTFrog Feb 2013 #268

I know good men FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #277

+1. The problem with generalizations like this OP is that only one counterexample proves them wrong. Nye Bevan Feb 2013 #285

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing" Gormy Cuss Feb 2013 #381

such a very right on, respectful and hopeful post. thank you. seabeyond Feb 2013 #289

With all due respect... lumberjack_jeff Feb 2013 #295

I really don't think so. FightForMichigan Feb 2013 #298

This is just the post the thread needed burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #299

i even think you can address a wrong without being judgmental. seabeyond Feb 2013 #310

I'm not sure. burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #318

but you are judging the act.... and that does incur the penalty or repercussion. my point is.... seabeyond Feb 2013 #320

Very,very well said. nt sufrommich Feb 2013 #334

+1000 Sissyk Feb 2013 #362

That woman should spend some time on DU, where there are PLENTY of good men Nye Bevan Feb 2013 #283

So long as she avoids any discussions of the most common type of rape. redqueen Feb 2013 #302

Be careful what you wish for, Eve ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2013 #301

Again, the conversation goes back to personal relationships burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #319

Thank you. nt redqueen Feb 2013 #328

but she demanded a more emotional response from men ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2013 #344

It's not just within the context of personal relationships... bettyellen Feb 2013 #351

Bringing an "emotional response" to burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #368

i have 50 shades of questions, ChairmanAgnostic Feb 2013 #386

secretly thrive ... acts within 50 Shades, including stuff that appears to be without consent. RAPE seabeyond Feb 2013 #387

Oh FFS. redqueen Feb 2013 #389

menz are so confused with rape. some girls, at some time, have said no and they really wanted it seabeyond Feb 2013 #391

It's so difficult... Agschmid Feb 2013 #394

Yeah... "mixed signals"... consent is so haaaard to understand... redqueen Feb 2013 #400

Alerted on... Agschmid Feb 2013 #393

it is fuckin' in meta. fuckin' sick shit. sorry. this gets me shaking when we have someone seabeyond Feb 2013 #395

Whether they say it aloud or not the real problem is... Agschmid Feb 2013 #396

"if people on DU think it... imagine the rest of the world." redqueen Feb 2013 #397

Regardless of what a woman purchases for her pleasure, it's never appropriate to assume msanthrope Feb 2013 #401

Humans have the gift of speech which can be used MadrasT Feb 2013 #403

So you haven't read the book and you aren't sure what it actually says yardwork Feb 2013 #409

wow. fishwax Feb 2013 #443

Perhaps they are not "thriving" on the crimes depicted in the book. burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #445

the line is clear: consent BainsBane Feb 2013 #399

Post removed Post removed Feb 2013 #406

I'm thoroughly entertained burnsei sensei Feb 2013 #446

Your misentertained BainsBane Feb 2013 #448

K&R Solly Mack Feb 2013 #304

a thought provoking quote. actslikeacarrot Feb 2013 #312

honest. true. and recognized. my boys and i have had many conversations seabeyond Feb 2013 #317

Respectful question for the women standing behind the quote in the OP... Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #353

Because we're supposed to take it for granted self identifying liberals support us? bettyellen Feb 2013 #356

So your answer is no? Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #357

Because they misread the OP saying she's over men and not the passivity. bettyellen Feb 2013 #358

Thanks, I think you answered my question. n/t Demo_Chris Feb 2013 #361

You're welcome! I think both responses were valid.... bettyellen Feb 2013 #363

Blah blah, so tiresome from women like these. Shallow drivel LittleBlue Feb 2013 #364

And men like these... redqueen Feb 2013 #385

And men like those! LittleBlue Feb 2013 #388

That Delphinus Feb 2013 #407

THAT.... Benton D Struckcheon Feb 2013 #408

And sitting on a fence hurts the crotch! Middle of the road has dead skunks!!! bettyellen Feb 2013 #420

Post removed Post removed Feb 2013 #429

Something's wrong when pol's worry only about losing women's votes DirkGently Feb 2013 #426

what an excellent post, and all in the thinking about it. can i be an ally. support your voice seabeyond Feb 2013 #427

Thank you for getting it bettyellen Feb 2013 #432

Great post! YoungDemCA Feb 2013 #470

Sorry I haven't responded to this yet, but chemos been kicking my ass. Evoman Feb 2013 #475

well said! bettyellen Feb 2013 #484