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In reply to the discussion: Thanks, Stand Your Ground! No homicide charges for teen who shot, killed man [View all]AnotherMcIntosh
(11,064 posts)154. Here's how Justice Holmes analyized self-defense in 1921 in the Brown case:
http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/getcase.pl?court=us&vol=256&invol=335
Brown's conviction was reversed.
To say that Pierson would have been expected to attempt retreat in the absence of a stand-your-ground statute disregards the holding in the 1921 Brown case.
"The other question concerns the instructions at the trial. There had been trouble between Hermis and the defendant for a long time. There was evidence that Hermis had twice assaulted the defendant with a knife and had made threats communicated to the defendant that the next time, one of them would go off in a black box. On the day in question the defendant was at the place above mentioned superintending excavation work for a postoffice. In view of Hermis's threats he had taken a pistol with him and had laid it in his coat upon a dump. Hermis was driven up by a witness, in a cart to be loaded, and the defendant said that certain earth was not to be removed, whereupon Hermis came toward him, the defendant says, with a knife. The defendant retreated some twenty or twenty-five feet to where his coat was and got his pistol. Hermis was striking at him and the defendant fired four shots and killed him. The judge instructed the jury among other things that 'it is necessary to remember, in considering the question of self defence, that the party assaulted is always under the obligation to retreat so long as retreat is open to him, provided that he can do so without subjecting himself to the danger of death or great bodily harm.' The instruction was reinforced by the further intimation that unless 'retreat would have appeared to a man of reasonable prudence, in the position of the defendant, as involving danger of death or serious bodily harm' the defendant was not entitled to stand his ground. An instruction to the effect that if the defendant had reasonable grounds of apprehension that he was in danger of losing his life or of suffering serious bodily harm from Hermis he was not bound to retreat was refused. So the question is brought out with sufficient clearness whether the formula [256 U.S. 335, 343] laid down by the Court and often repeated by the ancient law is adequate to the protection of the defendant's rights. "
"It is useless to go into the developments of the law from the time when a man who had killed another no matter how innocently had to get his pardon, whether of grace or of course. Concrete cases or illustrations stated in the early law in conditions very different from the present, like the reference to retreat in Coke, Third Inst. 55, and elsewhere, have had a tendency to ossify into specific rules without much regard for reason. Other examples may be found in the law as to trespass ab initio, Commonwealth v. Rubin, 165 Mass. 453, 43 N. E. 200, and as to fresh complaint after rape. Commonwealth v. Cleary, 172 Mass. 175, 51 N. E. 746. Rationally the failure to retreat is a circumstance to be considered with all the others in order to determine whether the defendant went farther than he was justified in doing; not a categorical proof of guilt. The law has grown, and even if historical mistakes have contributed to its growth it has tended in the direction of rules consistent with human nature. Many respectable writers agree that if a man reasonably believes that he is in immediate danger of death or grievous bodily harm from his assailant he may stand his ground and that if he kills him he has not succeeded the bounds of lawful self defence. That has been the decision of this Court. Beard v. United States, 158 U.S. 550, 559 , 15 S. Sup. Ct. 962. Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife. Therefore in this Court, at least, it is not a condition of immunity that one in that situation should pause to consider whether a reasonable man might not think it possible to fly with safety or to disable his assailant rather than to kill him Rowe v. United States, 164 U.S. 546, 558 , 17 S. Sup. Ct. 172. The law of Texas very strongly adopts these views as is shown by many cases, of which it is enough to cite two. Cooper v. State, 49 Tex. Cr. R. 28, 38, 89 S. W. 1068. Baltrip v. State, 30 Tex. App. 545, 549, 17 S. W. 1106. [256 U.S. 335, 344] It is true that in the case of Beard he was upon his own land (not in his house,) and in that of Rowe he was in the room of a hotel, but those facts, although mentioned by the Court, would not have bettered the defence by the old common law and were not appreciably more favorable than that the defendant here was at a place where he was called to be, in the discharge of his duty. There was evidence that the last shot was fired after Hermis was down. The jury might not believe the defendant's testimony that it was an accidental discharge, but the suggestion of the Government that this Court may disregard the considerable body of evidence that the shooting was in self defence is based upon a misunderstanding of what was meant by some language in Battle v. United States, 209 U.S. 36, 38 , 28 S. Sup. Ct. 422. Moreover if the last shot was intentional and may seem to have been unnecessary when considered in cold blood, the defendant would not necessarily lose his immunity if it followed close upon the others while the heat of the conflict was on, and if the defendant believed that he was fighting for his life."
"It is useless to go into the developments of the law from the time when a man who had killed another no matter how innocently had to get his pardon, whether of grace or of course. Concrete cases or illustrations stated in the early law in conditions very different from the present, like the reference to retreat in Coke, Third Inst. 55, and elsewhere, have had a tendency to ossify into specific rules without much regard for reason. Other examples may be found in the law as to trespass ab initio, Commonwealth v. Rubin, 165 Mass. 453, 43 N. E. 200, and as to fresh complaint after rape. Commonwealth v. Cleary, 172 Mass. 175, 51 N. E. 746. Rationally the failure to retreat is a circumstance to be considered with all the others in order to determine whether the defendant went farther than he was justified in doing; not a categorical proof of guilt. The law has grown, and even if historical mistakes have contributed to its growth it has tended in the direction of rules consistent with human nature. Many respectable writers agree that if a man reasonably believes that he is in immediate danger of death or grievous bodily harm from his assailant he may stand his ground and that if he kills him he has not succeeded the bounds of lawful self defence. That has been the decision of this Court. Beard v. United States, 158 U.S. 550, 559 , 15 S. Sup. Ct. 962. Detached reflection cannot be demanded in the presence of an uplifted knife. Therefore in this Court, at least, it is not a condition of immunity that one in that situation should pause to consider whether a reasonable man might not think it possible to fly with safety or to disable his assailant rather than to kill him Rowe v. United States, 164 U.S. 546, 558 , 17 S. Sup. Ct. 172. The law of Texas very strongly adopts these views as is shown by many cases, of which it is enough to cite two. Cooper v. State, 49 Tex. Cr. R. 28, 38, 89 S. W. 1068. Baltrip v. State, 30 Tex. App. 545, 549, 17 S. W. 1106. [256 U.S. 335, 344] It is true that in the case of Beard he was upon his own land (not in his house,) and in that of Rowe he was in the room of a hotel, but those facts, although mentioned by the Court, would not have bettered the defence by the old common law and were not appreciably more favorable than that the defendant here was at a place where he was called to be, in the discharge of his duty. There was evidence that the last shot was fired after Hermis was down. The jury might not believe the defendant's testimony that it was an accidental discharge, but the suggestion of the Government that this Court may disregard the considerable body of evidence that the shooting was in self defence is based upon a misunderstanding of what was meant by some language in Battle v. United States, 209 U.S. 36, 38 , 28 S. Sup. Ct. 422. Moreover if the last shot was intentional and may seem to have been unnecessary when considered in cold blood, the defendant would not necessarily lose his immunity if it followed close upon the others while the heat of the conflict was on, and if the defendant believed that he was fighting for his life."
Brown's conviction was reversed.
To say that Pierson would have been expected to attempt retreat in the absence of a stand-your-ground statute disregards the holding in the 1921 Brown case.
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Thanks, Stand Your Ground! No homicide charges for teen who shot, killed man [View all]
Robb
Aug 2013
OP
waved a stick at the teens. one ran away. the other could have, but didn't. waving a stick
HiPointDem
Aug 2013
#13
swinging and waving are the same action. the other teen was able to run away from the big
HiPointDem
Aug 2013
#103
in principle i see a value of 'reasonable force' - that's not what i'm seeing
samsingh
Aug 2013
#149
SYG lowers the threshold for using deadly violence. It is a fucking bad law.
bluestate10
Aug 2013
#101
syg = blacks can kills blacks & whites can kill blacks. but blacks killing whites? less likely.
HiPointDem
Aug 2013
#11
What's to prevent the exact same scenario from occurring under duty to retreat?
Bazinga
Aug 2013
#158
And the post that rl6214 responded to didn't contain references in publications.
Bazinga
Aug 2013
#204
Um, the raw numbers tell a different story, you don't get to make up your own facts
snooper2
Aug 2013
#200
The blog comes from your link. It is where the 11-1 figure originally comes from
hack89
Aug 2013
#60
So you do have time to go back to your original thread and show me the hard numbers
hack89
Aug 2013
#86
Some guy said ill make him trayvon 2. Some kid said f$ck you and turned the system against itself
Township75
Aug 2013
#144
I dream of an American where once again sticking wielding maniacs can safely assault teens.
Nuclear Unicorn
Aug 2013
#48
The link says he's going to be charged for illegal possession. n/t
cherokeeprogressive
Aug 2013
#120
Awful example. A "choir director" who attacked children with a large stick?
DirkGently
Aug 2013
#132
Here's how Justice Holmes analyized self-defense in 1921 in the Brown case:
AnotherMcIntosh
Aug 2013
#154
At what kind of church was he a choir director? Was it an anti-gay church?
Freddie Stubbs
Aug 2013
#195