General Discussion

Ms. Toad

(38,282 posts)

161. In a criminal trial - there is no such thing as a verdict of "innocent."

Sat Dec 28, 2013, 03:12 PM

Dec 2013

Not guilty merely means that the evidence presented was not sufficient to prove that either a crime was committed or, if one was, the person charged is the one who committed it. It does mean the allegation was false - and in a culture in which far too many members still believe that "no" means "yes, but I have to say 'no' in order to preserve my reputation," andthat no woman can be raped against her will, and that pregnancy cannot result from rape, and so on - many jurists (drawn from that culture) require far more to convict people who commit rape than they do to convict for any other crime.

(An "innocent" verdict in a criminal matter only comes after a conviction is reversed, after jail time, in order to establish the right to compensation from the state for false imprisonment. It is extremely rare - and unlikely to be included in any general statistics about trial verdicts.)

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Does anyone dispute the fact that the 'false allegations of rape are common' myth is dangerous? [View all] redqueen Dec 2013 OP

Just a small group here on DU with a mission trumad Dec 2013 #1

What I don't get is how this mission isn't more obvious. redqueen Dec 2013 #13

It's not a sufficient explanation, but it has to do with ease of empathy el_bryanto Dec 2013 #197

We're going to miss your always helpful commentary. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #62

Ooops intaglio Dec 2013 #71

Where would you get a silly idea like that? pintobean Dec 2013 #76

alert fail trumad Dec 2013 #194

I didn't alert on you. I don't need to do that. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #224

Your post suggests a certain dishonesty etherealtruth Dec 2013 #228

You're right. I was being dishonest: I'm not going to miss Trumad. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #239

I agree that we all have our own unique reactions to posters etherealtruth Dec 2013 #246

Have a nice afternoon. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #250

"I think the solution to that is to require alerters to identify themselves. " etherealtruth Dec 2013 #252

Once again, another inciteful comment. nt madinmaryland Dec 2013 #159

I agree 100% gollygee Dec 2013 #2

Exactly. It's so obvious what's going on. redqueen Dec 2013 #8

And reading the book The New Jim Crow is a fantastic way to see how deeply embedded this problem Cal Carpenter Dec 2013 #65

+1 gollygee Dec 2013 #67

Thanks for sharing that. redqueen Dec 2013 #74

Which would lead one to conclude that wrongful imprisonment isn't REALLY what is Squinch Dec 2013 #269

I think far too often people confuse reasonable doubt with false allegations Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #3

Excellent point. redqueen Dec 2013 #9

There are some who float that 45% of reported rapes are false accusations. boston bean Dec 2013 #10

That is certainly not my belief Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #15

I wasn't saying it was. I was just letting you know. boston bean Dec 2013 #18

Yes, this exactly. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #19

You are entitled to your own opinion. 99Forever Dec 2013 #4

So, what are the "facts" then? xulamaude Dec 2013 #7

Please no. redqueen Dec 2013 #11

Okay :) xulamaude Dec 2013 #17

The FACT is that ... 99Forever Dec 2013 #12

You think that means the allegations were false? boston bean Dec 2013 #16

It certainly doesn't mean they are TRUE tkmorris Dec 2013 #27

How is my logic lacking when I boston bean Dec 2013 #157

I think there's a difference rrneck Dec 2013 #37

Granted. 99Forever Dec 2013 #69

I agree. We're not supposed to trust them. rrneck Dec 2013 #106

that would be the court system that is overwhelmingly run by men. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #85

Well, that assumes a gender based conspiracy, which is a pretty sexist thing to say. rrneck Dec 2013 #98

DU is not court. Skinner said. That is why the jury system on DU runs like it does. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #103

Courts are rrneck Dec 2013 #136

questions for you, rrneck. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #141

I wouldn't mind a bit. rrneck Dec 2013 #146

How would I like to have an all woman jury? NobodyHere Dec 2013 #192

Tell me, who wrote the rules of evidence? nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #108

The same people that made your post possible. rrneck Dec 2013 #129

Could have just said "men" and saved yourself the trouble. Thanks though. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #145

No trouble. rrneck Dec 2013 #150

Silly question. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #152

Why is it silly? nt rrneck Dec 2013 #155

Hmmm might that make a more systemic problem? Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #115

possibly but, ya know ... a problem is still a problem wouldn't you agree? Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #121

Oh I'm not disputing that there's a problem. The trick is to get the PTB to recognize there is one Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #126

I will go there with you for a bit ... but, I have to go to work where I am paid less on the dollar Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #137

Very good points Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #139

A problem is still a problem but a solution for the problem depends rrneck Dec 2013 #138

O.J and Zimmerman both were acquitted of crimes they clearly were guilty of. tblue37 Dec 2013 #38

It helps to have the money to buy good legal representation. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #44

It's too bad then that women don't have much cash xulamaude Dec 2013 #93

Which what to do with what? 99Forever Dec 2013 #57

A "not guilty" conviction does not mean the allegation is proven wrong. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #203

Bullshit. 99Forever Dec 2013 #222

So you are saying that if a prosecution fails to get a conviction in a rape case boston bean Dec 2013 #234

I actually am. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #237

In Great Britain? 99Forever Dec 2013 #238

Nope. The US. n/t Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #243

Well golly gee willikers... 99Forever Dec 2013 #248

Actually, not. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #256

Not guilty does not mean innocent. kwassa Dec 2013 #46

Not guilty does not mean guilty. 99Forever Dec 2013 #63

What is your point? and what condescension? kwassa Dec 2013 #79

Yes, not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. kcr Dec 2013 #244

It also doesn't mean "the woman" didn't lie. 99Forever Dec 2013 #251

"And what the OP did" xulamaude Dec 2013 #254

The other one... 99Forever Dec 2013 #259

It'd be helpful if you stated that clearly and maybe left xulamaude Dec 2013 #264

I am being attacked from multiple fronts for having the audicity... 99Forever Dec 2013 #266

Attack, attack, attack! xulamaude Dec 2013 #267

And now you can understand what I was talking about. 99Forever Dec 2013 #273

You're right. 99Forever Dec 2013 #278

And some may be unprovable cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #120

and how many thousands of rape kits are sitting, untested, in evidence lockers all around the niyad Dec 2013 #268

yeah. :( cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #270

The standard of proof in a criminal trial is "beyond a reasonable doubt" Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #51

I have been party to jury selection discussions on rape/sexual assault cases ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #102

Which is really about what I'd expect... Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #135

This was better than 15 years ago ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #144

Please see Post #3, above. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #90

+100, but given this another gender wars thread it all goes to trash Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #97

You might as well be saying that threads which expose income inequality are part of a "class war". redqueen Dec 2013 #99

hmmm, I'll give you that you seem to be one of the ones that seem to post fairly. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #100

One reason rape victims don't come forward -- redqueen Dec 2013 #105

Well I totally agree with that. Ok reread your post and it very reasonable. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #113

Well ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #117

In a criminal trial - there is no such thing as a verdict of "innocent." Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #161

Kewl. 99Forever Dec 2013 #220

It is actually a very real difference. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #235

A whole bunch of blah blah... 99Forever Dec 2013 #236

Tell it to Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #242

A GUILTY or NOT GUILTY verdict has nothing to do with whether the allegation is true or false. madinmaryland Dec 2013 #221

The FBI provides statistics on false allegations BainsBane Dec 2013 #257

right on schedule. and just remember, that statement works both ways. niyad Dec 2013 #52

What does that even mean? That you've memorized a platitude? Matariki Dec 2013 #127

Reading is fundamental. 99Forever Dec 2013 #218

You start first BainsBane Dec 2013 #260

Was I speaking to you? 99Forever Dec 2013 #261

So you aren't interested in reading BainsBane Dec 2013 #262

I'm not interested in you or anything you have to say. Period. 99Forever Dec 2013 #263

Can anyone explain why? I will take a stab at trying to understand and answer - Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #5

That's the only reason I can see. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #14

I'd go the step further and say xulamaude Dec 2013 #21

it is the most violent and demeaning and warlike. raping and pillaging of women, yes. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #26

Oh there's that too, for sure xulamaude Dec 2013 #29

"Girls grow up knowing that they are prey." redqueen Dec 2013 #32

Girls grow up knowing that they are prey. - Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #34

Well said :) nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #35

I define the problem as oppressing men leads to oppressing women... freshwest Dec 2013 #109

"it is the job of men to do this work" xulamaude Dec 2013 #111

the way boys are taught cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #130

I think that argument has legs ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #140

Good example. xulamaude Dec 2013 #147

Of course ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #154

i love seeing you bring your own experience into this discussion. totally love it. seabeyond Dec 2013 #158

Welcome back. Good that you can speak for yourself again, instead of relying on Omega Minimo. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #163

do not know what you are implying, i do not care. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #168

Omega Minimo! LOL! nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #178

It's awesome how you got my reference, for someone who only registered here a month ago. Electric Monk Dec 2013 #206

it is against the rules to call out duers in this manner. i know. i did not and yet, just talking seabeyond Dec 2013 #210

I see what you tried to do there, but it's really not the same. Electric Monk Dec 2013 #212

as i said, just sayin'. you may not interpret it as the same. others may seabeyond Dec 2013 #216

Just one. I have however been reading DU xulamaude Dec 2013 #232

It is my only contribution ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #166

and as always, appreciated and valued. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #171

But the funny thing is ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #179

i like to hear it all. to better understand. maybe that would be a difference. seabeyond Dec 2013 #182

My friend, redqueen Dec 2013 #187

Awhile back ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #202

She's a wise woman. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #205

No one should. nt LisaLynne Dec 2013 #6

True, redqueen Dec 2013 #20

Yes, that has been very discouraging. LisaLynne Dec 2013 #22

Anyone who claims that false rape allegations are "common" is talking nonsense. Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #23

If you read the report from the UK, it's more often correlated with mental illness, redqueen Dec 2013 #24

If you think mentally ill people cannot have motives of hatred or vindictiveness, msanthrope Dec 2013 #59

Define common please. Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #104

I will repeat what I said there, with an addendum: The Straight Story Dec 2013 #25

False reports hurt women far less than rape culture. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #28

Got that right. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #31

You can't equate the two. Savannahmann Dec 2013 #36

"taking the position that the accused is guilty until proven innocent is where I will no longer bac" redqueen Dec 2013 #39

The gun analogy is a bad one seattledo Dec 2013 #282

I never said that the discussion was unwelcome, nor unwarranted. Savannahmann Dec 2013 #30

Wall of text, helpful. Did you even read the OP? redqueen Dec 2013 #33

The old 'I know a guy...' xulamaude Dec 2013 #41

Well said. The sexual assault that is implied to be harmless fun. redqueen Dec 2013 #43

When people trained in determining which cases are supported by evidence Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #213

You ought to address your misinterpretation and possible distortion of statistics in your other TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #40

"comes off like a call for the presumption of guilt." redqueen Dec 2013 #42

Your stats do not support your argument and to me it does, I see little other point in the assertion TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #47

The MRA group will always fight the facts... Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #45

Just as rightwingers would do in most threads here, if they could get a foothold. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #48

Agreed Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #50

Ba-Zinga!! Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #83

This is where seabeyond would have said xulamaude Dec 2013 #49

What, did seabeyond get PPRd or something? Electric Monk Dec 2013 #56

Hi Monk. xulamaude Dec 2013 #58

It's a no win situation. I'm already guilty of being male. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #66

You said it, not anyone else here. Remember that. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #70

Already guilty in your books, no matter what I write, say, or do. Yes, we understand each other. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #73

Christ, Monk, your mindreading leaves a lot to be desired.... xulamaude Dec 2013 #77

Oh, my. DU's total post count probably dropped 10% today. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #91

I have no idea what the "MRA group' might think. 99Forever Dec 2013 #75

You keep saying that... Why do you keep trying to intentionally misrepresent the OP? Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #78

Losing does not indicate bias. kwassa Dec 2013 #82

it really is quite simple--the patriarchy maintains power by keeping women in fear, keeping them niyad Dec 2013 #53

so true Tumbulu Dec 2013 #133

What would DU be without RAPE plastered on the front page every day? NoOneMan Dec 2013 #54

What would the world be like if RAPE xulamaude Dec 2013 #60

Imagine that ... Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #110

did you see this latest outrage in india? niyad Dec 2013 #271

I hadn't, but I have now. xulamaude Dec 2013 #272

Rape is an epidemic that affects many lives. redqueen Dec 2013 #89

How common is the "false allegations of rape are common" myth? Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #55

As I said in the OP redqueen Dec 2013 #61

I'm not desperate at all, and I actually responded to your thread in good faith. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #86

"stay in HOF" xulamaude Dec 2013 #96

does that read like: KNOW YOUR PLACE ...? Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #107

Not really The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #122

still sounding like Know Your Place -- Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #124

The OP is opening up a question to anyone The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #149

No, he actually said this: polly7 Dec 2013 #112

"every fucking word is twisted into something ugly" xulamaude Dec 2013 #116

No, it's a word I only use in frustration. polly7 Dec 2013 #119

Well, Polly, you see it your way and xulamaude Dec 2013 #123

He didn't tell you to 'go someplace else'. polly7 Dec 2013 #128

Right. He said "stay in HOF" xulamaude Dec 2013 #143

You chopped his sentence and intent to get your 'quote'. polly7 Dec 2013 #148

What's with all the "play the victim" and "sin" stuff, Polly? xulamaude Dec 2013 #151

What's with all the 'sin'? polly7 Dec 2013 #153

Polly, this IS the whole sentence: xulamaude Dec 2013 #156

Finally! you posted the 'whole sentence'. polly7 Dec 2013 #160

As I said before, xulamaude Dec 2013 #167

You seem to need to find it dismissive, I'll give you that. polly7 Dec 2013 #172

Who has "demonized someone who never had anything to do with it"? boston bean Dec 2013 #173

It happens here ALL the time. polly7 Dec 2013 #180

I see a lot of twisting and I saw a lot of twisting back then too. boston bean Dec 2013 #185

It's the truth that I'm a rape-apologist? polly7 Dec 2013 #188

TWIST TWIST TWIST boston bean Dec 2013 #193

As I said, you have very good reason for wanting to 'move on'. polly7 Dec 2013 #196

Well, if that is what make you DU enjoyable, rock on. boston bean Dec 2013 #198

No, being treated that way isn't enjoyable at all. polly7 Dec 2013 #199

Well, sometime we aren't treated nicely on DU, I can attest to that myself. boston bean Dec 2013 #200

Who said I was "demonizing" him?! xulamaude Dec 2013 #175

I did. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #183

yes. the statement to stay out of GD with a progressive issue. and said in different ways thru out seabeyond Dec 2013 #164

hello! boston bean Dec 2013 #165

hi, lol. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #170

That's incorrect The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #209

peruse the thread. there is a couple that say, consensus had, none on gd. firstly. and secondly, seabeyond Dec 2013 #219

I'm sorry, but that's utter bullshit. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #245

i have never shied from disagreement. so i hardly see that is an issue for me. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #247

I told you to stay in HOF if you can't stand open discussion in GD. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #186

Who told you that they didn't want you to post in this thread? boston bean Dec 2013 #190

How many posts do I have in HoF? How many do I have in GD? nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #191

You brought up a case from 7 fucking years ago, redqueen Dec 2013 #195

And no, it's not just women. Men post in HoF, too. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #201

Okay, I thought someone posted that you had to be a woman to be a HOF member. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #223

Oh really? xulamaude Dec 2013 #249

stating i do not mind confrontations suggest to you i do not like confrontations? really? lol seabeyond Dec 2013 #253

He was talking to me, sea xulamaude Dec 2013 #255

are we? well, i am honored, as we are one. lol seabeyond Dec 2013 #258

Are you surprised? redqueen Dec 2013 #114

Not at all. :) xulamaude Dec 2013 #118

the 'false rape accusation' theory heaven05 Dec 2013 #64

The outrage, on both sides, is odd Android3.14 Dec 2013 #68

Is "outrage" about the myth that poor people are lazy odd? redqueen Dec 2013 #81

I am a feminist... Android3.14 Dec 2013 #233

I honestly do not see where you are getting hostility from that. redqueen Dec 2013 #265

The entire tone is hostile Android3.14 Dec 2013 #274

Just now, I used "kindly" sincerely. redqueen Dec 2013 #276

"everyone agrees on almost every point" NoOneMan Dec 2013 #101

No, I do not dispute that DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #72

God I hope not ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #80

I never reported on my rape because I did not think people would believe me. hrmjustin Dec 2013 #84

^^THIS^^ Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #87

. hrmjustin Dec 2013 #88

I'm sorry that happened to you. redqueen Dec 2013 #92

I also was still in the closet to many people at that time and was afraid to come out. hrmjustin Dec 2013 #94

Male victims are silenced by other myths, too. redqueen Dec 2013 #95

Or just plain ignoring them Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #281

I'm really sorry cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #131

The same things occured to me reading that other thread Matariki Dec 2013 #125

So well said. johnp3907 Dec 2013 #132

Well stated Tumbulu Dec 2013 #134

I think it's very dangerous. MineralMan Dec 2013 #142

Unless some troll is posting completely inane comments that I haven't bothered to read... Shandris Dec 2013 #162

It's shorthand really.. boston bean Dec 2013 #169

Ahhh, okay. Thank you for that BostonBean. Shandris Dec 2013 #174

there is a thread about UK stating false claim at .6%. at least two men said this. seabeyond Dec 2013 #177

Thank you Seabeyond Shandris Dec 2013 #181

Well said. historylovr Dec 2013 #176

It happened to my son... jimlup Dec 2013 #184

One difference about rape allegations Jim Lane Dec 2013 #189

Does anyone dispute the fact that the 'false allegations of rape are common' myth is dangerous? etherealtruth Dec 2013 #204

I'm sure that being falsely accused really fucking sucks, too. How does one live that down? nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #208

Of course it "really fucking sucks". boston bean Dec 2013 #214

I am beginning to think the game consists of etherealtruth Dec 2013 #225

step further. i get more pissed at the few false claim than actual act cause it hurts ALL victims seabeyond Dec 2013 #226

Holy putting words in someone else's mouth, Batman. The irony here is incredible. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #227

What words were put into someone elses mouth? etherealtruth Dec 2013 #231

Being falsely accused of anything is horrific etherealtruth Dec 2013 #217

Being falsely accused of lying about rape, that sucks too...... boston bean Dec 2013 #229

Without doubt etherealtruth Dec 2013 #230

Agree with OP, but the myth has legs and may not be a myth pediatricmedic Dec 2013 #207

maybe putting the few out there is actually reinforcing a myth instead of their being "legs" hence, seabeyond Dec 2013 #211

I don't think anyone can deny that there are false allegations of rape. The statistics I have seen, madinmaryland Dec 2013 #215

"For no other crime is there so much energy dedicated to focusing on false allegations" davidn3600 Dec 2013 #240

And there it is. You just stepped in it. That's why this was a bad thread from the get-go. Electric Monk Dec 2013 #277

No, have no idea really, not if all these cries I hear about the first amendment having any due Rex Dec 2013 #241

No DonCoquixote Dec 2013 #275

It's dangerous, absolutely. People need to be taught to report a rape immediately after the rape, so Zorra Dec 2013 #279

The other thread wasn't derailed at all Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #280