General Discussion

billh58

(6,655 posts)

12. I believe that the

Fri Jan 24, 2014, 04:08 PM

Jan 2014

right-wing (ALEC, the Koch Bros, the NRA, the Republican Party) has framed this battle the same way they framed the abortion fight. The terms "anti-gun," and "pro-gun" are meaningless but very effective in stirring up emotions on both sides of the argument. This reduces the issue to a very Republican "you're either with us, or you're against us" frame of argument and prevents compromise. The result is, at this point, a perception that "anti-gun" means the repeal of the Second Amendment, and "pro-gun" means total alignment with the NRA and a "cold-dead-hands" stance.

The correct framework for solving the gun violence epidemic in this nation should address the gun holder, AND the gun. The discussions should include qualifications for possession of a gun to include (among other factors) universal background checks for mental fitness, and any history of criminal or anti-social behavior. The type of weapons suitable for civilian use should be determined and agreed upon by reasonable persons from both sides of the argument, with a particular focus on handguns -- especially the concealed carry of handguns in the public venue.

The illegal possession and carry of guns under any circumstances should result in automatic jail time, and harsher penalties when guns are used in the commission of a crime (extended minimum sentences).

It's not the gun, it's the idiot with the gun. After we have begun to solve the gun violence problem in the USA, we can then work on knives, forks, axes, swords, swimming pools, etc. Automobile deaths are already being addressed and are falling, and gun deaths are forecast to exceed automobile deaths in just a couple of years.

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William Rivers Pitt | An Open Letter to Lovers of the Gun [View all] CreekDog Jan 2014 OP

You are correct Mr. Pitt, but the Democratic elected/candidates need to drop this, Todays_Illusion Jan 2014 #1

Hey, CreekDog posts a gun thread in GD! Skip Intro Jan 2014 #2

U Mad Bro? WilliamPitt Jan 2014 #4

nah, not really Skip Intro Jan 2014 #7

LOL, that's funny CreekDog Jan 2014 #44

LMAO Jamaal510 Jan 2014 #223

I like cjeekdog! n/t JTFrog Jan 2014 #5

"I like CjeekDgg" Electric Monk Jan 2014 #6

Great pic of billh58 Jan 2014 #19

Is your primary concern the "rules" (which I care about more than you, but I digress...) or... CreekDog Jan 2014 #25

Skip, I'll bet in the past 5 years, you haven't gotten as many recommends as Will's column here did CreekDog Jan 2014 #256

I was going to post this WilliamPitt Jan 2014 #3

The conservatives will alert on it Cali_Democrat Jan 2014 #9

they have, there are two alerts on this already CreekDog Jan 2014 #22

I prefer to think of it as a "school shooting" thread primarily and... ReasonableToo Jan 2014 #145

The rules are pretty clear. Skip Intro Jan 2014 #11

you know the big rule --help Democrats, remember that one? CreekDog Jan 2014 #21

You want to talk about rules? Skip Intro Jan 2014 #23

I could be insulted, but you're nicer to me than you have ever been to Obama CreekDog Jan 2014 #28

You can also be insuting, but that ain't news to anybody, is it? n/t Skip Intro Jan 2014 #40

Not to Obama, not to Trayvon Martin... CreekDog Jan 2014 #41

Helping democrats would entail... Lost_Count Jan 2014 #118

you know what Will? CreekDog Jan 2014 #80

Agreed. lisby Jan 2014 #183

Guns kill people. ileus Jan 2014 #8

Some people ..... oldhippie Jan 2014 #186

Dear Mr. Pitt, Skip Intro Jan 2014 #10

OK WilliamPitt Jan 2014 #13

Well, sir Skip Intro Jan 2014 #18

"I didn't see anything in your piece about securing guns, btw" WilliamPitt Jan 2014 #24

There was a sentence. My mistake on that. Skip Intro Jan 2014 #36

Uh oh. You said "black and white". he's going to call that racist. CreekDog Jan 2014 #38

a friend trying to follow the link to your article said the website appears to be blocked in Canada Voice for Peace Jan 2014 #120

:facepalm: jeff47 Jan 2014 #26

Well, if folks didn't blame/complain about all gun owners what would they have to do? The Straight Story Jan 2014 #27

Then why don't you solve the problem? jeff47 Jan 2014 #31

I don't own a gun. The Straight Story Jan 2014 #39

Argument is still the same. jeff47 Jan 2014 #42

I don't like drunk drivers. Let's ban alcohol too. The Straight Story Jan 2014 #43

Still doesn't change the argument. jeff47 Jan 2014 #46

We must ban cars. Think how many lives would be saved! Skip Intro Jan 2014 #48

Cars are regulated already CreekDog Jan 2014 #57

Do you value cars over the lives of children? n/t Skip Intro Jan 2014 #60

how many different games are you trying to play in this one thread? CreekDog Jan 2014 #77

CreekDog, you mad bro? Skip Intro Jan 2014 #84

It's not medicine you're dishing, it's something else. lisby Jan 2014 #185

What guns do you want to ban? Duckhunter935 Jan 2014 #89

Aaaaaand this is where the argument breaks down LittleBlue Jan 2014 #70

I hear the same thing from right wingers RetroLounge Jan 2014 #96

you just did CreekDog Jan 2014 #105

LOL! RetroLounge Jan 2014 #108

If we are going to ban cars, we have to ban ALL modes of transportation, including ALL horses. madinmaryland Jan 2014 #97

both alcohol and motor vehicles are highly regulated. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #49

Really? Do you have to keep alcohol locked up? Can anyone buy it? The Straight Story Jan 2014 #52

I did not say "regulated identically" did I? Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #55

45 million plus own guns. Do you favor daily house to house checks by the government? The Straight Story Jan 2014 #61

Actually 40 to 45 million people in America own a handgun. 70 to 80 million own ... spin Jan 2014 #229

You're playing chess with a pigeon Electric Monk Jan 2014 #53

Due to the enactment of strict laws billh58 Jan 2014 #50

Already less than one percent of people with guns use them to harm others The Straight Story Jan 2014 #56

and what is the percentage of people who don't have guns that use guns to harm others? CreekDog Jan 2014 #59

If you inlcude tax payers who fund our military and vote? The Straight Story Jan 2014 #63

don't try to change the subject CreekDog Jan 2014 #71

I agree with your assertion that billh58 Jan 2014 #73

That's what most Second Amendment supporters advocate, UBCs and harsh penalties for lawbreakers. NYC_SKP Jan 2014 #233

Perfect example of the same arguments used by the right-wing RetroLounge Jan 2014 #95

So, in other words, the logic is sound so you play the 'rw does it too!' card The Straight Story Jan 2014 #125

Well, unless one paid attention to the history of one posting the same right-wing arguments RetroLounge Jan 2014 #192

"we'll solve it our way." former9thward Jan 2014 #62

Because we don't have the power. Yet. jeff47 Jan 2014 #65

The number of people owning guns is not dropping. former9thward Jan 2014 #72

There's a reason I said "households" and not "number of guns sold". jeff47 Jan 2014 #75

Yet? former9thward Jan 2014 #83

Finally a breath of fresh air, a gun owner that is honest! A Simple Game Jan 2014 #101

"the tipping point is fast approaching" former9thward Jan 2014 #102

"historically the vast majority of guns in America were used by their owners to rob people..." cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #126

With a user name like yours you should be able to figure it out. A Simple Game Jan 2014 #190

Cool story, bro. From a Gallup poll LittleBlue Jan 2014 #79

And already covered that. jeff47 Jan 2014 #81

"I covered that" LittleBlue Jan 2014 #82

The "number of households with guns" is completely irrelevant. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #132

What I find really amusing here lisby Jan 2014 #187

SLAM! Thanks for the poll, LittleBlue. n/t Skip Intro Jan 2014 #100

Interesting. NYC_SKP Jan 2014 #137

Nor have I ... yuiyoshida Jan 2014 #220

Hey! NYC_SKP Jan 2014 #221

oh!!! yuiyoshida Jan 2014 #228

If we're already below 50% what's your holdup? AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #158

How was it determined that the number of homes with firearms has dropped? ... spin Jan 2014 #231

What do you mean, 'if'. AtheistCrusader Jan 2014 #157

"it is a right" That has been obscenely interpreted by the NRA and their gun-loving supporters... madinmaryland Jan 2014 #94

Always with the 'gun loving' from some folks, is that because The Straight Story Jan 2014 #133

What "right" are you referring to, my friend? The bastardized "right" that says that you can kill madinmaryland Jan 2014 #154

What "right" says "well-regulated? What the fuck does that even mean? cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #211

With the exeption of the one on my side, all of mine ARE locked up. oneshooter Jan 2014 #64

You're the one trying to keep the guns. jeff47 Jan 2014 #68

You're not answering the question. oneshooter Jan 2014 #91

Make it a legal requirement with severe penalties for failure to comply. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #179

And how do you propose to prove"failure to comply". oneshooter Jan 2014 #194

Well, lets see, I suppose in Moar Gunz Wurld, door to door daily searches. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #195

So you only have insults and ignorence to answer with. oneshooter Jan 2014 #197

"So you only have insults and ignorence to answer with." Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #199

Is it wrong to laugh at the way he spelled 'ignorance'? Electric Monk Jan 2014 #209

yes it is wrong, very very wrong. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #210

Says the guy who spells more "moar", guns "gunz", and world "wurld". Irony you can cut with a knife. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #222

What do I want you to do? rdharma Jan 2014 #230

So you carry a gun while alerting gun threads in GD CreekDog Jan 2014 #245

In my own home, on my own property, I shall do as I please. oneshooter Jan 2014 #249

Some here think you answer to them, you know. Skip Intro Jan 2014 #252

"Childish games"? That's hilarious, coming from someone who was caught red-handed alert stalking Electric Monk Jan 2014 #262

Please tone down your paranoia, okay? CreekDog Jan 2014 #255

Why, don't you believe that they can read for themselves? oneshooter Jan 2014 #260

THIS^^^^ calimary Jan 2014 #90

+100. Excellent post! n/t Skip Intro Jan 2014 #33

No true Scottish gun owners... LanternWaste Jan 2014 #30

Secure your guns abelenkpe Jan 2014 #67

With the exception of the one on my side, all of my firearms are locked up. oneshooter Jan 2014 #76

You walk around with a gun? IveWornAHundredPants Jan 2014 #140

And that is part of the problem. oneshooter Jan 2014 #148

When you end your posts with "What else do you want me to do?" IveWornAHundredPants Jan 2014 #150

You are talking to someone who places more value on his tools than on human life. Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #189

I place a value on my tools, the thiefs decided that the value was too high for them. oneshooter Jan 2014 #196

I own nothing I'm prepared to kill for. Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #212

Even your own life? n/t oneshooter Jan 2014 #225

My life I will defend and if necessary, kill to preserve. Starboard Tack Jan 2014 #232

Like gun toting, gun promotion, and gun profiteering are so progressive, oneshooter? Hoyt Jan 2014 #203

Again your personnel hatred of firearms and firearm owners colors your every post. oneshooter Jan 2014 #226

Why does this common sense from you engender such rage? lisby Jan 2014 #184

I know you've always felt this way, Will, tavalon Jan 2014 #207

I like cjeekdog! RetroLounge Jan 2014 #93

I believe that the billh58 Jan 2014 #12

"and gun deaths are forecast to exceed gun deaths in just a couple of years." sked14 Jan 2014 #14

Thanks for the catch. billh58 Jan 2014 #15

Actually lancer78 Jan 2014 #205

There is that NRA lie billh58 Jan 2014 #208

I'm just going to say it…The students died doing what the gun user loved most…using a gun to shoot.. Tikki Jan 2014 #16

To the die-hard billh58 Jan 2014 #17

Life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness SCantiGOP Jan 2014 #34

This. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #20

You are correct that billh58 Jan 2014 #32

Very interesting. Thanks. JDPriestly Jan 2014 #35

And still, their gun death rate is higher than neighboring countries CreekDog Jan 2014 #214

Too true, billh58 Jan 2014 #215

Yes I agree with your posts CreekDog Jan 2014 #236

Thats because lancer78 Jan 2014 #206

If anyone ever gets a chance to see Mike Daisey perform his new show, The Story of the Gun, mnhtnbb Jan 2014 #29

How do you get someone who doesn't want to feel like they need a gun... L0oniX Jan 2014 #37

You are not going to get anywhere with most of this group when it comes to name calling and insults Packerowner740 Jan 2014 #162

Rule Number One grantcart Jan 2014 #45

I like cars wercal Jan 2014 #47

2 sentances. 1 great point. Captain Stern Jan 2014 #113

i keep two cars hidden under my coat tiny elvis Jan 2014 #169

Imagine no guns. Then, imagine no cars. Martin Eden Jan 2014 #178

My gunz are kept in a safe. Always. Glad I could help. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #51

Good for you. Surely you would support laws requiring your excellent gun practices. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #58

I do wholeheartedly, and have stated as much many times. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #69

Always in a safe, eh? Cali_Democrat Jan 2014 #74

I was in the house alone. Dorner's truck was abandoned half a mile away. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #87

It's OK if you were home alone and scared. Cali_Democrat Jan 2014 #88

No, I don't have that issue. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #104

How is it? beevul Jan 2014 #112

He was doing his level best to call me a coward without committing his marbles to the game. cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #122

"Most gun owners are scared of their own shadow" seveneyes Jan 2014 #116

See my post #122. n/t cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #123

Second request for link. Hello? Cali_Democrat? You there? Skip Intro Jan 2014 #240

Massively excellent find. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #180

Massively. In fact, the two of you are so massively excellent, I can't posit how you manage to wrap cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #191

They're Meta dead-enders playing a tired game. Skip Intro Jan 2014 #239

It is not the anti-gun people who are going to make this right. It is the pro-gun people... Aldo Leopold Jan 2014 #54

My gun is secure LittleBlue Jan 2014 #66

Man, internet "Democrats" sure are a lot different than real world Democrats MO_Moderate Jan 2014 #78

How so? red dog 1 Jan 2014 #99

you would know nt NoGOPZone Jan 2014 #131

Gun ownership practices haven't changed that much over 3-4 years aikoaiko Jan 2014 #85

Yeah, the gun has nothing to do with it. It's the media. RetroLounge Jan 2014 #98

I didn't say that guns didn't have anything to do with the shootings. aikoaiko Jan 2014 #103

MOAR GUNZ! RetroLounge Jan 2014 #107

I love it. aikoaiko Jan 2014 #110

Retro Can Do Much Better HangOnKids Jan 2014 #164

He gave as good as he got CreekDog Jan 2014 #216

I don't have anything to prove. aikoaiko Jan 2014 #224

It's going nowhere thank you very much CreekDog Jan 2014 #235

I'm wondering what the spelling problem has to do with the discussion... cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #124

lmgtfy Electric Monk Jan 2014 #129

+100 n/t billh58 Jan 2014 #134

So you're saying that if you heard someone say "More guns", your Mind's Eye would see "Moar gunz"? cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #135

Seriously? If you've never heard a 2nd Am supporter say that, you haven't been paying attention. Electric Monk Jan 2014 #139

I must be blind. Could you point me to the "MOAR GUNS" part of that post? cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #141

Read the part in bold where LaPierre said "the problem is there weren't enough ... guns" Electric Monk Jan 2014 #143

So in this case, the ellipsis is your friend... the quote WASN'T "there weren't enough guns". cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #146

I skipped that part because it's irrelevant, since the "good guys" gun ended in the "bad guys" hands Electric Monk Jan 2014 #147

Well, it's a free country (mostly) so between cleaning and polishing your gun RetroLounge Jan 2014 #193

So let's say a Liberal gun owner agrees with your message. dilby Jan 2014 #86

Righteous rant Nt hack89 Jan 2014 #92

Is the Guns Dogs forum the third place for guns, now? Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #106

Did I post this thread? WilliamPitt Jan 2014 #111

It would seem they'd rather you not write about it at all, anywhere, ever. It offends their Electric Monk Jan 2014 #119

Will Pitt: "I was going to post this..." Skip Intro Jan 2014 #130

Yeah, kind of drains the "moral" swamp of this OP. Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #136

Wow you are brave HangOnKids Jan 2014 #165

Some come hear to laugh, some come to hate. Compassion? Not so much. Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #177

You came here and criticized Will Pitt for my post here on DU CreekDog Jan 2014 #219

I knew Mr. Pitt wrote it, oh clever one; the fact you posted it... Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #238

The only thing you aren't playing in this thread is "dumb" CreekDog Jan 2014 #244

You need to calm down & take less personal interest in me. Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #246

I think CreekDog seems plenty calm, and is taking an appropriate amount of interest Electric Monk Jan 2014 #251

Feel the love, you say? Is it real or is it Memorex? Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #253

One gun worshiper stands alone. I like the whole solo cowboy self-aggrandizing thing. DisgustipatedinCA Jan 2014 #241

Not into rodeos. Re-read the "piece:" Same ol' attack & smear. Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #247

Hey get it right, he was going to post this but did not CreekDog Jan 2014 #218

His screen name is in honor of Eleanor Roosevelt's gun CreekDog Jan 2014 #217

I agree, I was surprised to find gun related user names here. Seems odd. Hoyt Jan 2014 #227

I see another of the gun-crazy culture warriors has rung in, who is more concerned about their gunz madinmaryland Jan 2014 #114

Oh brother. What a crock. Skip Intro Jan 2014 #127

That's the problem, my friend. How do we deal with the issue madinmaryland Jan 2014 #153

Sad discussion of this issue has been injected with such bullshit. Skip Intro Jan 2014 #156

Really? madinmaryland Jan 2014 #159

The name is Pitt. Kingofalldems Jan 2014 #121

+100. n/t Skip Intro Jan 2014 #128

HUGE K & R !!! - Thank You !!! WillyT Jan 2014 #109

+ 1000 red dog 1 Jan 2014 #117

When assholes are outlawed, only outlaws will have assholes... red dog 1 Jan 2014 #115

I am neutral on guns yeoman6987 Jan 2014 #138

Could it be the No Gun Zones are designated as such because they'd be likely rampage targets? Electric Monk Jan 2014 #142

Could be. Straw Man Jan 2014 #173

"If we make the United States a 'No Gun Zone' will people follow the law?" red dog 1 Jan 2014 #176

You mean like the Navy yard? Doctor_J Jan 2014 #200

Pretty elementary. The more guns in a society the higher the gun violence. ErikJ Jan 2014 #144

Then why has the murder rate in the US plummeted while the number of guns... friendly_iconoclast Jan 2014 #149

Gun Violence Study Links State Levels Of Gun Ownership And Homicide ErikJ Jan 2014 #151

They mention only gun homicides; do other types not matter? friendly_iconoclast Jan 2014 #152

What utter shit. flvegan Jan 2014 #155

This message was self-deleted by its author HangOnKids Jan 2014 #167

You know he won't answer that. Nor will Geekdog. N/T cherokeeprogressive Jan 2014 #170

It is about a gun culture that has gone horribly wrong. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #198

Have you joined the NRA? WilliamPitt Jan 2014 #201

I absolutely have not joined the NRA, and never will. flvegan Jan 2014 #237

"Are you now or have you ever been..." nt Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #248

I think the standards required to be a "legal" gun owner are too lax CreekDog Jan 2014 #257

gun nuts are the biggest cowards on the planet Skittles Jan 2014 #160

This comment is really useful in this discussion. Packerowner740 Jan 2014 #163

I wasn't trying to be USEFUL Skittles Jan 2014 #166

Yeah I can see that "I wasn't trying to be useful" Packerowner740 Jan 2014 #168

oh please Skittles Jan 2014 #171

Doubling down, good tactic Packerowner740 Jan 2014 #172

zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz Skittles Jan 2014 #174

"Keep your security gun tight" Packerowner740 Jan 2014 #175

They won't believe you. They're creating new vistas of reality! Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #243

I tend to stay out of these debates. davidthegnome Jan 2014 #161

In a society flooded with unregulated gunz a bully problem is a gun problem. Warren Stupidity Jan 2014 #181

That's it, what you said. n/t Whisp Jan 2014 #234

K&r... spanone Jan 2014 #182

What an enlightening thread ..... oldhippie Jan 2014 #188

There's going to be a special report on kids and guns on ABC's 20/20 this Friday. factsarenotfair Jan 2014 #202

I plan on watching. Previews include daddies teaching their little kids to blast away with AR15s at Hoyt Jan 2014 #204

Just like the KKK -- billh58 Jan 2014 #213

Your post is why few take gun control setiously. nt Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #242

your posts on this topic and your screen name honoring Eleanor Roosevelt's gun are why few CreekDog Jan 2014 #258

Oh! Creekdog. We have to quit meeting like this. Eleanors38 Jan 2014 #259

K&R Chorophyll Jan 2014 #250

The rights of non- gun owners mstinamotorcity2 Jan 2014 #254

K&R Exactly like Wall St investors. raouldukelives Jan 2014 #261