General Discussion

mike_c

(36,899 posts)

190. agreed-- I'm not a big fan of Clinton, either...

Mon Dec 19, 2011, 05:08 PM

Dec 2011

...but I'll take responsibility for helping to put him in office. Before 2000 I was damned nearly apolitical, other than being a lifelong democratic party voter, not because I really paid much attention but rather, because I was confident in my liberal values and thought that the democratic party was best aligned with my values.

The Bush years, and all the complicit democrats in congress, opened my eyes. Looking back, I would never have voted for Clinton if I knew then what I know now. His continuance of the aggression against Iraq, which was never a threat to the U.S., was enough to warrant that response, frankly. NAFTA, financial deregulation, welfare reform, the failure of health care reform-- all of those are just icing on the cake of half a million Iraqi children dying so that the big dog could make tough in the middle east. Clinton, more than anyone, set up the trajectory to war in Iraq that Bush exploited later.

The thing is, that since 2000 I've come to understand that NONE of the political leadership in this country actually reflects my values-- in fact, most openly repudiate and mock them. I simply cannot understand why I should support any of them if they don't work in my interest.

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This is not a game, people [View all] LuckyTheDog Dec 2011 OP

Obama is still better HockeyMom Dec 2011 #1

this is more key than anything demtenjeep Dec 2011 #4

I prefer 4 more years of stalemate to even one day coalition_unwilling Dec 2011 #57

You're right tawadi Dec 2011 #2

"sitting out the election" Some people may say that here, but I truly believe that when teddy51 Dec 2011 #3

we'll probably need more than votes. MH1 Dec 2011 #7

I will be voting for him as well. n/t teddy51 Dec 2011 #16

Obama will not have i_sometimes Dec 2011 #119

"the machine" ??? Please expand on this. It's not my experience WheelWalker Dec 2011 #139

Excuse me... i_sometimes Dec 2011 #207

I can't see how anyone would sit out the election with both houses of Congress at stake. GoCubsGo Dec 2011 #17

To make a statement and to be true to their values. gateley Dec 2011 #39

Sorry, but those jobs went down the tube with the Bill Clinton NAFTA agreement, as Ross Perot teddy51 Dec 2011 #45

We are in deep shit - no argument from me. Those jobs are gone but with the Republicans gateley Dec 2011 #53

NAFTA was a *DEMOCRATIC* policy, gateley. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #74

no it was not hfojvt Dec 2011 #85

This is why I read DU - to get the real story behind the headlines. Thank you! gtar100 Dec 2011 #99

Well, HERE is the undisputed Video PROOF of the REAL story: bvar22 Dec 2011 #118

Ross Perot, in my mind; greiner3 Dec 2011 #149

Perot was 100% correct on NAFTA; Al Gore was 100% wrong. Until Al can admit his mistake, Romulox Dec 2011 #162

That does NOT discount the FACT that Bill Clinton & The Democratic Party... bvar22 Dec 2011 #186

That was my concern about Hillary, too. After all, the DLC was their baby. nt gateley Dec 2011 #102

I'm afraid that's the "No True Scotsman" fallacy. President Clinton was the leader of the Party, Romulox Dec 2011 #104

I understand that -- and it was wrong. I just think if the Republicans were gateley Dec 2011 #101

Are you a fan of President Obama's expansion of Free Trade Treaties, bvar22 Dec 2011 #187

Don't know where the fuck that question came from, but no, I'm not a fan of anything gateley Dec 2011 #208

Its right up there ^^^ in your post #101 bvar22 Dec 2011 #209

It doesn't say any such thing -- that's what you chose to project and read into it. gateley Dec 2011 #210

George HW bush signed the NAFTA agreement on December 17th 1992 JohnnyRingo Dec 2011 #145

LOL. Nice try at revisionism: "President Bill Clinton - Remarks on the Signing of NAFTA" Romulox Dec 2011 #154

I didn't pose those pix JohnnyRingo Dec 2011 #175

I know you didn't. But your pictures don't show NAFTA's ratification into US law. From wiki: Romulox Dec 2011 #177

This entire thread was spawned by a simple statement you made: JohnnyRingo Dec 2011 #185

Touche' bvar22 Dec 2011 #191

NAFTA was a total Poppy Bush legacy... IthinkThereforeIAM Dec 2011 #92

Thanks for the background info on this. dgibby Dec 2011 #100

No argument other than to say that Bill Clinton was President when NAFTA was passed. n/t teddy51 Dec 2011 #107

And Clinton signed it. And Al Gore campaigned on TV for it. But other than that, NOTHING. Romulox Dec 2011 #111

Poppy Bush *made* Al Gore appear on Larry King Live to debate Ross Perot? That's silly. Romulox Dec 2011 #108

So Poppy Bush and David Rockefeller... IthinkThereforeIAM Dec 2011 #114

Clinton signed it. I just gave you a link to Al Gore *EVANGELIZING* over it. They own it. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #120

It is Right There ^ in the VIDEOS, bvar22 Dec 2011 #125

Can you please explain fast track legislation? intersectionality Dec 2011 #201

This, I can't believe the cognitive dissonance going on siligut Dec 2011 #68

Irony alert! The Ross Perot "giant sucking sound" was a reference to Clinton/Gore's NAFTA. What Romulox Dec 2011 #72

Gee, I didin't know that! gateley Dec 2011 #103

To invoke "giant sucking sound" to argue that "we must vote for Dems" lacks self-awareness Romulox Dec 2011 #105

Well then, have no self-awareness or historical awareness. Okay? gateley Dec 2011 #152

You're hurting the cause you profess to help through this lack of awareness. That's the point. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #156

I'm not hurting anything. Nobody gives a fuck what I say except for people gateley Dec 2011 #157

OK. Spout self-contradictory nonsense all day long, then. None of this matters. Romulox Dec 2011 #160

I don't agree it was an embarrassing mistake, so not going to admit gateley Dec 2011 #163

There's that lack of self-awareness, to which I refer, above. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #165

I posted my response to myself! Ha! Now THAT'S a mistake. gateley Dec 2011 #166

You're coming off as defensive and needy, now. Not attractive! nt Romulox Dec 2011 #169

Again, what do you care? Trying to help me, are you? nt gateley Dec 2011 #171

No... Perot was speaking to GHW Bush in a 1992 debate when he made that famous quote. JohnnyRingo Dec 2011 #146

Bizarre revisionism! He was referring to NAFTA, signed by President Clinton in 1993. Romulox Dec 2011 #164

Have you ever watched Fraggle Rock about how a bill becomes a law? JohnnyRingo Dec 2011 #176

This would be funny, but no, it's sad. I gave you the Wiki entry on the subject, above. You could Romulox Dec 2011 #180

And you mean SCHOOLHOUSE Rock. nt Romulox Dec 2011 #182

Obama has my vote BUT! sce56 Dec 2011 #143

Both houses of Congress AND the next Supreme Court nominees Mister Ed Dec 2011 #44

"the most powerful person on Earth"? bvar22 Dec 2011 #194

Post removed Post removed Dec 2011 #69

Evidence that DU led the charge? Luminous Animal Dec 2011 #83

DU was the site of many things, and many argued about the potential consquences. Capn Sunshine Dec 2011 #188

"I'm going to stay home to teach the Democrats a lesson!" bvar22 Dec 2011 #198

Ridiculous kenfrequed Dec 2011 #96

Thanks-very well said! tfsoccer Dec 2011 #117

Thanks kenfrequed Dec 2011 #155

If you have any doubts that Obama is doing everything he can with constitutional constraints, no_hypocrisy Dec 2011 #5

Good point about the GOP being helpless to block Obama's military decisions Mister Ed Dec 2011 #50

You are wrong about why Obama left Iraq. He was forced to, because his coalition_unwilling Dec 2011 #58

President Obama merely complied with Iraq SOFA negotiated by Bush-the-Lesser: bvar22 Dec 2011 #129

Obama did everything he could druidity33 Dec 2011 #172

This talking point does not make a lot of sense treestar Dec 2011 #199

It's not a talking point, it's a fact: Obama admin attempted to renegotiate SOFA JackRiddler Jan 2012 #212

If you want to persuade people to your side, ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #6

Yes, I was going to mention that, thanks for saving me the trouble. sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #13

You don't have to support him LuckyTheDog Dec 2011 #28

OK, what DID you expect? LuckyTheDog Dec 2011 #25

I expected JEB Dec 2011 #32

In other words... LuckyTheDog Dec 2011 #36

I guess JEB Dec 2011 #42

Those headwinds were not overpowering when Obama came in with a mandate... wakemewhenitsover Dec 2011 #61

Exactly Charlemagne Dec 2011 #116

Running to the right of REAGAN on many issues Doctor_J Dec 2011 #158

Since he and Clinton ran the same campaign, ZombieHorde Dec 2011 #47

Excellent post. n/t myrna minx Dec 2011 #64

I expected for him to frame the his agenda with democratic arguments and not myrna minx Dec 2011 #63

well yes - that was his biggest failing that he certainly did have control over Douglas Carpenter Dec 2011 #70

Persuasion? Choice A: Pres. Obama. Choice B: a repubican. How can you NOT be persuaded? 66 dmhlt Dec 2011 #33

Exactly (nt) LuckyTheDog Dec 2011 #206

He needs a chance Old Codger Dec 2011 #8

Yes, and with the expiring Bush tax cuts... IthinkThereforeIAM Dec 2011 #95

Please stop spewing that canard Doctor_J Dec 2011 #161

He has Old Codger Dec 2011 #168

Newt Gingrich's America get the red out Dec 2011 #9

obama is the lamest democratic party president in my memory... mike_c Dec 2011 #10

You and 536 others like you gave us Bush in 2000. On behalf of the thousands ... 11 Bravo Dec 2011 #23

in fact I voted for Al Gore in 2000.... mike_c Dec 2011 #24

That was a really Charlemagne Dec 2011 #122

The Supreme Court gave us Bush in 2000 sabrina 1 Dec 2011 #48

A big thanks, sabrina.. russspeakeasy Dec 2011 #81

Yep. It was a coup that installed BUSH/CHENEY, nothing else. bobthedrummer Dec 2011 #124

You don't get to pin the Iraq war on people who didn't vote for Gore MNBrewer Dec 2011 #76

Nope Charlemagne Dec 2011 #121

Wrong. Fraud in Florida and an unconstitutional SC decision did that. JackRiddler Jan 2012 #213

Newt thanks you (nt) LuckyTheDog Dec 2011 #29

On the day of the end of the Iraq war, one of his top campaign promises Bolo Boffin Dec 2011 #35

It's not over, it's just privatized now. Zhade Dec 2011 #59

after prolonging it unnecessarily for three more years...? mike_c Dec 2011 #193

Really? How long is your memory? frazzled Dec 2011 #79

Then why worry about the people who don't cheerlead for Obama? djean111 Dec 2011 #94

No one asked you to work for him frazzled Dec 2011 #141

Is he more lame than Bill Clinton? JohnnyRingo Dec 2011 #136

agreed-- I'm not a big fan of Clinton, either... mike_c Dec 2011 #190

Since you don't care for Democrats who have served, and you despise all Republicans... JohnnyRingo Dec 2011 #195

Thanks for Bush too, Mike KrevichNavel Dec 2011 #147

If Gingrinch takes power, the USA will cease to exist. roamer65 Dec 2011 #11

because the sky will have fallen on it BOG PERSON Dec 2011 #14

I think USA already cease to exist. Bryn Dec 2011 #184

I've been disappointed because I expected him to at least try n/t inademv Dec 2011 #12

that attitude is a disaster Enrique Dec 2011 #15

Really? LuckyTheDog Dec 2011 #26

"I get that" Skittles Dec 2011 #18

you're right that it's not a game ... BOG PERSON Dec 2011 #19

+1 Charlemagne Dec 2011 #126

I feel bad for people that held Obama up on such a high pedestal like some God. Newsflash: FarLeftFist Dec 2011 #20

+1 boxman15 Dec 2011 #27

So the only reason Charlemagne Dec 2011 #127

But Fox News said he was the most liberal senator in the history of the country! JohnnyRingo Dec 2011 #148

We have a couple other REALLY BIG challenges in the coming year - both houses of the Congress housewolf Dec 2011 #21

WE have the solution now donttazemebro Dec 2011 #22

Let's play monopoly unionworks Dec 2011 #30

Lube or dry? Take it dry. You might just get mad enough... TheMadMonk Dec 2011 #31

Well, I am not dumb enought to sit out the election or vote for a Republican. RebelOne Dec 2011 #34

I like Hillary as well, and would be glad to see her in the WH, but here's the problem: JohnnyRingo Dec 2011 #150

We are not happy, but you are correct, Gingrich or Romney would destroy this country..nt. Stuart G Dec 2011 #37

k&r Liberal_in_LA Dec 2011 #38

I've been disappointed in Obama at times Terra Alta Dec 2011 #40

Obama could care less about you or your family. lib2DaBone Dec 2011 #43

And Newt, Romney, etc. DOES care about me and my family? Terra Alta Dec 2011 #46

You're spot on madokie Dec 2011 #41

"This is not a game, people" unkachuck Dec 2011 #49

Vote for a Repuke/ No way. Write in Dennis? You Bet. jerseyjack Dec 2011 #51

Same thing LuckyTheDog Dec 2011 #204

We will all vote for Obama. JDPriestly Dec 2011 #52

Thank You So Very Much Sherman A1 Dec 2011 #54

Indeed, there is a time when holding one's nose and coalition_unwilling Dec 2011 #55

Yes it appears that Obama is the best butthead to vote for, of the two parties. However, if we... webDude Dec 2011 #56

Yep Charlemagne Dec 2011 #130

This 'lesser evil' argument is getting stale Betty Karlson Dec 2011 #60

I will vote for him even if I have to hold my nose and carry a barf bag. hobbit709 Dec 2011 #62

LoL sellitman Dec 2011 #112

Like Obama said, don't compare him to perfection. Compare him to the alternative. lunatica Dec 2011 #65

I expected him to overcome the filibuster since it was easily done using reconciliation. eomer Dec 2011 #66

I'll vote for him, hell, what choice do I have? Faith No More Dec 2011 #67

But it is a game,a DU game. sufrommich Dec 2011 #71

That veto pen must be really heavy. Poor guy. n/t lumberjack_jeff Dec 2011 #73

Thank you advocate for gridlock and the 1% hegemony... Moostache Dec 2011 #75

In some ways it is a game. Deep13 Dec 2011 #77

I'll say it again, because it bears repeating: Obama is the best we are going to get Taverner Dec 2011 #78

He doesn't need your money Charlemagne Dec 2011 #131

Absolutely Taverner Dec 2011 #203

oh that is just hilarious hfojvt Dec 2011 #80

Thanks hfojvt... well said... russspeakeasy Dec 2011 #84

+1 deutsey Dec 2011 #87

Well said, but I HOPE there's something you/we don't know... tfsoccer Dec 2011 #113

This post Charlemagne Dec 2011 #133

You're leaving out so much there treestar Dec 2011 #144

Including a government shut down. great white snark Dec 2011 #153

Well said. Maven Dec 2011 #200

How about just once... SixthSense Dec 2011 #82

Where's the source for those? They are great! Luminous Animal Dec 2011 #89

democracy was supposed to prevent this shit, right? blaming the politicians doesn't help. certainot Dec 2011 #97

I learned my lesson in 1980 corkhead Dec 2011 #86

Have DU'er advocated sitting 2012 out? I haven't seen that... Scuba Dec 2011 #88

Several in this thread alone have advocated that LuckyTheDog Dec 2011 #205

Here is a real dose of reality nadinbrzezinski Dec 2011 #90

That should be an OP hifiguy Dec 2011 #142

Sorry, thrid party... joeybee12 Dec 2011 #91

i agree. and IMO there will be a shitload more trolls this cycle, internet and paid radio callers certainot Dec 2011 #93

Like FDR, Obama needed to stand up LOUD against GOP's Blocking! tfsoccer Dec 2011 #98

Obama not addressing ANY of the needs of 99% to kiss the bums of the 1% isn't a game either. Lionessa Dec 2011 #106

Obama should throw us a bone Charlemagne Dec 2011 #109

YES! tfsoccer Dec 2011 #110

Right on. That's much of the problem I have with Obama mvd Dec 2011 #183

Obama has my vote too! liberal N proud Dec 2011 #115

I'm more worried about Puzzledtraveller Dec 2011 #123

I am disappointed in his lack of Autumn Dec 2011 #128

If you DONT live in a swing state Charlemagne Dec 2011 #132

This is becoming repetitious zipplewrath Dec 2011 #134

Who has ever advocated voting for the GOP? CrispyQ Dec 2011 #135

Nothing Obama has done is anywhere near as bad as what the GOP contenders say they will do. n/t Ian David Dec 2011 #137

The choice is really between dying slowly or dying quickly Vinnie From Indy Dec 2011 #138

I will in all likelihood vote for him hifiguy Dec 2011 #140

Some clarification is needed, please. truedelphi Dec 2011 #151

Sorry but I will not vote for a so-called "lesser of two evils" Xicano Dec 2011 #159

A very valid point slay Dec 2011 #181

Thank you for saying what needs to be said. nt FLyellowdog Dec 2011 #167

This just smacks my gob. I responded with a PARAPHRASED gateley Dec 2011 #170

"Vote for Democrats or else you'll hear the giant sucking sound" = LOL for anyone who remembers '93. Romulox Dec 2011 #174

All that I expected was for him to at least make an attempt to do the things he said he would do. bowens43 Dec 2011 #173

I'm not sure just voting against the republicans is a winning tactic slay Dec 2011 #178

Remember why people voted for Nader because there was no difference between Gore and Bush? wildeyed Dec 2011 #179

It's a sad state of affairs to have to remind people of the obvious. Phlem Dec 2011 #189

I registered to vote this year. Crippled or no, I'm getting there to vote for Obama. n/t Akoto Dec 2011 #192

You speak... deathrind Dec 2011 #196

I'll vote for him....... vi5 Dec 2011 #197

Amen. silverweb Dec 2011 #202

This thread needs an encore nt siligut Jan 2012 #211