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Catherina

(35,568 posts)
93. "exceptionally grave damage" v "serious damage" if made public and means of collection
Thu Jun 20, 2013, 09:08 PM
Jun 2013

It's the difference between "exceptionally grave damage" to national security if made publicly available and "serious damage".
These documents are purely administrative and everything in them is either secret or unclassified except for one small part in Exhibit A.

This is the only thing in Exhibit A that's Top Secret. Notice that all of it is NoForn (No Foreigners) and restricted (SI)

Information contained in various NSA-maintained knowledge databases containing
foreign intelligence information acquired by any lawful means, such as electronic
surveillance, physical search, or the use of a pen register and trap or trace device, or
other information, reveals that the telephone number has been previously used by an
individual associated with a foreign power or foreign territory;

(TS//SI//NF) The NSA knowledge databases that would be used to satisfy this factor contain fused intelligence information concerning international terrorism culled from signals intelligence, human intelligence, law enforcement information and other sources. The information compiled in these databases is information that assists the signals intelligence system in effecting collection on intelligence targets. For example, a report produced by the CIA may include a fact that a known terrorist is using a telephone with a particular number. NSA would include that information in its knowledge in its knowledge databases.


I'm pretty sure it's because of the reference to means of collection, the pen registers & trap and trace devices. Both Bush and Obama had a lot of legal problems over the use of pen registers & trap and trace devices because they violate Federal law. They record information on all incoming and outgoing calls for a particular data line. These are what NSA was using to siphon "e-mail metadata and technical records of Skype calls from data links owned by AT&T, Sprint and MCI, which later merged with Verizon". There's speculation that it was over these that Goldsmith/Comey threatened to resign under Bush. Orin Kerr of Washington University Law Dept wrote something up about that here.

That's also the only place in the document were they mention the fused intelligence database which contains intelligence from multiple agencies within the Intelligence Community.

The ACLU has been very hot about the increasing use of pen registers & trap and trace devices and the DOJ repeatedly denied that they were using these without a warrant or in any inappropriate manner.

...

Federal law enforcement agents misled judges for years on what type of wiretaps they were carrying out when they requested permission for so-called “pen register” searches, an email obtained by the American Civil Liberties Union (ACLU) reveals.

Instead of collecting data on incoming and outgoing callers (among other general information), as “pen register” searches are intended to do, the ACLU said that agents commonly used a vehicle-mounted technology called the “stingray” that intercepts all nearby communications in order to pinpoint the location of a particular signal. The ACLU argues that these devices in effect resulted in a de facto wiretap, when that was not yet authorized.

A Freedom of Information Act Request (FOIA) filed by the ACLU returned a revealing email about the use of “stingrays” in law enforcement, showing the office of the United States Attorney for the Northern District of California warning agents to be more specific about the type of technology employed in pen register requests.

“As some of you may be aware, our office has been working closely with the magistrate judges in an effort to address their collective concerns regarding whether a pen register is sufficient to authorize the use of law enforcement’s WIT technology (a box that simulates a cell tower and can be placed inside a van to help pinpoint an individual’s location with some specificity) to locate an individual,” the email explained. “It has recently come to my attention that many agents are still using WIT technology in the field although the pen register application does not make that explicit.”

“While we continue work on a long term fix for this problem, it is important that we are consistent and forthright in our pen register requests to the magistrates,” the email concludes.

“In other words, the federal government was routinely using stingray technology in the field, but failing to ‘make that explicit’ in its applications to the court to engage in electronic surveillance,” ACLU staff attorney Linda Lye wrote in an advisory. “When the magistrate judges in the Northern District of California finally found out what was happening, they expressed ‘collective concerns,’ according to the emails.”

...

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2013/03/28/aclu-email-reveals-feds-misled-judges-to-abuse-wiretapping-powers/


And this just in, press release from the ACLU, is part of the serious damage

NSA Claims Broad Authority to Monitor Americans' International Calls and Emails

Agency Retains Purely Domestic Communications Without Warrants, Documents Show

June 20, 2013

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
CONTACT: 212-549-2666, media@aclu.org

NEW YORK – The government is engaged in warrantless surveillance of innocent Americans' international communications, according to secret FISA Court documents released today by The Guardian. Jameel Jaffer, American Civil Liberties Union deputy legal director, made the following comments about the latest revelations:

"After Congress enacted the FISA Amendments Act in 2008, we worried that the NSA would use the new authority to conduct warrantless surveillance of Americans' telephone calls and emails. These documents confirm many of our worst fears. The 'targeting' procedures indicate that the NSA is engaged in broad surveillance of Americans' international communications.

"The 'minimization' procedures that supposedly protect Americans' constitutional rights turn out to be far weaker than we imagined they could be
. For example, the NSA claims the authority to collect and disseminate attorney-client communications – and even, in some circumstances, to turn them over to Justice Department prosecutors. The government also claims the authority to retain Americans' purely domestic communications in certain situations."

ACLU Staff Attorney Alex Abdo said:

"Collectively, these documents show indisputably that the legal framework under which the NSA operates is far too feeble, that existing oversight mechanisms are ineffective, and that the government's surveillance policies now present a serious and ongoing threat to our constitutional rights. The release of these documents will help inform a crucial public debate that should have taken place years ago."

http://www.aclu.org/national-security/nsa-claims-broad-authority-monitor-americans-international-calls-and-emails


This is something where we'll need to trust the ACLU and not any of the self-annointed legal experts telling everyone to move on, nothing to see here, it's all legal.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

So, it is over a broader scope than just "Terra" Pholus Jun 2013 #1
+1 n/t Catherina Jun 2013 #27
False DallasNE Jun 2013 #144
That depends on your interpretation of 3(b)(4), 5(2) and 6(b)(8) of the document. Pholus Jun 2013 #145
You're Changing The Subject DallasNE Jun 2013 #154
I should have been more direct. Your "False" is false. Pholus Jun 2013 #165
What Is Not Said DallasNE Jun 2013 #173
Obviously no. Pholus Jun 2013 #175
Good Exchange DallasNE Jun 2013 #180
Yes, it was worthwhile. Pholus Jun 2013 #181
Every attorney who gives a shit about his or her ethical obligations to clients should HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #146
Section 4 says the right words Pholus Jun 2013 #149
is it a bird, is it a plane, no its supercatherina Monkie Jun 2013 #2
Sorry my friend. I just logged into my twitter feed and there it was Catherina Jun 2013 #10
this is _it_ there is no escaping this now, this is willful misinterpretation of the intent Monkie Jun 2013 #12
Wyden said this in '11: "secret interpretation" of the law MisterP Jun 2013 #156
And, I guess, some of the analysts work for Booz Allen which I hear is owned by the Carlyle byeya Jun 2013 #3
You nailed that part of it. We are paying for all of this and Bushco makes the profit n/t Catherina Jun 2013 #4
Thanks for the corroboration, as bad as the truth makes me feel. byeya Jun 2013 #7
In other words RobertEarl Jun 2013 #5
Or where John Edwards was going to meet his mistress, and Ellitiot Spitzer, and and and Catherina Jun 2013 #11
Not sure why these items would be that big a concern. randome Jun 2013 #6
I've decided to look on the bright side. Soviet jokes *were* falling out of fashion. Pholus Jun 2013 #8
I would bet the Bill of Rights would not apply to that parrot. randome Jun 2013 #13
Is extraordinary rendition off the books yet? Pholus Jun 2013 #15
"So. What're you in for, kid?" randome Jun 2013 #16
You asked for it... and it is old and crusty! Pholus Jun 2013 #18
Only two hours? The CIA advisor probably said, "Let's wrap this up." That always works with a mummy. randome Jun 2013 #20
:) Pholus Jun 2013 #22
so you two doing the classic derailment or you actually going to say anything on topic? Monkie Jun 2013 #25
Seriously, it's just gallows humor. Pholus Jun 2013 #30
yes malokvale77 Jun 2013 #53
Yep...clasic hijack zeemike Jun 2013 #78
I guess you'll have to explain that. Pholus Jun 2013 #98
Rationalizations are meant to be sufficient. zeemike Jun 2013 #102
I'll have to take that under advisement then. Pholus Jun 2013 #103
Re: Gallows Humor--its understandable KoKo Jun 2013 #123
Yup, that's the point. Pholus Jun 2013 #147
I accept your explanation as I have been iemitsu Jun 2013 #137
LOL Marrah_G Jun 2013 #143
because 3 of the points make a circular argument, breaking the seeming intent of the law Monkie Jun 2013 #9
Sure, 'inadvertently' could be claimed at any time, used as a loophole. randome Jun 2013 #14
data/content from a US machine, im sorry, if you cant see this there just is no hope for you Monkie Jun 2013 #19
"For the purposes of ceasing surveillance." randome Jun 2013 #24
"unless they contain usable intelligence" Monkie Jun 2013 #33
No, I don't. "Inadvertently acquired" is a key phrase. randome Jun 2013 #37
so this "Inadvertently acquired" is that a key phrase or a loophole? Monkie Jun 2013 #58
It can be both. randome Jun 2013 #61
You're much more optimistic than I am Jarla Jun 2013 #69
They aren't all saints. But they aren't all monsters, either. randome Jun 2013 #84
Are you sure they are not all monsters? iemitsu Jun 2013 #138
your bet on that chain of command, is that a 51% coin toss? Monkie Jun 2013 #75
I would think that very question is asked by a supervisor. randome Jun 2013 #85
Have you considered writing fo rthe Onion? Jackpine Radical Jun 2013 #104
Every email you send or receive is probably encrypted at some point MannyGoldstein Jun 2013 #106
Read some of the other posts on this thread. randome Jun 2013 #110
It's the "oversight" and "chain of command" in the wild world of the internets KoKo Jun 2013 #125
Hell, yes, too much is being privatized and outsourced. randome Jun 2013 #126
Try Reading the things giftedgirl77 Jun 2013 #17
ohoh, our debunked anonymous "expert" has arrived Monkie Jun 2013 #23
That's the difference between you & me giftedgirl77 Jun 2013 #29
i never used the word bullshit, or called constitutional lawyers with harvard education a joke Monkie Jun 2013 #31
Yes, I called Greenwald a joke giftedgirl77 Jun 2013 #35
so the ACLU lawyer that exposed the bush torture docs is just spinning Monkie Jun 2013 #38
I provided the link that actually has the giftedgirl77 Jun 2013 #49
Amen. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #47
The domestic communication section in the doc states that inadvertent collections are BenzoDia Jun 2013 #21
like i said earlier today, spying on americans is the job of the FBI Monkie Jun 2013 #26
Well then the Guardian needs to produce some FBI docs to back up their claims of abuse. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #28
The Guardian doesn't seem to be in the business of producing anything concrete railsback Jun 2013 #40
With their painfully long walls of text to beat their average readers into agreement. BenzoDia Jun 2013 #46
Either ignore is working nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #32
You're forgiven. randome Jun 2013 #34
im wrestling with one or two stubborn people. Monkie Jun 2013 #36
This is not about coomies (the original reason) or terrorists. nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #44
And to protect the self many are in denial. malokvale77 Jun 2013 #65
Mine is working beautifully. Catherina Jun 2013 #43
Perhaps mine s working too nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #45
talking points have arrived!oh boy are they weak Monkie Jun 2013 #48
Wow, that is weak sauce! nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #50
i missed one other one, that one is comedy gold Monkie Jun 2013 #55
I guess the actual documents are nothing nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #56
those are suddenly part of "painfully long walls of text" Monkie Jun 2013 #60
Yeah, but when they are into personal attacks nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #63
i can relate to that, for me its not the personal attacks, its the casual racism and Monkie Jun 2013 #73
Were you ProSense Jun 2013 #51
Yes, but to be fair, Snowden said he "saw things". randome Jun 2013 #52
I don't think they can see you. zeemike Jun 2013 #86
Have any Military Intel Lawyers arrived yet? They're all over twitter blowing a gasket Catherina Jun 2013 #68
we had/have a pretend lawyer here, not sure if they were intel or not, stupid yes Monkie Jun 2013 #72
That't what it boils down to in Authoritarian states: "This is the law" Catherina Jun 2013 #95
right now its like the twilight zone in here? Monkie Jun 2013 #97
Lol! Cute. There's a concerted effort, from on high down, to play this down Catherina Jun 2013 #101
the bbc is ignoring this too, so similar, but without advertising or captain crunch Monkie Jun 2013 #107
Unflattering is putting it kindly Catherina Jun 2013 #111
This reminds me that it is illegal to use Psy-Ops on iemitsu Jun 2013 #140
good point, the dead reporter did a piece on this issue? Monkie Jun 2013 #158
Yep, he is the one who exposed the "military experts" iemitsu Jun 2013 #182
i deliberately havent commented on the accident Monkie Jun 2013 #183
Yep. I have not commented on the crash before either, iemitsu Jun 2013 #184
If accurate, that's much better than I had worried Recursion Jun 2013 #39
No kidding. If it wasn't a Guardian article, I'd suspect that the NSA purposely leaked those to BenzoDia Jun 2013 #54
So ProSense Jun 2013 #41
Odd that this is secret rather than TS. (nt) Recursion Jun 2013 #42
So what are the "limitations on NSA's ability to filter communications"? Jarla Jun 2013 #57
They admit to 51% foreignnerness nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #59
Do you know the source for that figure? Jarla Jun 2013 #62
Alexander's testimony nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #64
so basically a coin toss to see if your foreign? Monkie Jun 2013 #74
Nope, and if your call went through Mexico or Canda nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #76
i bet you remember the US to US calls that were routed through canada Monkie Jun 2013 #80
Yup, and in southern borders nadinbrzezinski Jun 2013 #82
Information Week. randome Jun 2013 #67
That refers to 51% confidence in a target's foreignness. randome Jun 2013 #66
in the real world 51% confidence interval means, im guessing Monkie Jun 2013 #90
Eh. Law enforcement often depends on guesswork, instinct, chance. randome Jun 2013 #91
a day ago it was, we never target americans by accident to, oh well, we guess and go by a 51% chance Monkie Jun 2013 #92
You are missing the point, Monkey, along with a lot of other people. Th1onein Jun 2013 #115
i think i am way ahead of the point personally Monkie Jun 2013 #119
Thank you, Monkie! Th1onein Jun 2013 #121
Somewhere in heaven Kafka smiles ruefully - nt HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #153
This needs to be its own OP, imo. Very powerful stuff you've written here and it HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #152
if you mean Th1onein, he does have a OP where he discusses this Monkie Jun 2013 #185
Yeah, I saw it and am glad he made it an OP. Thanks for the heads-up! - nt HardTimes99 Jun 2013 #186
This is disturbing: Maedhros Jun 2013 #70
I think the NSA lied to the President. kentuck Jun 2013 #81
That's how I want to see it marions ghost Jun 2013 #112
I would like to see it that way, also.... KoKo Jun 2013 #127
Yep, needs the light of day marions ghost Jun 2013 #133
THis is J Edgar Hoover territory AngryAmish Jun 2013 #118
And...just like during Hoover there was fear in the Press...fear everywhere.. KoKo Jun 2013 #128
The key phrase is still "inadvertently acquired". randome Jun 2013 #87
The only rational thing to do at this point Maedhros Jun 2013 #88
I can't see anyone advocating for MORE secrecy. randome Jun 2013 #89
The recent memories of the "Starr Commission" put off any "special or outside" KoKo Jun 2013 #120
That's depressing. randome Jun 2013 #124
the nsa does the encryption questionseverything Jun 2013 #94
I don't think so. Maedhros Jun 2013 #136
where do you see the word user? questionseverything Jun 2013 #139
This excerpt refers to the status Maedhros Jun 2013 #160
i think what it is saying is questionseverything Jun 2013 #171
"heaviest users of PGP-encrypted email are lawyers handling confidential, privileged attorney-client Catherina Jun 2013 #117
K&R Katashi_itto Jun 2013 #71
HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jun 2013 #77
Bookmarked! kentuck Jun 2013 #79
That information is not available at this time. randome Jun 2013 #83
"exceptionally grave damage" v "serious damage" if made public and means of collection Catherina Jun 2013 #93
K&R marions ghost Jun 2013 #113
K & R AzDar Jun 2013 #96
Was this leaked by the NSA to make them look better? JaneyVee Jun 2013 #99
As far as conspiracy theories go, yours is a more likely one. randome Jun 2013 #100
WaPo and the NYT: ProSense Jun 2013 #105
better than what? the romanians under Ceausescu? Monkie Jun 2013 #108
Probably. kentuck Jun 2013 #109
What about dual nationals? JDPriestly Jun 2013 #114
If they're contacting overseas they're fair game, even if a reasonable suspicion. Catherina Jun 2013 #116
Another racist hater bumming out the worshipper zombies. L0oniX Jun 2013 #122
No, I am not a racist hater. I am a self-hating Black hater. Whatever the fuck that is Catherina Jun 2013 #129
You get your Klan robes and pointy hat in the mail yet? backscatter712 Jun 2013 #132
Lol for the video! Naw, I'm still picking the cotton to weave my own n/t Catherina Jun 2013 #134
Everyone needs a hobby! backscatter712 Jun 2013 #135
"Canadian sympathizers" LMFAO +1 L0oniX Jun 2013 #148
Calling fellow Democrats Racist is the new "Commie Baiting" from the past. KoKo Jun 2013 #130
Government & corporate shills ...and plain ol zombie worshippers. L0oniX Jun 2013 #150
B-b-b-but SNOOOOOWDEN!!! backscatter712 Jun 2013 #131
Stop This Nonsense DallasNE Jun 2013 #141
Now that Snowden's resume has been found to be full of holes... randome Jun 2013 #142
So How Did Snowden Land A Job At CIA Before This Gig DallasNE Jun 2013 #151
All good questions. I think the unraveling of Greenwald/Snowden has begun. randome Jun 2013 #155
You mean like the unravelling of OWS? Lol! When you make predictions like this I sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #161
We Are Totally On The Same Page n/t DallasNE Jun 2013 #164
will you please stop you character assassination and the "good german" act Monkie Jun 2013 #157
Who Are You DallasNE Jun 2013 #162
i said nothing of the sort to you? Monkie Jun 2013 #163
My Bad DallasNE Jun 2013 #168
no worries, and yes it was pretty harsh, but you arent being called a racist either? Monkie Jun 2013 #170
You aren't being called that by me. Maybe you need a scorecard. randome Jun 2013 #176
LOL! backscatter712 Jun 2013 #167
Inadvertently! Well, that covers a lot. It gives a perfect excuse to those who are caught sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #159
Funny, "We didn't mean to" doesn't work for us peons. backscatter712 Jun 2013 #166
They should just term it "unprosecutably" Coyotl Jun 2013 #169
Not to worry, soon they won't have to hide anything anymore. With some on the 'left' now joining the sabrina 1 Jun 2013 #174
Is "Inadvertantly" like "Collateral Damage"? "Unfortunate Civilan Deaths"? "Acts of God"? Tierra_y_Libertad Jun 2013 #172
K&R avaistheone1 Jun 2013 #177
K&R idwiyo Jun 2013 #178
We can hear you now (and a whole lot more!) blkmusclmachine Jun 2013 #179
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