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MadHound

(34,179 posts)
Sun Apr 21, 2013, 02:16 PM Apr 2013

My how things have changed. [View all]

This past week we saw just how our civil liberties have been tossed out the window. We saw multiple houses raided, without cause, without warrant. We saw an entire community essentially put under martial law, though it went by the kinder, gentler term of "shelter in place". Now, we are seeing the spectacle of a suspect, who is being arrested for a crime, being denied his Miranda rights due to something new in the past few years, the Public Safety Exception.

Worse than all this is the willing, even cowed acceptance of all of this. People are saying that this was a special circumstance, but the fact of the matter is that if our civil liberties don't apply in the most extreme of circumstance, they simply won't apply in even normal circumstances.

Did we see any of this on display during the OKC bombing, Ruby Ridge, Waco? No, because such concepts were foreign to our conception of law enforcement. Yes, the Public Safety exception was in play, but in very limited form, certainly not we're seeing now, a forty eight hour free pass to grill a suspect about any and everything. Shelter in place was meant as a suggestion that one should follow in the case of bad weather or release of a hazardous material, not as a method to lockdown an entire community so that a house to house set of raids could take place. And those raids themselves are based on a radically expanded definition of the legal concept of "exigent circumstance", a concept that was originally intended to be used when a suspect is being hotly pursued, but now has been morphed into allowing the police to take their time, going door to door, for hours on end.

All of these attacks on our civil liberties have taken place in the last twelve years since 9/11. Our fear, our panic has allowed the state to seize these liberties and so many others. This was exactly what was on display last week, the triumph of the post 9/11 mindset, of what happens when our population tries to make the devil's deal of trading liberty for safety. Worse, with the triumphant rollout of these new concepts, they are going to continue to creep into our lives. How soon before there is a Public Safety exception applied to every crime? How soon before we see houses regularly searched under the Exigent Circumstances exception?

Perhaps, hopefully, with further reflection, the American public will demand that these civil liberties be returned. Sadly though, given our past history, I doubt it. The prevailing mood seems to be that the loss of civil liberties is somehow, someway justified, and if you're not a terrorist, why should you care. Perhaps people will finally start caring when these exceptions become the norm in our land. By then though, of course, it will be too late.

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My how things have changed. [View all] MadHound Apr 2013 OP
People will wrongly give up liberties to feel safer. And people 100% trust the Police/FBI. n-t Logical Apr 2013 #1
Actually there are large swathes of the population that don't trust law enforcement. MadHound Apr 2013 #5
So true. n-t Logical Apr 2013 #14
"And people 100% trust the Police/FBI" bvar22 Apr 2013 #136
Too much officer friendly shit and TV shows showing perfect cops. n-t Logical Apr 2013 #174
What's worse, there are those who will unnecessarily give up other people's liberties to feel safer. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #198
But..but..now were safe and our liberties are protected! Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #2
But..but...You don't live in Boston, do you? whathehell Apr 2013 #44
What's stopping them from "weighing in"? Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #88
Maybe they're out celebrating today, rather than pissing & moaning on the internet? whathehell Apr 2013 #91
Which is where you are. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #94
And where you are as well.. whathehell Apr 2013 #106
No, I'm not. Tierra_y_Libertad Apr 2013 #110
Nice spin, LOL. whathehell Apr 2013 #118
Aren't you pissing and moaning on the internet about people pissing and moaning about Civil sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #204
I was not as optimistic as you, we long ago gave up the fourth amendment for the drug war Fumesucker Apr 2013 #209
If that's what you call responding to "pissing and moaning", I guess so. whathehell Apr 2013 #214
It's not the actual methods while the suspects were still loose with bombs and weapons that sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #243
I understand you now, and yes, I agree, certainly insofar as his not being whathehell Apr 2013 #258
Yes, there are those concerns, that there may be others. And I agree with you. It's possible to be sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #265
Good. I'm glad, but not surprised to see that we're in agreement. whathehell Apr 2013 #269
+1000 DeSwiss Apr 2013 #130
But if we give up our freedoms demcoat Apr 2013 #157
The pro-police-state reaction here has been shameful. reformist2 Apr 2013 #3
"pro police state"? "shameful"? whathehell Apr 2013 #60
Perhaps you should do some research on what is and is not a police state. TwilightZone Apr 2013 #116
LOL! whathehell Apr 2013 #123
Thank you. Richardo Apr 2013 #235
the glurge-laden police fluffing here almost seems datasuspect Apr 2013 #4
It's likely both; it's paid for and people are that propagandized just1voice Apr 2013 #203
Option C--they know stuff you don't. Nt geek tragedy Apr 2013 #231
Yes. LWolf Apr 2013 #6
They have been steeped in Jack Baur "24" Dustlawyer Apr 2013 #145
No raids. No martial law. Citizens wanted to help police to do their jobs. nobodyspecial Apr 2013 #7
+1 CountAllVotes Apr 2013 #11
So, can we allow the police to question you without your Miranda rights in play, MadHound Apr 2013 #13
OH BULLSHIT Dreamer Tatum Apr 2013 #15
+10 whathehell Apr 2013 #40
Wow, that's Orwellian MadHound Apr 2013 #125
Not every police action is part of a conspiracy to erode civil liberties. Arkana Apr 2013 #149
Creepy, creepy, creepy words. woo me with science Apr 2013 #128
Said the person safe as a kitten. nt Dreamer Tatum Apr 2013 #131
Authoritarianism always wraps itself in "safety." nt woo me with science Apr 2013 #133
"The *next* time you get pulled over for a DUI or speeding ticket". westerebus Apr 2013 #36
What do Miranda rights have to do with speeding tickets? TwilightZone Apr 2013 #50
Once you have been pulled over, you are no longer a danger treestar Apr 2013 #74
I've had several speeding tickets in my 64 years, but no cop ever read me my Miranda rights. So what bornskeptic Apr 2013 #112
Miranda's for arrests. n/t DeSwiss Apr 2013 #132
Your problem was that you we not driving fast enough to get arrested. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #153
Yes there is a requirement if you are arrested. former9thward Apr 2013 #163
Nothing says Terrorists win like shutting down a city for ONE suspect. The next..... Logical Apr 2013 #16
For a 19-year-old punk. jsr Apr 2013 #86
Consider this alternate read of the situation: yewberry Apr 2013 #101
That makes too much sense. TwilightZone Apr 2013 #117
If that made sense, they would do that for the Banksters who caused more harm to Boston than the AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #156
Stay on topic, please. nt yewberry Apr 2013 #184
That's a far better & more realistic read, but much too positive for the sack cloth & ashes crowd whathehell Apr 2013 #162
Well Mojorabbit Apr 2013 #71
The fact that there were people clapping and cheering zeemike Apr 2013 #82
That was relief and/or appreciation. Not sporting joy. Union Scribe Apr 2013 #216
All true. As you said, though, they are ignoring the obvious if it doesn't fit their narrative. whathehell Apr 2013 #234
The situation in Boston is desperate, I agree Dreamer Tatum Apr 2013 #8
LOL, AFTER the safe harbor was lifted. Funny how that worked. n-t Logical Apr 2013 #17
Sure, because who doesn't want to take a stroll through an area with gunfire and bombs going off? whathehell Apr 2013 #30
Yes, they were going off all fucking day. LOL, keep trying. n-t Logical Apr 2013 #52
Ask the inured & the families of the dead if they would have waited "all fucking day" whathehell Apr 2013 #68
Jesus, notice how they CANCELLED it Friday when the asshat was STILL LOOSE! WHY? Why cancel it.... Logical Apr 2013 #76
Sure..Questions like this certainly outweigh values like lives saved and a killer captured, right? whathehell Apr 2013 #89
Once again, if the threat was there all day Friday, why was it not there Friday night? Wow, Logical Apr 2013 #93
Since you clearly don't do subtlety, let me put it in a manner you can understand.. whathehell Apr 2013 #102
Once again. No answer to the question. Let me know when you have one. n-t Logical Apr 2013 #104
Once again..It's a lame question whose answer, whatever it is, won't cut it for you, bro! whathehell Apr 2013 #113
I get it. You got nothing. Nice to see you also think it was silly! n-t Logical Apr 2013 #171
Aw, gee. I'm crushed especially since I DID did get an explanation, lame gage of the BPD as it is. whathehell Apr 2013 #181
I can't answer that, but it was great timing, wasn't it? bornskeptic Apr 2013 #119
Because they figured he'd lost enough blood to be weak and easy to take....and they were right. MADem Apr 2013 #135
Except people were ordered out of their homes. reformist2 Apr 2013 #19
Owell's 1984 Wellstone ruled Apr 2013 #9
More like Huxley's "Brave New World." n/t Ron Green Apr 2013 #21
They're easing us into it. CrispyQ Apr 2013 #10
Both of those existed before this treestar Apr 2013 #77
"liberal board" Some of us may be liberals but it is clear that many on this board are not. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #158
Who the hell is "they"? Who are these people who want to take away our civil liberties? lumpy Apr 2013 #161
"They" seem to include these guys: AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #199
TPTB, the 1%, the corporate elite, the Koch brothers, CrispyQ Apr 2013 #249
Hmmmm GitRDun Apr 2013 #12
there is always an armed killer in your area datasuspect Apr 2013 #32
Oh, please.. whathehell Apr 2013 #38
now you're overcompensating datasuspect Apr 2013 #42
Sure....Anyone with eight posts hidden in 90 days can surely read minds whathehell Apr 2013 #120
Um, no, I don't think so. whathehell Apr 2013 #75
magic puppy delusion land datasuspect Apr 2013 #79
Oh, so that's where you live! whathehell Apr 2013 #95
yeah, i know datasuspect Apr 2013 #100
Lame, bro, very lame. whathehell Apr 2013 #103
cool post bro datasuspect Apr 2013 #111
I'll leave you to the "data". whathehell Apr 2013 #114
Truth. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #160
Is there a kinder, gentler way to search for a terrorist on the loose? mzmolly Apr 2013 #18
Well good for you. I hope you would respect your neighbor's right to keep the door shut. reformist2 Apr 2013 #23
Convenient for terrorists to say "don't allow a search, or else" in your scenario, mzmolly Apr 2013 #27
#54. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #202
#205 mzmolly Apr 2013 #206
You mean respect their right... gcomeau Apr 2013 #46
Indeed whathehell Apr 2013 #33
Agreed. mzmolly Apr 2013 #43
In terms of paranoia whathehell Apr 2013 #238
I agree with your last mzmolly Apr 2013 #259
Thanks. whathehell Apr 2013 #261
Agreed, mzmolly Apr 2013 #262
Ridiculous. distantearlywarning Apr 2013 #20
Post removed Post removed Apr 2013 #29
Must be board or looking for attention. nobodyspecial Apr 2013 #47
+1000 Bobbie Jo Apr 2013 #192
Actually... this past week I saw a small town in Texas completely destroyed. ScreamingMeemie Apr 2013 #22
Thank you! Newest Reality Apr 2013 #24
This: "we use phrases as we choose and define or expand their meaning as we choose to". CrispyQ Apr 2013 #239
Thanks for the link and response. Newest Reality Apr 2013 #244
I really can't blame the rank and file policeman or other government employee for this. Cleita Apr 2013 #25
"We saw houses raided" Uh, no, we didn't. MineralMan Apr 2013 #26
Thanks for the thoughtful mzmolly Apr 2013 #28
Don't let the facts get in the way of a hyperbolic rant. emulatorloo Apr 2013 #31
I saw a house raided on youtube. The residents really had no choice. reformist2 Apr 2013 #56
Link? MineralMan Apr 2013 #59
Oh please. Most people don't think clearly with guns pointed all over. Anyway, the video: reformist2 Apr 2013 #64
Well that was no friendly may we come in and look around. Mojorabbit Apr 2013 #81
they shut up after you posted the video datasuspect Apr 2013 #87
It? MineralMan Apr 2013 #187
i don't know your gender datasuspect Apr 2013 #188
Right. MineralMan is confusing. MineralMan Apr 2013 #191
Yep, four cops show up on your front porch sylvi Apr 2013 #193
Looks like a drug bust to me. That is an awful lot of adult males for one household alphafemale Apr 2013 #232
I saw several videos. In this one, everyone who came out of the MineralMan Apr 2013 #254
I wonder what the cops would do in that situation mokawanis Apr 2013 #63
Um, yes, we did see them raid homes. Utube is often used now by citizens to record events that might sabrina 1 Apr 2013 #247
See my #254. MineralMan Apr 2013 #255
"if you're not a terrorist, why should you care". That pretty much sums up our society madinmaryland Apr 2013 #34
I have yet to hear of one resident in Watertown who is facing any charges morningfog Apr 2013 #35
What is that Ben Franklin quote? cwydro Apr 2013 #37
Of course, Ben Franklin never had to deal with some asshole putting a pressure cooker bomb at his MADem Apr 2013 #134
Actually, I think that is now a Dick Cheney quote. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #164
One of the arguments gun nuts use is "You can't depend on the police"... Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #39
The police themselves say that. nt Mojorabbit Apr 2013 #84
According to the gun nuts. Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #96
Here you go and for the record I am not a gun "nut" Mojorabbit Apr 2013 #99
Show me a big city police chief saying people should arm themselves because the cops are useless. Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #107
I only gave you a reference that did not come from an average joe Mojorabbit Apr 2013 #189
Like a "bought judge" is unheard of. Spitfire of ATJ Apr 2013 #196
Nothing changed. No civil liberties were tossed. gcomeau Apr 2013 #41
The Unbearable Lightness of Being agent46 Apr 2013 #45
When even Manny Goldstein and WillyT nobodyspecial Apr 2013 #48
bullshit (nm) smackd Apr 2013 #49
You don't live in Boston, do ya? cliffordu Apr 2013 #51
+1 FailureToCommunicate Apr 2013 #108
its just a reversion to the mean. galileoreloaded Apr 2013 #53
The long view is rarely popular agent46 Apr 2013 #55
i'm gonna get my kicks in datasuspect Apr 2013 #58
Does this give you warm and fuzzy feelings: avebury Apr 2013 #54
(1) No. (2) It wasn't. (3) If the police had probable cause to assault the house in force (and AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #166
How do you know it wasn't voluntary? mzmolly Apr 2013 #205
I don't know why you pretend Boston was under martial law. Rex Apr 2013 #57
But hey....doesn't it sound...DRAMATIC? MADem Apr 2013 #138
If the "police of greater Boston fulfilled the "To Protect And Serve" role pretty well," maybe some AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #167
Boston's a blue city, and not to put too fine a point on it, the Commonwealth of Massachusetts MADem Apr 2013 #211
Of course the community wanted them caught. Why shouldn't they have wanted that? AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #224
You come to Watertown and mouth off like that. MADem Apr 2013 #225
You're a Watertown or Mass resident and you say something as silly and inane as that? AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #227
You've got the market on "silly and inane" cornered. I don't have to "bully" you--you're a MADem Apr 2013 #228
You " 'don't' have to bully"? Actually, you can try but nobody bullies me. Not you. Not anyone. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #241
That was a suggestion, not a threat. MADem Apr 2013 #257
What is wrong with you? AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #263
By your behavior I shall know you--and your behavior in this MADem Apr 2013 #264
Because I think what you say is unrelated to the facts and you're nuts, I'm putting you on ignore. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #267
Hurrah! Don't go away mad...! Just go away, and all that. nt MADem Apr 2013 #268
I think this is the first time I've ever seen people mad Rex Apr 2013 #172
+1,000 nt MADem Apr 2013 #207
I expect LE to act like this in most every major city under similar circumstances... egduj Apr 2013 #61
The breathe of the lock down was staggering jehop61 Apr 2013 #62
Ironically they didn't find him until the order was lifted alarimer Apr 2013 #65
Yep. With all their home invasions, the police didn't even find him! A civilian did. reformist2 Apr 2013 #66
A civilian who was at home keeping his eyes open why...? nt yewberry Apr 2013 #129
That is ironic treestar Apr 2013 #70
Yes, that magic word, woo me with science Apr 2013 #142
For the TSA to consider a person to be a possible criminal and terrorist based upon complaining, is AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #168
Adding, you would have preferred an endless barrage of "red alerts" followed by attacking mzmolly Apr 2013 #67
seriously... renegade000 Apr 2013 #109
LOL. mzmolly Apr 2013 #115
They were looking for a very dangerous person they knew was out there treestar Apr 2013 #69
you have the perfect attitude for 2013 galileoreloaded Apr 2013 #73
Yeah, well in the "good old days" youngsters were not buying machine guns xtraxritical Apr 2013 #72
Americans are lazy authoritarians whatchamacallit Apr 2013 #78
I was just reminding hubby that McVeigh was simply tried and convicted malaise Apr 2013 #80
You must be joking. Everything that happened in Boston was justified in my mind. geckosfeet Apr 2013 #83
What you said MadHound. zeemike Apr 2013 #85
Yes, I find our response to these tragedies Live and Learn Apr 2013 #90
If your house in on fire, are the firefighters breaking down your door trespassing? baldguy Apr 2013 #92
Oh, the propaganda brigade will not like this thread. woo me with science Apr 2013 #97
What civil rights were violated? SpartanDem Apr 2013 #122
That was so cute. nt woo me with science Apr 2013 #124
Well said. Best post on this thread. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #169
Looks like a great list of accomplishments jsr Apr 2013 #179
They sure don't like it, they're out in force insulting, abusing and hating the truth just1voice Apr 2013 #200
+100 nt Mojorabbit Apr 2013 #219
I'm ok with the curfew but am concerned about involuntary home searches. limpyhobbler Apr 2013 #98
I'm pretty sure the 4th Amendment had more to do with political persecutions... randome Apr 2013 #105
I thought it was people wanted to be able to hide things from the government. limpyhobbler Apr 2013 #127
It's always been legal SpartanDem Apr 2013 #150
Is it used very often? limpyhobbler Apr 2013 #159
I would say it is rare for door to door SpartanDem Apr 2013 #190
Benjamin Franklin Milliesmom Apr 2013 #121
Can't be posted often enough. woo me with science Apr 2013 #126
Benjamin Franklin thought we should stay a colony of England for the longest time, too. MADem Apr 2013 #213
For all the Police State Worshippers out there. Remember this? DeSwiss Apr 2013 #137
x2 AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #170
Are you incapable of both praise and criticism? Union Scribe Apr 2013 #218
I am..... DeSwiss Apr 2013 #229
BRAVO. But "civil liberties be returned"? Not likely, what with those "USA! USA!" cheers (p.i.). WinkyDink Apr 2013 #139
This is exactly how I feel. Our civil liberties have been so eroded since 9/11 and forestpath Apr 2013 #140
Video of people protesting the behavior of the Boston Police ... JoePhilly Apr 2013 #141
They look so oppressed! ellisonz Apr 2013 #178
Keep the citizenry scared and they will be obedient. TeamPooka Apr 2013 #143
Sure, these guys were actually just part of a "plan" by the PTB whathehell Apr 2013 #183
You are putting words in my mouth I did not claim or say Mr. Staw Man.... TeamPooka Apr 2013 #186
I'm sorry if I did that, it wasn't intentional, nonetheless, I'm not convinced that whathehell Apr 2013 #201
A Question (no slant) Rilgin Apr 2013 #144
Two predictions: (1) Some will say that "his actual rights" were "suspended." AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #173
It's none of those SpartanDem Apr 2013 #212
thanks and clarifying Rilgin Apr 2013 #221
Well, we can all count on ONE thing that will never change Summer Hathaway Apr 2013 #146
+1! sheshe2 Apr 2013 #245
The K-9 unit failed Chico Man Apr 2013 #147
Jesus Christ, do you HAVE an off button? Arkana Apr 2013 #148
That's important, if true. Please see #54. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #175
Welcome To Revolution - The Right Wing Revolution - Enjoy Remembering Those Freedoms cantbeserious Apr 2013 #151
If this occured in a red state sylvi Apr 2013 #152
This is why the founding fathers worried about political parties - people get way too attached. reformist2 Apr 2013 #155
+1000 forestpath Apr 2013 #165
This is simply ProSense Apr 2013 #154
Well said. But it does appear that a lot of people, even on this board, don't want you or anyone AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #176
Or may simply disagree with the premise... LanternWaste Apr 2013 #250
You are wrong in saying "we are indeed, living in a police state." You are also wrong in suggesting AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #256
Lovely rant. Now, you might have a point if you could show the people jeff47 Apr 2013 #177
Somebody still gets it: AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #180
+1000. A tour de force! reformist2 Apr 2013 #185
Wow, she recommends everyone to be armed nobodyspecial Apr 2013 #195
Wow, you had to deviate from the truth. Not a surprise. AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #197
What truth? nobodyspecial Apr 2013 #208
What deviation from the truth? You FALSLY said "she recommends everyone to be armed" AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #223
1st of all, she talks funny, snooper2 Apr 2013 #236
She never said "You're gonna NEED more than a butterknife". Beginning at 0:10 she described AnotherMcIntosh Apr 2013 #246
Are you kidding me? The American public will NEVER demand these civil liberties be returned. Zorra Apr 2013 #182
The erosion continues, uninterrupted sylvi Apr 2013 #194
the making of "All the Prseidents Men" is on now upi402 Apr 2013 #210
I can understand Miranda, but DonCoquixote Apr 2013 #215
+1 Union Scribe Apr 2013 #217
Thank God for the 2nd Amendment! bluedigger Apr 2013 #220
The weapon systems used by the military in the Middle East L.A.dweller Apr 2013 #222
I like you Madhound and we usually agree Marrah_G Apr 2013 #226
Factually false bleating. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #230
I had a rough weekend. Wait Wut Apr 2013 #252
The "trash thread" feature is underused. geek tragedy Apr 2013 #253
"originally intended to be used when a suspect is being hotly pursued" Triana Apr 2013 #233
Please come to Boston sheshe2 Apr 2013 #237
So, ah, what exactly have YOU given up here? graham4anything Apr 2013 #240
I'm expecting them to waterboard the subject once he recovers enough to endure it. L0oniX Apr 2013 #242
Good grief.. what exaggerated over-the-top nonsense. DCBob Apr 2013 #248
Message auto-removed Name removed Apr 2013 #251
K&R We need to return to the rule of law. End a never ending war midnight Apr 2013 #260
As a woman, I trade liberty for fucking safety every day of my life. El Fuego Apr 2013 #266
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