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struggle4progress

(125,361 posts)
54. Getting the facts right is not a "justification" of anything: it's a pre-requisite
Sat Aug 3, 2013, 10:34 PM
Aug 2013

for meaningful useful discussion

It's fine with me if you want to support Manning, but then I think you should try to stick to the facts as closely as possible -- because the more often you wander from the facts, and the further you wander from the facts, the more people are going to notice the tendency to bullshizz, and that's going to have a growing impact on your credibility. Maybe you should consider the possibility that folks, who point out to you that you're careless with the fact, might actually be doing you a favor

If you claim Manning was held naked for nine months; if then I provide you with a link to a document from his attorney that I think only claims about 6 days of underwear only in the daytime, 6 nights of sleeping naked, and a few mornings of naked parade rest morning call; and if then you denounce THAT as "mental gyrations" to "somehow justify this" -- then my natural reaction will be that that you tend to make claims based on whether or not they support the narrative you prefer, rather than on whether or not the claim is true -- and THAT suggests to me that your political analyses are likely to be entirely useless, because they're unlikely to be based on a careful assessment of facts

Was Manning in isolation at Quantico? He was allowed visitors:

... Only two people visit him: his lawyer, David Coombs, and a friend, David House. Manning doesn't have many friends ... A researcher at MIT, House is involved in the hacker community in Boston. Manning was connected to the group through a friend and House said he knew of him ... House got involved and began to visit Manning in jail ...
Bradley Manning, the unknown soldier
By Sophie Elmhirst
Published 06 March 2011
http://www.newstatesman.com/north-america/2011/03/manning-house-held-base-iraq

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US says Manning leak hurt human rights work [View all] struggle4progress Aug 2013 OP
Leaked Names Shuttled to Safety, Ambassador Says struggle4progress Aug 2013 #1
With 250,000 cables, they can't cite a single solid case of serious actual harm? Just at-risk? leveymg Aug 2013 #3
'At risk' is 'not good'. randome Aug 2013 #9
There's a burden of proof in criminal matters - "Not good" doesn't meet the standard leveymg Aug 2013 #12
I agree with you on the 'proving harm' issue. randome Aug 2013 #27
LOL reusrename Aug 2013 #57
But the burden of proof in sentencing is lower than BRD. Remember, what may not convict you msanthrope Aug 2013 #35
Right, because people have to die for you to care. The CIA had pnwmom Aug 2013 #29
Also a good point. randome Aug 2013 #33
Then, we are all in agreement that no great harm has come of this. leveymg Aug 2013 #34
Death isn't the only possible harm. If an effective agent had to be removed, pnwmom Aug 2013 #42
Nothing like the CIA using vaccinations as cover to collect DNA. morningfog Aug 2013 #2
+1 idwiyo Aug 2013 #53
LOL. "Nazis Charge Jews WIth Genocide." The header's a keeper. n/t Smarmie Doofus Aug 2013 #4
What's your actual evidence that Michael Kozak is a "Nazi", asiode from your smirk? struggle4progress Aug 2013 #7
That's not at all what the poster said and you know it. NuclearDem Aug 2013 #14
Article to which said poster responded was abot KOzak's testimony struggle4progress Aug 2013 #23
Oh yeah, the video comes to mind. Didn't look like human rights to me. Autumn Aug 2013 #5
It's not just yr view. It's mine as well... Violet_Crumble Aug 2013 #32
This is all getting to be so disgusting. Autumn Aug 2013 #49
It definitely did in the Maldives Recursion Aug 2013 #6
LOL. This from the country that's murdering civilians with drones. Tierra_y_Libertad Aug 2013 #8
Weasel Speak. Human Rights Workers = Agents trained at the School of the Americas, now Zorra Aug 2013 #10
That's just ignorant... Pelican Aug 2013 #11
Ooooh, bingo, I hit a nerve! nt Zorra Aug 2013 #18
Only in the sense... Pelican Aug 2013 #19
Yes, aid workers do some amazing stuff. But that's not who Kozak was Zorra Aug 2013 #20
Actually, I was just referring to what you were talking about... Pelican Aug 2013 #21
Ah, sorry. You see, I recall Assistant Secretary Kozak being involved in Zorra Aug 2013 #24
He's a career Department of State professional. He's unlikely to have been involved in much during struggle4progress Aug 2013 #30
I'm quite sure that he was involved in the Iran Contra scandal proceedings. nt Zorra Aug 2013 #43
In Volume I of the Walsh report, the Index indicates his name appears only in Chapter 24, struggle4progress Aug 2013 #46
Nah...there's actually a bit more to it all than just that. Acting Assistant Secretary Michael Kozak Zorra Aug 2013 #52
Well, those are interesting links. Thanks! and thanks for the SoA heads-up struggle4progress Aug 2013 #56
Reframing ...It's so easy even the US gov can do it. Before ya know it... L0oniX Aug 2013 #13
The U.S. looks like fools Harmony Blue Aug 2013 #15
That's rich. n/t Comrade Grumpy Aug 2013 #16
Like drones maybe? 99Forever Aug 2013 #17
If only they would have cared this much about Valerie Plame. Rex Aug 2013 #22
Who was actually doing something important Aerows Aug 2013 #38
Yes and they all laughed over it with Bob Novak. Rex Aug 2013 #44
Manning didn't know wtf he was leaking.. he and the people involved Cha Aug 2013 #25
Us treatment of Manning in custody hurt American credibility on human rights issues, they mean Spider Jerusalem Aug 2013 #26
Pilkington, like too many other Assangists, misrepresented that report struggle4progress Aug 2013 #28
Attacking the messenger, nice Spider Jerusalem Aug 2013 #31
Pilkington claims in the Guardian article that "The UN special rapporteur on torture struggle4progress Aug 2013 #36
Dizzy yet from all that spinning? Spider Jerusalem Aug 2013 #39
I love the conclusion Aerows Aug 2013 #41
I've never argued for solitary confinement, and I've never argued that extended solitary confinement struggle4progress Aug 2013 #45
Manning was held, naked, in isolation, for 23 hours a day for nine months. Spider Jerusalem Aug 2013 #48
No. He was not held naked in isolation for nine months. struggle4progress Aug 2013 #50
Regardless of the length of time which he was denied clothing... Spider Jerusalem Aug 2013 #51
Getting the facts right is not a "justification" of anything: it's a pre-requisite struggle4progress Aug 2013 #54
allowed visitors once a week and in isolation the rest of the time? Spider Jerusalem Aug 2013 #55
Allowed visitors on Saturdays and Sundays, as I undersood it. And according to the brig at the time, struggle4progress Aug 2013 #58
What? Aerows Aug 2013 #40
I completely agree with the statement struggle4progress Aug 2013 #47
Any old lame excuse. dipsydoodle Aug 2013 #37
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