General Discussion

Laelth

(32,017 posts)

138. I admit that I am not terribly interested in efficiency.

Thu Mar 6, 2014, 05:53 PM

Mar 2014

I am, for better or for worse, and ethically-driven creature. That said, the "alternatives" you note in this thread all sound like liberalism to me. None of them proposes to do away with capitalism. None of them proposes state ownership of all property (socialism). None of them proposes all property owned by a noble class (feudalism). They're nothing new (these proposals). They're all liberalism (i.e. highly regulated capitalism that seeks to insure that a society's wealth is justly distributed to all members of said society).

No, my point in this thread is that we look stupid and naive when we attack capitalism, itself. Most people I know who call themselves socialists, for example, are really liberals. They don't want state ownership of all property and state control of every aspect of a person's life, i.e. socialism. Rather, what most alleged "socialists" want is liberalism, i.e. highly-regulated capitalism.

I suspect you are one of those people. Cheers!

-Laelth

Edit history

Please sign in to view edit histories.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

382 replies

= new reply since forum marked as read

Highlight:

Capitalism is NOT a dirty word. [View all] Laelth Mar 2014 OP

Fuck that NoOneMan Mar 2014 #1

LOL. Laelth Mar 2014 #4

The argument was without merit NoOneMan Mar 2014 #11

It doesn't bother me. Laelth Mar 2014 #26

To an incredibly weak statement NoOneMan Mar 2014 #27

I agree completely with your OP JaneyVee Mar 2014 #152

That's it in a nut-shell. Thanks. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #200

It's that "unregulated" capitalism that is the problem. kentuck Mar 2014 #233

FDR and LBJ proved that capitalism can, in fact, be regulated. Laelth Mar 2014 #345

All FDR and LBJ proved is that capitalism can be regulated TEMPORARILY, Raksha Mar 2014 #352

I don't disagree, per se. Laelth Mar 2014 #357

agreed. capitalism is about profit over resources Whisp Mar 2014 #276

I hear what you're saying Laelth, however, loudsue Mar 2014 #2

So trashing it publicly will get the slower students to re-think it and do what exactly? LionsTigersRedWings Mar 2014 #12

Change the way this country lets it run rampant over people, the environment, loudsue Mar 2014 #22

So you would like to see what to OP talks about, Capitalism with liberal laws in place to LionsTigersRedWings Mar 2014 #25

Yep n/t loudsue Mar 2014 #46

Won't work lark Mar 2014 #74

Have you considered it's the political apparatus and not the economic apparatus that's to blame? kristopher Mar 2014 #85

In the future everything not prohibited will be mandatory Fumesucker Mar 2014 #223

Mandatory voting is the best tool for ensuring a democracy that functions. kristopher Mar 2014 #225

I don't think it would make much if any difference in our propaganda drenched society Fumesucker Mar 2014 #235

That is, by FAR, the lesser of two evils. kristopher Mar 2014 #237

How do you know it will be "a small fine"? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #238

I'm sorry... kristopher Mar 2014 #239

You made a statement and now don't want to back it up? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #241

No, I don't want to back it up. kristopher Mar 2014 #242

I thought Australia was doing quite well with compulsory voting. Ed Suspicious Mar 2014 #252

Sorry to burst your bubble, but . . . . Tony Abbott hatrack Mar 2014 #322

OK, but what alternative do we propose? Laelth Mar 2014 #29

We ARE proposing something as an alternative. Where have you been? loudsue Mar 2014 #43

Indeed. I agree with all that you propose. Laelth Mar 2014 #81

I thought the original post might have been satire PATRICK Mar 2014 #278

Yep, 1950s talking points... Raksha Mar 2014 #353

Capitalism would work splendidly if only if weren't what it is. delrem Mar 2014 #173

Socialism hasn't actually been tried. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #84

I have read Bakunin, and I have heard that argument many times. Laelth Mar 2014 #114

What Republicans seem to forget... NancyDL Mar 2014 #130

Well, that's your head WELL above the parapet. sibelian Mar 2014 #3

I can withstand the barrage. Laelth Mar 2014 #13

The alternative is to take from the rich, and give to the poor .... oldhippie Mar 2014 #24

That's the definition of liberalism. Laelth Mar 2014 #35

See? You're trashing socialism. It's not black & white. That is why people need to re-think loudsue Mar 2014 #32

I am trashing socialism, yes. Laelth Mar 2014 #45

I agree with that 100%. So...capitalism doesn't need you to speak up for it... loudsue Mar 2014 #51

Capitalism in this country HAS gone bad. Laelth Mar 2014 #60

No it DOESN'T mean state ownership of all property, that's COMMUNISM. sibelian Mar 2014 #52

The U.K. is a capitalist society. Laelth Mar 2014 #64

Yes, OK fair enough, the beef isn't worth chewing. sibelian Mar 2014 #71

LOL. Cheers, my friend. Laelth Mar 2014 #87

Huh? tea and oranges Mar 2014 #180

Perhaps I erred in my wording. Laelth Mar 2014 #220

Sigh! tea and oranges Mar 2014 #243

"If only capitalism didn't produce capitalists...".... socialist_n_TN Mar 2014 #245

I don't know. Laelth Mar 2014 #256

Have You Not Noticed the Gov't of Australia's Gone Right Wing? tea and oranges Mar 2014 #259

Its not right wing as we know it. Notafraidtoo Mar 2014 #277

As in the economic decision to go full speed ahead tea and oranges Mar 2014 #284

Australian Liberalism? Fairgo Mar 2014 #307

Thanks for the tip. Laelth Mar 2014 #309

So you telling me that the Norther European SOCIAL DEMOCRACIES nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #109

They can call themselves socialist all they want. Laelth Mar 2014 #132

But they ARE social democracies nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #134

Here's what Truman had to say about this distinction. Laelth Mar 2014 #228

Need I remind you that was the height of the COLD WAR nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #230

You are conflating so many terms it is making my head hurt. blackspade Mar 2014 #249

Thank you for this clarification. Laelth Mar 2014 #255

I say yes, Capitalism is a dirty word. blackspade Mar 2014 #261

In fact, I don't disagree with you ... about the word. Laelth Mar 2014 #287

Not criticisizing you, but... OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #133

What we call it in my econ and int'l business courses laundry_queen Mar 2014 #148

I think your definition of socialism might be a LITTLE strict, there... sibelian Mar 2014 #34

I think a lot of people throw around the word "socialism" without knowing what it means. Laelth Mar 2014 #47

... sibelian Mar 2014 #68

You are talking about communism, not socialism. lark Mar 2014 #110

Liberal socialism (like they have in some European countries) is just liberalsim. Laelth Mar 2014 #117

Hi Laelth... ReRe Mar 2014 #150

The right calls everyone to the left of Hitler a socialist. Laelth Mar 2014 #288

The OP is just a Semantical Game LarryNM Mar 2014 #176

In part, yes. Laelth Mar 2014 #222

Is that in the context of ethics or in the context of efficiency? LanternWaste Mar 2014 #120

I admit that I am not terribly interested in efficiency. Laelth Mar 2014 #138

thanks, Laelth cali Mar 2014 #5

Thanks for the kind words, cali. Laelth Mar 2014 #37

Capitalism is an unjust means of dividing resources. That seems pretty "dirty" to me. MNBrewer Mar 2014 #6

This rests on your notions of "just". sibelian Mar 2014 #9

I would agree, and that lack of critical examination has gotten us to this paradise, called MNBrewer Mar 2014 #16

Perhaps capitalism is unjust. Laelth Mar 2014 #54

Capitalism can be two farmers trading an apple and an orange... TampaAnimusVortex Mar 2014 #82

No, that is just trade cprise Mar 2014 #96

Someone needs to go back to school TorchTheWitch Mar 2014 #248

Sharecropping (a concentration of wealth) has been a major feature of capitalism. cprise Mar 2014 #254

I can see why you failed at this in school TorchTheWitch Mar 2014 #272

Exactly... Trade IS capitalism... TampaAnimusVortex Mar 2014 #372

It works well for some. It has never worked well for all. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #7

Until we have a viable alternative, I see no option but to make the best of it. Laelth Mar 2014 #56

I'm still betting on Socialism. nt Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #61

No, it's a dirty economic system. rug Mar 2014 #8

But what can those of us on the left offer that would be better? Laelth Mar 2014 #153

"the system under which we...have prospered" handmade34 Mar 2014 #194

Its core value of reducing everything, including humans, to a commodity can be explicitly rejected. rug Mar 2014 #218

Nah, we should go with communism LittleBlue Mar 2014 #10

When exploiting the earth and the people to fashion unnecessary comforts to be... NoOneMan Mar 2014 #20

I'll have Green Goddess, please. OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #50

See? That's just ignorant as hell. Like it is supposed to be some dogma that everyone can live by. loudsue Mar 2014 #36

Thank you. nt sibelian Mar 2014 #41

I disagree with your basic definition of socialism.... mike_c Mar 2014 #14

Unrestrained capitalism is evil, admittedly. Laelth Mar 2014 #163

worker control of the means of production was the norm before the industrial revolution.... mike_c Mar 2014 #174

+1 Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #234

I have no interest in going back to a medieval economy. Laelth Mar 2014 #289

that's not at all what I said, but you're also demonstrating quite a bit of misunderstanding... mike_c Mar 2014 #351

I have read Dickens. Laelth Mar 2014 #356

+1 n/t Catherina Mar 2014 #374

Good luck wih that. oldhippie Mar 2014 #15

LOL. Thanks. Laelth Mar 2014 #164

Well-regulated capitalism for me, thanks. Scuba Mar 2014 #17

Also known as "cocoon-capitalism" NoOneMan Mar 2014 #86

Thanks for the post, Scuba. Laelth Mar 2014 #347

Your definition of socialism is wrong, too. MNBrewer Mar 2014 #18

I got my definition from Marx and Engles, I think. Laelth Mar 2014 #166

They didn't coin the term at all. nt Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #177

No, they certainlywould didn't coin the term fishwax Mar 2014 #189

SOmething like that, yeah. MNBrewer Mar 2014 #219

"Liberals are capitalists" FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #19

LOL. Admittedly, I have not met every person who self-identifies as a liberal. Laelth Mar 2014 #167

I'm saying that you've chosen to define the word in your own terms FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #168

I was wondering that myself, but I thought maybe I'd just missed the memo. Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2014 #207

Liberalism and socialism are very different things. Laelth Mar 2014 #257

Truman said something bad about socialism so liberals are capitalists? FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #260

Umm ... Laelth Mar 2014 #264

...at least in Truman's view. FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #282

Capitalism relies on consumption. upaloopa Mar 2014 #21

It seems our disagreement, if any, is merely semantic. Laelth Mar 2014 #172

Yes I think we define things differently upaloopa Mar 2014 #181

Truman, of course, argued that Social Security is what PREVENTED socialism. Laelth Mar 2014 #262

Where does social security come in that statement? upaloopa Mar 2014 #283

Hmm ... Laelth Mar 2014 #286

Who is we? Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #23

The "we" in the OP refers to American liberals. Laelth Mar 2014 #175

I don't think you, or any one person, can speak for LWolf Mar 2014 #362

You are quite right, of course. I stand corrected. Laelth Mar 2014 #363

I want a system that benefits the 99%. LWolf Mar 2014 #369

Any economic model that commodifies everything is toxic villager Mar 2014 #28

I don't disagree with you. Laelth Mar 2014 #182

I'm more of a democratic socialist. Though one fellow writer describes it as "Left Libertarian" villager Mar 2014 #186

More to the point, there's more than one kind of capitalism... JHB Mar 2014 #30

CHRIST!!! Look at 1955!!! I had no bloody idea. sibelian Mar 2014 #38

That was only if you made over $1.5 Million per year IN 1955 dollars.... loudsue Mar 2014 #58

Um... sibelian Mar 2014 #72

Actually, that's if you made over $400K in 1955 dollars... JHB Mar 2014 #129

Lots of people have no bloody idea JHB Mar 2014 #170

Very interesting post, JHB. And you can see how they were able to successfully loudsue Mar 2014 #269

If we are to continue to have Capitalism, the Keynesian model is the best. PotatoChip Mar 2014 #89

What are liberal laws? I don't see the word 'regulation' in your post, is that what you mean? Avalux Mar 2014 #31

Excellent question. Thank you. Laelth Mar 2014 #187

Socialism is common ownership of the means of production. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #33

So under your system... MicaelS Mar 2014 #90

What's the problem with that? NoOneMan Mar 2014 #102

The problem is that it is a disincentive to grow the business... MicaelS Mar 2014 #143

Why is that a disincentive? NoOneMan Mar 2014 #146

Yes! Why do we have to keep batting down RW talking points here? Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2014 #179

... handmade34 Mar 2014 #195

That attitude is the problem. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #204

We can't legislate altruism. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #266

The point is that the use of public resources has to go towards benefiting the whole. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #113

You've pointed out a very obvious problem with "capitalism is evil" sibelian Mar 2014 #118

+1. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #310

Property is Theft ~ Pierre-Joseph Proudhon Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #97

+! n/t LarryNM Mar 2014 #169

I like your definition, and I can work with it. Laelth Mar 2014 #290

"There is a difference between "private property" and "personal property". Most important post ^ n/t Catherina Mar 2014 #375

'liberal' is what created the corrupted system we now live with. nt xchrom Mar 2014 #39

Exactly. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #95

Thank You. Like Howard Zinn said, (paraphrasing) Skeeter Barnes Mar 2014 #155

What can I say? I am sorry to hear that you feel that way. Laelth Mar 2014 #191

If only we still lived in a capitalist society. Alas we live in a plutocracy now. Rex Mar 2014 #40

I hear you, but the US is and always has been an oligarchy. Laelth Mar 2014 #193

an oligarchy that meets the needs of all the people." is perhaps the most fanciful statement ever TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #370

Perhaps. Laelth Mar 2014 #373

You think the oligarchs are the office holders? No wonder we have a failure to communicate. TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #378

Hmm ... Laelth Mar 2014 #379

Well, if the oligarchs are beyond election then I'm missing the "how" to get benign ones TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #380

Let me see if I can explain. Laelth Mar 2014 #381

That was well written and you know what? I substantially agree with you. TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #382

First... that took guts. 1awake Mar 2014 #42

First, let me say "thank you" for the kind words. Laelth Mar 2014 #198

bullshit. Capitalism does not work for the vast majority. bowens43 Mar 2014 #44

It does with proper controls. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #139

Some times I pray that armies of true Progressives would become business owners bluestate10 Mar 2014 #250

Safety nets and labor protections are good for business. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #271

I thought we had pretty much all agreed on a mixed approach by now? ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2014 #48

Not only agreed to it, but implemented it. OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #57

Glad you made an OP on this Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #49

Sigh. This thread has been a major drain on my mental reserves. Laelth Mar 2014 #202

Yep! Glad you did too. Maybe I'll read through more later Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #203

So Socialism IS a dirty word?! Oakenshield Mar 2014 #53

Not a dirty word; just a fantasy word... brooklynite Mar 2014 #59

Bullshit. Oakenshield Mar 2014 #63

...and all of those were built within a capitalist system... brooklynite Mar 2014 #93

Brilliant argument. Oakenshield Mar 2014 #108

I don't say that something that hasn't been tried should never be tried... brooklynite Mar 2014 #116

I really had no idea the northern European countries were small settlements nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #121

Capitalism has been outlawed in Scandinavia? brooklynite Mar 2014 #135

Scandinavia *IS* a social democracy nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #137

Social Democracy *IS NOT* SocialISM brooklynite Mar 2014 #144

Well I guess my poli sci instructor who used to be CIA nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #145

I would only be "afraid" if I thought the prospect was real... brooklynite Mar 2014 #156

Go join the real world nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #159

Oh and here from them pesky commies at Foreign Affairs Magazine nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #231

Nor do I. Laelth Mar 2014 #359

So you're afraid. Own up to it and move aside. Oakenshield Mar 2014 #126

That's the problem. They haven't existed at a national level. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #206

It's not a fantasy word, it's a political PHILOSOPHY, not a hard-wired SYSTEM. sibelian Mar 2014 #80

I don't think anyone equates "Public Sector" with "socialism" as an economic structure. brooklynite Mar 2014 #98

With the possible exception of the self identifed SOCIALIST politicians sibelian Mar 2014 #131

What the OP has described IS SOCIAL DEMOCRACY nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #101

I cannot disagree. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #136

Hi Laelth. I like your posts a lot. Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #55

You may be interested in the philosophy of Mutualism. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #105

Cool! I'll check into these. It's looking to me as if capitalism can only lead in one direction Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #112

Hello, Sarah. Laelth Mar 2014 #205

I am sorry that your thoughts are profane PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #62

Also, theoretically, capitalism will always result in monopolies in the end laundry_queen Mar 2014 #157

That's quite true of unregulated capitalism. Laelth Mar 2014 #208

I disagree. laundry_queen Mar 2014 #253

Deregulated, unchecked capitalism is the real underlying danger. Initech Mar 2014 #65

Hear, hear! n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #209

Socialism isn't "state ownership of all property." Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #66

Hear! Hear! [n/t] Maedhros Mar 2014 #185

Ethically, I agree with you about the nature of capitalism. Laelth Mar 2014 #215

Distribution of power. Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2014 #67

I can't disagree with that. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #291

Good thread and post. Trashing capitalism is cool, particularly if you don't understand it... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #69

So is trashing socialism nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #122

Yes, the irony of that statement was not lost on me, LOL. laundry_queen Mar 2014 #160

People have no idea nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #162

This message was self-deleted by its author Laelth Mar 2014 #293

This message was self-deleted by its author nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #295

I misunderstood you. My apologies. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #297

I hope you realize nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #70

Ya beat me to it. n/t malthaussen Mar 2014 #92

Perhaps. But it's not socialism. Laelth Mar 2014 #292

I will be charitable and use the *other term* used by experts nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #301

I will concede that you are the expert on the meaning of words. Laelth Mar 2014 #306

Sorry but that is: DeSwiss Mar 2014 #73

LOL. Extraordinarily creative response. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #294

I agree. In the public debate, we need to talk more about ETHICAL Capitalism, Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #75

Hear, hear! We need to win elections. Laelth Mar 2014 #296

Americans are brought up to put capitalism on a pedestal Maedhros Mar 2014 #76

I hear you on that. Laelth Mar 2014 #298

My suggestion is to transition away from capitalism, rather than accede to it. Maedhros Mar 2014 #308

There's no such thing as pure capitalism or pure socialism kristopher Mar 2014 #77

"to limit the accumulation and concentration of capital," is essential! Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2014 #199

Seen as a spectrum, this makes sense. Laelth Mar 2014 #303

But, when it combines with government to run the country it becomes Fascism. Which is a dirty word. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #78

BINGO! Rex Mar 2014 #83

Yes, that's my understanding of the word fascism, or, "corporatism" as Moussolini called it. Laelth Mar 2014 #304

UNREGULATED capitalism cannot be successful. elleng Mar 2014 #79

Agreed. Unregulated capitalism leads to Mexico and Somalia. Laelth Mar 2014 #361

Ditto, elleng Mar 2014 #368

Not buying that. Rider3 Mar 2014 #88

Good thing I gave it to you for free, then. Laelth Mar 2014 #305

You mean like these Liberals? Zorra Mar 2014 #91

Um ... no. Laelth Mar 2014 #267

I have always liked you Laelth - TBF Mar 2014 #94

Thank you for the kind words. Laelth Mar 2014 #311

It seems the banksters didn't get the message. Cleita Mar 2014 #99

Socialism, or regulation to achieve social goals. riqster Mar 2014 #119

If what you call socialism is what I call liberalism, then I agree. Laelth Mar 2014 #312

Also - TBF Mar 2014 #100

I think history has proven that we CAN regulate capitalism. Laelth Mar 2014 #313

Were they "advances" though? TBF Mar 2014 #324

Indeed. That is the question. Laelth Mar 2014 #328

Yes, that is spot on re purpose of liberalism. TBF Mar 2014 #344

Agree completely with the OP. riqster Mar 2014 #103

Yes, he does, and thanks. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #314

NP riqster Mar 2014 #319

It is to me. johnp3907 Mar 2014 #104

To be honest, it is to most Americans I know. Laelth Mar 2014 #316

I'm a liberal and I say capitalism sucks. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #106

Fine, but it's not terribly useful to make that argument, is it? Laelth Mar 2014 #317

Capitalism is what's wrong with the country. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #346

Agree. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #107

When capital controls government, we call that fascism. Laelth Mar 2014 #318

Problem is, capitalism is based on a fundamental flaw... malthaussen Mar 2014 #111

That is a very serious problem, I agree. Laelth Mar 2014 #320

I have always considered myself a liberal capitalist. closeupready Mar 2014 #115

Same here. Thanks for the response. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #321

There is a couple of decent posts on DU regarding David Simon. fleabiscuit Mar 2014 #123

I'm with you L, I've got no problem with that economic system tech3149 Mar 2014 #124

Agreed. Unrestrained, laissez-faire capitalism bites. Laelth Mar 2014 #329

It's a dirty word when America decides it's policy is to promote it by murder. Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2014 #125

I can't argue with that. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #330

True. Unchecked, capitalism leads to a situation ... NancyDL Mar 2014 #127

Hear, hear! Well said. Laelth Mar 2014 #331

Tell that to Exxon Valdez survivors. raven mad Mar 2014 #128

Accidents never happen in non-Capitalist systems? brooklynite Mar 2014 #147

+2000! raven mad Mar 2014 #190

The Exxon Valdez spill was an avoidable accident, neccessary equipment was left Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #315

No, but it is unsustainable. nt redqueen Mar 2014 #140

Hard to say, but we're stuck with it for the moment, I think. Laelth Mar 2014 #332

Unfettered Capitalism is, though. liberalmuse Mar 2014 #141

You can tell that to the children of America that died for a few table scraps. Rex Mar 2014 #142

One of those kids could have been my dad. He went down into the Cleita Mar 2014 #236

If capitalism is so great why does it need to be regulated? fasttense Mar 2014 #149

.... handmade34 Mar 2014 #197

So the system you want needs no regulation? JoePhilly Mar 2014 #216

That's actually why state socialism has yet to succeed. joshcryer Mar 2014 #265

The system I want needs no regulation to prevent the rich from abusing the 99%. fasttense Mar 2014 #279

I think we're much better off today than most Americans during the Gilded Age. Laelth Mar 2014 #341

But capitalism caused the Gilded Age as much as it has caused the current crisis. fasttense Mar 2014 #371

capitalism is dirty, filthy, unfair heaven05 Mar 2014 #151

Laelth, a sane, just, and humane capitalism appears to be out of our reach. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #154

I don't disagree. Laelth Mar 2014 #339

check out Gar Alperovitz's "What then is to be done" about democratic ownership zazen Mar 2014 #158

Thanks for the link. Laelth Mar 2014 #211

But that idealized capitalism is a chimera, it has never existed......... marmar Mar 2014 #161

Because it's a contradiction in terms. nt delrem Mar 2014 #178

No, 'socialism' doesn't mean state ownership of all property. delrem Mar 2014 #165

I am open to discussing your definition of socialism as soon as you produce it. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #224

Do your own work. nt delrem Mar 2014 #226

I'll let Harry S. Truman speak for me on this one. Laelth Mar 2014 #229

yes, I'm sure you feel righteous in your affirmations. delrem Mar 2014 #244

"Liberal" in the USA is not the same as globally. joshcryer Mar 2014 #171

Well,. there is that too nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #183

Capitalism fails without socialist reforms/checks fishwax Mar 2014 #184

Those programs have been called "socialist." Laelth Mar 2014 #227

nah, they were socialist fishwax Mar 2014 #247

Capitalism is based on profiting off of other people frwrfpos Mar 2014 #188

It is sad watching someone get socialism and communism mixed up. Rex Mar 2014 #192

That slur was particularly unkind. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #210

No offense, but it is true. I see that mistake made all the time here in Texas by RWingers. Rex Mar 2014 #212

It's all good. Laelth Mar 2014 #325

I see that now and appreciate the elaboration, which makes (for me) your OP make a lot more sense. Rex Mar 2014 #326

If I were to re-write the OP now, I'd do a much better job. Laelth Mar 2014 #327

Seems like a good time to post this. Didn't see it posted in this thread yet. redqueen Mar 2014 #213

I've given your exact explanation almost to right wingers treestar Mar 2014 #196

I know. Their understanding of political theory is often limited. Laelth Mar 2014 #201

From what I read above, some on the left might lop off your head for daring ... JoePhilly Mar 2014 #214

Thanks for the moral support and for the kind words. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #323

As with the judiciary, there are two systems... WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #217

Is what we currently have "capitalism"? Faryn Balyncd Mar 2014 #221

Killer-good post. Laelth Mar 2014 #333

Are you familiar with the work of Charles M. Kelly, Laelth? Faryn Balyncd Mar 2014 #348

Actually, no. I was not familiar with his work. Laelth Mar 2014 #358

I mostly agree with you. It the fetishizing of unfettered capitalism that creates economic chaos Bucky Mar 2014 #232

Capitalism may not be a dirty word but I'm not a liberal jimlup Mar 2014 #240

Your understanding of capitalism is flawed blackspade Mar 2014 #246

Agree with you on almost everything. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #258

I was trying to use modern terminology for 'socialism' blackspade Mar 2014 #263

I think you made up those definitions on the fly. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #268

Wrong in what way? blackspade Mar 2014 #270

There's no need for "regulation" in a socialist economy. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #280

You're confusing socialist and state capitalist. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #281

I don't like your definitions, for reasons expressed above, but yes. Laelth Mar 2014 #334

This has been a very stimulating conversation actually. blackspade Mar 2014 #349

Capitalism is a practice, not a belief system. Deep13 Mar 2014 #251

I hear you, and I am aware of Marx's use of the word. Laelth Mar 2014 #335

ownership means control and dominion. Deep13 Mar 2014 #355

Sheesh MFrohike Mar 2014 #273

Perhaps, but context is relevant here. Laelth Mar 2014 #338

Oh, I got the context MFrohike Mar 2014 #340

Feel free to hide the thread if you don't like it. Laelth Mar 2014 #342

Sigh MFrohike Mar 2014 #354

The problem is that any criticism of capitalism is considered communistic by people who love liberal_at_heart Mar 2014 #274

All talk about the success of capitalism is based on a small exceptional period TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #275

That's like saying slavery is not the problem, it just needs better regulation. grahamhgreen Mar 2014 #285

Most people don't even know the meaning RobertEarl Mar 2014 #299

It's often forgotten that Liberalism is a capitalist ideology. WatermelonRat Mar 2014 #300

Quite. Laelth Mar 2014 #343

No, it's a clean word for a dirty system. JackRiddler Mar 2014 #302

It promotes a zero sum mentality that is detrimental to human developement. idendoit Mar 2014 #336

Social democracy like they have in Western Europe is basically the best thing that's been tested... Hippo_Tron Mar 2014 #337

Speak for yourself! In my world, capitalism *IS* a dirty word. Raksha Mar 2014 #350

In my book, Sweden is not a socialist country. Laelth Mar 2014 #360

Sweden uses a capitalist economic model soflo80 Mar 2014 #364

Sadly, we do not have a well-regulated, fair free market economy arcane1 Mar 2014 #365

+1 to soflo80. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #367

It's "The 'C' Word" AgingAmerican Mar 2014 #366

When our "capitalists" lose money, our government runs in to bail them out. That's not "capitalism" Romulox Mar 2014 #376

You'll get no argument from me on that. Laelth Mar 2014 #377