General Discussion

Ms. Toad

(38,495 posts)

235. It is actually a very real difference.

Sat Dec 28, 2013, 05:23 PM

Dec 2013

"Not guilty" says nothing at all about the truth of the allegation - not even that the jury doesn't believe the allegations. To find "not guilty," every single juror can still believe the accused is actually guilty of the crime - and still return a verdict of not guilty if a single juror believes that a reasonable person could reach a different conclusion based on the evidence presented. (That is what beyond a reasonable doubt means.)

"Innocent" means that after a court has found someone guilty and that person has served time, the conviction has been reversed. As a step toward seeking compensation from the state, a court must generally determine 50+% that the allegations against that particular person were false.

In both cases, the allegations could actually be either true or false. But in the case of a "not guilty" verdict, there is no assessment at all about innocence (or the truth of the allegations). Only an assessment by the jury that a reasonable person could conclude that either the crime wasn't committed - or that it was committed by someone else.

In the case of a verdict of innocent (declaration of innocence), there is a decision by the court that the allegations were false.

When you assert that, "Round numbers, 1 out of 4 of those cases resulted in a NOT GUILTY or INNOCENT verdict" contradicts the claim of ,"'.6%' false allegation rate," you are equating the two - "not guilty" and "innocent." Legally, and in terms of what they mean about the truth of an allegation," they are extremely different.

(And, frankly, even if you hadn't inserted "innocent" into your statement, the way you are using the numbers makes it clear you are equating "not guilty" with "innocent" or "false allegation." They aren't the same - and it isn't just semantics. Ask anyone who has been released via the Innocence project, and who has been denied compensation for false imprisonment because the reversal of their conviction is not sufficient to establish their innocence.)

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Does anyone dispute the fact that the 'false allegations of rape are common' myth is dangerous? [View all] redqueen Dec 2013 OP

Just a small group here on DU with a mission trumad Dec 2013 #1

What I don't get is how this mission isn't more obvious. redqueen Dec 2013 #13

It's not a sufficient explanation, but it has to do with ease of empathy el_bryanto Dec 2013 #197

We're going to miss your always helpful commentary. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #62

Ooops intaglio Dec 2013 #71

Where would you get a silly idea like that? pintobean Dec 2013 #76

alert fail trumad Dec 2013 #194

I didn't alert on you. I don't need to do that. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #224

Your post suggests a certain dishonesty etherealtruth Dec 2013 #228

You're right. I was being dishonest: I'm not going to miss Trumad. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #239

I agree that we all have our own unique reactions to posters etherealtruth Dec 2013 #246

Have a nice afternoon. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #250

"I think the solution to that is to require alerters to identify themselves. " etherealtruth Dec 2013 #252

Once again, another inciteful comment. nt madinmaryland Dec 2013 #159

I agree 100% gollygee Dec 2013 #2

Exactly. It's so obvious what's going on. redqueen Dec 2013 #8

And reading the book The New Jim Crow is a fantastic way to see how deeply embedded this problem Cal Carpenter Dec 2013 #65

+1 gollygee Dec 2013 #67

Thanks for sharing that. redqueen Dec 2013 #74

Which would lead one to conclude that wrongful imprisonment isn't REALLY what is Squinch Dec 2013 #269

I think far too often people confuse reasonable doubt with false allegations Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #3

Excellent point. redqueen Dec 2013 #9

There are some who float that 45% of reported rapes are false accusations. boston bean Dec 2013 #10

That is certainly not my belief Bjorn Against Dec 2013 #15

I wasn't saying it was. I was just letting you know. boston bean Dec 2013 #18

Yes, this exactly. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #19

You are entitled to your own opinion. 99Forever Dec 2013 #4

So, what are the "facts" then? xulamaude Dec 2013 #7

Please no. redqueen Dec 2013 #11

Okay :) xulamaude Dec 2013 #17

The FACT is that ... 99Forever Dec 2013 #12

You think that means the allegations were false? boston bean Dec 2013 #16

It certainly doesn't mean they are TRUE tkmorris Dec 2013 #27

How is my logic lacking when I boston bean Dec 2013 #157

I think there's a difference rrneck Dec 2013 #37

Granted. 99Forever Dec 2013 #69

I agree. We're not supposed to trust them. rrneck Dec 2013 #106

that would be the court system that is overwhelmingly run by men. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #85

Well, that assumes a gender based conspiracy, which is a pretty sexist thing to say. rrneck Dec 2013 #98

DU is not court. Skinner said. That is why the jury system on DU runs like it does. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #103

Courts are rrneck Dec 2013 #136

questions for you, rrneck. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #141

I wouldn't mind a bit. rrneck Dec 2013 #146

How would I like to have an all woman jury? NobodyHere Dec 2013 #192

Tell me, who wrote the rules of evidence? nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #108

The same people that made your post possible. rrneck Dec 2013 #129

Could have just said "men" and saved yourself the trouble. Thanks though. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #145

No trouble. rrneck Dec 2013 #150

Silly question. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #152

Why is it silly? nt rrneck Dec 2013 #155

Hmmm might that make a more systemic problem? Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #115

possibly but, ya know ... a problem is still a problem wouldn't you agree? Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #121

Oh I'm not disputing that there's a problem. The trick is to get the PTB to recognize there is one Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #126

I will go there with you for a bit ... but, I have to go to work where I am paid less on the dollar Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #137

Very good points Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #139

A problem is still a problem but a solution for the problem depends rrneck Dec 2013 #138

O.J and Zimmerman both were acquitted of crimes they clearly were guilty of. tblue37 Dec 2013 #38

It helps to have the money to buy good legal representation. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #44

It's too bad then that women don't have much cash xulamaude Dec 2013 #93

Which what to do with what? 99Forever Dec 2013 #57

A "not guilty" conviction does not mean the allegation is proven wrong. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #203

Bullshit. 99Forever Dec 2013 #222

So you are saying that if a prosecution fails to get a conviction in a rape case boston bean Dec 2013 #234

I actually am. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #237

In Great Britain? 99Forever Dec 2013 #238

Nope. The US. n/t Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #243

Well golly gee willikers... 99Forever Dec 2013 #248

Actually, not. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #256

Not guilty does not mean innocent. kwassa Dec 2013 #46

Not guilty does not mean guilty. 99Forever Dec 2013 #63

What is your point? and what condescension? kwassa Dec 2013 #79

Yes, not proven beyond a reasonable doubt. kcr Dec 2013 #244

It also doesn't mean "the woman" didn't lie. 99Forever Dec 2013 #251

"And what the OP did" xulamaude Dec 2013 #254

The other one... 99Forever Dec 2013 #259

It'd be helpful if you stated that clearly and maybe left xulamaude Dec 2013 #264

I am being attacked from multiple fronts for having the audicity... 99Forever Dec 2013 #266

Attack, attack, attack! xulamaude Dec 2013 #267

And now you can understand what I was talking about. 99Forever Dec 2013 #273

You're right. 99Forever Dec 2013 #278

And some may be unprovable cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #120

and how many thousands of rape kits are sitting, untested, in evidence lockers all around the niyad Dec 2013 #268

yeah. :( cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #270

The standard of proof in a criminal trial is "beyond a reasonable doubt" Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #51

I have been party to jury selection discussions on rape/sexual assault cases ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #102

Which is really about what I'd expect... Spider Jerusalem Dec 2013 #135

This was better than 15 years ago ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #144

Please see Post #3, above. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #90

+100, but given this another gender wars thread it all goes to trash Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #97

You might as well be saying that threads which expose income inequality are part of a "class war". redqueen Dec 2013 #99

hmmm, I'll give you that you seem to be one of the ones that seem to post fairly. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #100

One reason rape victims don't come forward -- redqueen Dec 2013 #105

Well I totally agree with that. Ok reread your post and it very reasonable. Katashi_itto Dec 2013 #113

Well ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #117

In a criminal trial - there is no such thing as a verdict of "innocent." Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #161

Kewl. 99Forever Dec 2013 #220

It is actually a very real difference. Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #235

A whole bunch of blah blah... 99Forever Dec 2013 #236

Tell it to Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #242

A GUILTY or NOT GUILTY verdict has nothing to do with whether the allegation is true or false. madinmaryland Dec 2013 #221

The FBI provides statistics on false allegations BainsBane Dec 2013 #257

right on schedule. and just remember, that statement works both ways. niyad Dec 2013 #52

What does that even mean? That you've memorized a platitude? Matariki Dec 2013 #127

Reading is fundamental. 99Forever Dec 2013 #218

You start first BainsBane Dec 2013 #260

Was I speaking to you? 99Forever Dec 2013 #261

So you aren't interested in reading BainsBane Dec 2013 #262

I'm not interested in you or anything you have to say. Period. 99Forever Dec 2013 #263

Can anyone explain why? I will take a stab at trying to understand and answer - Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #5

That's the only reason I can see. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #14

I'd go the step further and say xulamaude Dec 2013 #21

it is the most violent and demeaning and warlike. raping and pillaging of women, yes. Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #26

Oh there's that too, for sure xulamaude Dec 2013 #29

"Girls grow up knowing that they are prey." redqueen Dec 2013 #32

Girls grow up knowing that they are prey. - Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #34

Well said :) nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #35

I define the problem as oppressing men leads to oppressing women... freshwest Dec 2013 #109

"it is the job of men to do this work" xulamaude Dec 2013 #111

the way boys are taught cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #130

I think that argument has legs ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #140

Good example. xulamaude Dec 2013 #147

Of course ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #154

i love seeing you bring your own experience into this discussion. totally love it. seabeyond Dec 2013 #158

Welcome back. Good that you can speak for yourself again, instead of relying on Omega Minimo. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #163

do not know what you are implying, i do not care. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #168

Omega Minimo! LOL! nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #178

It's awesome how you got my reference, for someone who only registered here a month ago. Electric Monk Dec 2013 #206

it is against the rules to call out duers in this manner. i know. i did not and yet, just talking seabeyond Dec 2013 #210

I see what you tried to do there, but it's really not the same. Electric Monk Dec 2013 #212

as i said, just sayin'. you may not interpret it as the same. others may seabeyond Dec 2013 #216

Just one. I have however been reading DU xulamaude Dec 2013 #232

It is my only contribution ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #166

and as always, appreciated and valued. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #171

But the funny thing is ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #179

i like to hear it all. to better understand. maybe that would be a difference. seabeyond Dec 2013 #182

My friend, redqueen Dec 2013 #187

Awhile back ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2013 #202

She's a wise woman. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #205

No one should. nt LisaLynne Dec 2013 #6

True, redqueen Dec 2013 #20

Yes, that has been very discouraging. LisaLynne Dec 2013 #22

Anyone who claims that false rape allegations are "common" is talking nonsense. Nye Bevan Dec 2013 #23

If you read the report from the UK, it's more often correlated with mental illness, redqueen Dec 2013 #24

If you think mentally ill people cannot have motives of hatred or vindictiveness, msanthrope Dec 2013 #59

Define common please. Drahthaardogs Dec 2013 #104

I will repeat what I said there, with an addendum: The Straight Story Dec 2013 #25

False reports hurt women far less than rape culture. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #28

Got that right. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #31

You can't equate the two. Savannahmann Dec 2013 #36

"taking the position that the accused is guilty until proven innocent is where I will no longer bac" redqueen Dec 2013 #39

The gun analogy is a bad one seattledo Dec 2013 #282

I never said that the discussion was unwelcome, nor unwarranted. Savannahmann Dec 2013 #30

Wall of text, helpful. Did you even read the OP? redqueen Dec 2013 #33

The old 'I know a guy...' xulamaude Dec 2013 #41

Well said. The sexual assault that is implied to be harmless fun. redqueen Dec 2013 #43

When people trained in determining which cases are supported by evidence Ms. Toad Dec 2013 #213

You ought to address your misinterpretation and possible distortion of statistics in your other TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #40

"comes off like a call for the presumption of guilt." redqueen Dec 2013 #42

Your stats do not support your argument and to me it does, I see little other point in the assertion TheKentuckian Dec 2013 #47

The MRA group will always fight the facts... Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #45

Just as rightwingers would do in most threads here, if they could get a foothold. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #48

Agreed Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #50

Ba-Zinga!! Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #83

This is where seabeyond would have said xulamaude Dec 2013 #49

What, did seabeyond get PPRd or something? Electric Monk Dec 2013 #56

Hi Monk. xulamaude Dec 2013 #58

It's a no win situation. I'm already guilty of being male. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #66

You said it, not anyone else here. Remember that. nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #70

Already guilty in your books, no matter what I write, say, or do. Yes, we understand each other. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #73

Christ, Monk, your mindreading leaves a lot to be desired.... xulamaude Dec 2013 #77

Oh, my. DU's total post count probably dropped 10% today. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #91

I have no idea what the "MRA group' might think. 99Forever Dec 2013 #75

You keep saying that... Why do you keep trying to intentionally misrepresent the OP? Ohio Joe Dec 2013 #78

Losing does not indicate bias. kwassa Dec 2013 #82

it really is quite simple--the patriarchy maintains power by keeping women in fear, keeping them niyad Dec 2013 #53

so true Tumbulu Dec 2013 #133

What would DU be without RAPE plastered on the front page every day? NoOneMan Dec 2013 #54

What would the world be like if RAPE xulamaude Dec 2013 #60

Imagine that ... Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #110

did you see this latest outrage in india? niyad Dec 2013 #271

I hadn't, but I have now. xulamaude Dec 2013 #272

Rape is an epidemic that affects many lives. redqueen Dec 2013 #89

How common is the "false allegations of rape are common" myth? Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #55

As I said in the OP redqueen Dec 2013 #61

I'm not desperate at all, and I actually responded to your thread in good faith. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #86

"stay in HOF" xulamaude Dec 2013 #96

does that read like: KNOW YOUR PLACE ...? Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #107

Not really The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #122

still sounding like Know Your Place -- Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #124

The OP is opening up a question to anyone The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #149

No, he actually said this: polly7 Dec 2013 #112

"every fucking word is twisted into something ugly" xulamaude Dec 2013 #116

No, it's a word I only use in frustration. polly7 Dec 2013 #119

Well, Polly, you see it your way and xulamaude Dec 2013 #123

He didn't tell you to 'go someplace else'. polly7 Dec 2013 #128

Right. He said "stay in HOF" xulamaude Dec 2013 #143

You chopped his sentence and intent to get your 'quote'. polly7 Dec 2013 #148

What's with all the "play the victim" and "sin" stuff, Polly? xulamaude Dec 2013 #151

What's with all the 'sin'? polly7 Dec 2013 #153

Polly, this IS the whole sentence: xulamaude Dec 2013 #156

Finally! you posted the 'whole sentence'. polly7 Dec 2013 #160

As I said before, xulamaude Dec 2013 #167

You seem to need to find it dismissive, I'll give you that. polly7 Dec 2013 #172

Who has "demonized someone who never had anything to do with it"? boston bean Dec 2013 #173

It happens here ALL the time. polly7 Dec 2013 #180

I see a lot of twisting and I saw a lot of twisting back then too. boston bean Dec 2013 #185

It's the truth that I'm a rape-apologist? polly7 Dec 2013 #188

TWIST TWIST TWIST boston bean Dec 2013 #193

As I said, you have very good reason for wanting to 'move on'. polly7 Dec 2013 #196

Well, if that is what make you DU enjoyable, rock on. boston bean Dec 2013 #198

No, being treated that way isn't enjoyable at all. polly7 Dec 2013 #199

Well, sometime we aren't treated nicely on DU, I can attest to that myself. boston bean Dec 2013 #200

Who said I was "demonizing" him?! xulamaude Dec 2013 #175

I did. nt. polly7 Dec 2013 #183

yes. the statement to stay out of GD with a progressive issue. and said in different ways thru out seabeyond Dec 2013 #164

hello! boston bean Dec 2013 #165

hi, lol. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #170

That's incorrect The2ndWheel Dec 2013 #209

peruse the thread. there is a couple that say, consensus had, none on gd. firstly. and secondly, seabeyond Dec 2013 #219

I'm sorry, but that's utter bullshit. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #245

i have never shied from disagreement. so i hardly see that is an issue for me. nt seabeyond Dec 2013 #247

I told you to stay in HOF if you can't stand open discussion in GD. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #186

Who told you that they didn't want you to post in this thread? boston bean Dec 2013 #190

How many posts do I have in HoF? How many do I have in GD? nt xulamaude Dec 2013 #191

You brought up a case from 7 fucking years ago, redqueen Dec 2013 #195

And no, it's not just women. Men post in HoF, too. nt redqueen Dec 2013 #201

Okay, I thought someone posted that you had to be a woman to be a HOF member. Comrade Grumpy Dec 2013 #223

Oh really? xulamaude Dec 2013 #249

stating i do not mind confrontations suggest to you i do not like confrontations? really? lol seabeyond Dec 2013 #253

He was talking to me, sea xulamaude Dec 2013 #255

are we? well, i am honored, as we are one. lol seabeyond Dec 2013 #258

Are you surprised? redqueen Dec 2013 #114

Not at all. :) xulamaude Dec 2013 #118

the 'false rape accusation' theory heaven05 Dec 2013 #64

The outrage, on both sides, is odd Android3.14 Dec 2013 #68

Is "outrage" about the myth that poor people are lazy odd? redqueen Dec 2013 #81

I am a feminist... Android3.14 Dec 2013 #233

I honestly do not see where you are getting hostility from that. redqueen Dec 2013 #265

The entire tone is hostile Android3.14 Dec 2013 #274

Just now, I used "kindly" sincerely. redqueen Dec 2013 #276

"everyone agrees on almost every point" NoOneMan Dec 2013 #101

No, I do not dispute that DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2013 #72

God I hope not ismnotwasm Dec 2013 #80

I never reported on my rape because I did not think people would believe me. hrmjustin Dec 2013 #84

^^THIS^^ Tuesday Afternoon Dec 2013 #87

. hrmjustin Dec 2013 #88

I'm sorry that happened to you. redqueen Dec 2013 #92

I also was still in the closet to many people at that time and was afraid to come out. hrmjustin Dec 2013 #94

Male victims are silenced by other myths, too. redqueen Dec 2013 #95

Or just plain ignoring them Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #281

I'm really sorry cinnabonbon Dec 2013 #131

The same things occured to me reading that other thread Matariki Dec 2013 #125

So well said. johnp3907 Dec 2013 #132

Well stated Tumbulu Dec 2013 #134

I think it's very dangerous. MineralMan Dec 2013 #142

Unless some troll is posting completely inane comments that I haven't bothered to read... Shandris Dec 2013 #162

It's shorthand really.. boston bean Dec 2013 #169

Ahhh, okay. Thank you for that BostonBean. Shandris Dec 2013 #174

there is a thread about UK stating false claim at .6%. at least two men said this. seabeyond Dec 2013 #177

Thank you Seabeyond Shandris Dec 2013 #181

Well said. historylovr Dec 2013 #176

It happened to my son... jimlup Dec 2013 #184

One difference about rape allegations Jim Lane Dec 2013 #189

Does anyone dispute the fact that the 'false allegations of rape are common' myth is dangerous? etherealtruth Dec 2013 #204

I'm sure that being falsely accused really fucking sucks, too. How does one live that down? nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #208

Of course it "really fucking sucks". boston bean Dec 2013 #214

I am beginning to think the game consists of etherealtruth Dec 2013 #225

step further. i get more pissed at the few false claim than actual act cause it hurts ALL victims seabeyond Dec 2013 #226

Holy putting words in someone else's mouth, Batman. The irony here is incredible. nt Electric Monk Dec 2013 #227

What words were put into someone elses mouth? etherealtruth Dec 2013 #231

Being falsely accused of anything is horrific etherealtruth Dec 2013 #217

Being falsely accused of lying about rape, that sucks too...... boston bean Dec 2013 #229

Without doubt etherealtruth Dec 2013 #230

Agree with OP, but the myth has legs and may not be a myth pediatricmedic Dec 2013 #207

maybe putting the few out there is actually reinforcing a myth instead of their being "legs" hence, seabeyond Dec 2013 #211

I don't think anyone can deny that there are false allegations of rape. The statistics I have seen, madinmaryland Dec 2013 #215

"For no other crime is there so much energy dedicated to focusing on false allegations" davidn3600 Dec 2013 #240

And there it is. You just stepped in it. That's why this was a bad thread from the get-go. Electric Monk Dec 2013 #277

No, have no idea really, not if all these cries I hear about the first amendment having any due Rex Dec 2013 #241

No DonCoquixote Dec 2013 #275

It's dangerous, absolutely. People need to be taught to report a rape immediately after the rape, so Zorra Dec 2013 #279

The other thread wasn't derailed at all Prophet 451 Dec 2013 #280