General Discussion

Laelth

(32,017 posts)

306. I will concede that you are the expert on the meaning of words.

Fri Mar 7, 2014, 04:42 PM

Mar 2014

I concede this point because I consider it irrelevant. We lack, in English, an "Academie de la Langue Francaise" to permanently and finally define all words for us. English is a living, fluid language, and definitions change.

But I agree with you that definitions do, in fact, matter, and I am talking, specifically, about how we ought to define the words capitalism, socialism, and liberalism. My point is purely pragmatic. I am not trying to win a debate. I am defining liberalism (as did Truman) in a way that aligns liberalism with capitalism and places liberalism in opposition to socialism. I do so because I want liberals to win, and it's my sense that one can't win an election in the United States by attacking capitalism and making capitalism into a dirty word.

If you disagree with this strategy, so be it. I still think you want liberals to win elections, though.

Thanks for the lively discussion.

-Laelth

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Capitalism is NOT a dirty word. [View all] Laelth Mar 2014 OP

Fuck that NoOneMan Mar 2014 #1

LOL. Laelth Mar 2014 #4

The argument was without merit NoOneMan Mar 2014 #11

It doesn't bother me. Laelth Mar 2014 #26

To an incredibly weak statement NoOneMan Mar 2014 #27

I agree completely with your OP JaneyVee Mar 2014 #152

That's it in a nut-shell. Thanks. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #200

It's that "unregulated" capitalism that is the problem. kentuck Mar 2014 #233

FDR and LBJ proved that capitalism can, in fact, be regulated. Laelth Mar 2014 #345

All FDR and LBJ proved is that capitalism can be regulated TEMPORARILY, Raksha Mar 2014 #352

I don't disagree, per se. Laelth Mar 2014 #357

agreed. capitalism is about profit over resources Whisp Mar 2014 #276

I hear what you're saying Laelth, however, loudsue Mar 2014 #2

So trashing it publicly will get the slower students to re-think it and do what exactly? LionsTigersRedWings Mar 2014 #12

Change the way this country lets it run rampant over people, the environment, loudsue Mar 2014 #22

So you would like to see what to OP talks about, Capitalism with liberal laws in place to LionsTigersRedWings Mar 2014 #25

Yep n/t loudsue Mar 2014 #46

Won't work lark Mar 2014 #74

Have you considered it's the political apparatus and not the economic apparatus that's to blame? kristopher Mar 2014 #85

In the future everything not prohibited will be mandatory Fumesucker Mar 2014 #223

Mandatory voting is the best tool for ensuring a democracy that functions. kristopher Mar 2014 #225

I don't think it would make much if any difference in our propaganda drenched society Fumesucker Mar 2014 #235

That is, by FAR, the lesser of two evils. kristopher Mar 2014 #237

How do you know it will be "a small fine"? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #238

I'm sorry... kristopher Mar 2014 #239

You made a statement and now don't want to back it up? Fumesucker Mar 2014 #241

No, I don't want to back it up. kristopher Mar 2014 #242

I thought Australia was doing quite well with compulsory voting. Ed Suspicious Mar 2014 #252

Sorry to burst your bubble, but . . . . Tony Abbott hatrack Mar 2014 #322

OK, but what alternative do we propose? Laelth Mar 2014 #29

We ARE proposing something as an alternative. Where have you been? loudsue Mar 2014 #43

Indeed. I agree with all that you propose. Laelth Mar 2014 #81

I thought the original post might have been satire PATRICK Mar 2014 #278

Yep, 1950s talking points... Raksha Mar 2014 #353

Capitalism would work splendidly if only if weren't what it is. delrem Mar 2014 #173

Socialism hasn't actually been tried. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #84

I have read Bakunin, and I have heard that argument many times. Laelth Mar 2014 #114

What Republicans seem to forget... NancyDL Mar 2014 #130

Well, that's your head WELL above the parapet. sibelian Mar 2014 #3

I can withstand the barrage. Laelth Mar 2014 #13

The alternative is to take from the rich, and give to the poor .... oldhippie Mar 2014 #24

That's the definition of liberalism. Laelth Mar 2014 #35

See? You're trashing socialism. It's not black & white. That is why people need to re-think loudsue Mar 2014 #32

I am trashing socialism, yes. Laelth Mar 2014 #45

I agree with that 100%. So...capitalism doesn't need you to speak up for it... loudsue Mar 2014 #51

Capitalism in this country HAS gone bad. Laelth Mar 2014 #60

No it DOESN'T mean state ownership of all property, that's COMMUNISM. sibelian Mar 2014 #52

The U.K. is a capitalist society. Laelth Mar 2014 #64

Yes, OK fair enough, the beef isn't worth chewing. sibelian Mar 2014 #71

LOL. Cheers, my friend. Laelth Mar 2014 #87

Huh? tea and oranges Mar 2014 #180

Perhaps I erred in my wording. Laelth Mar 2014 #220

Sigh! tea and oranges Mar 2014 #243

"If only capitalism didn't produce capitalists...".... socialist_n_TN Mar 2014 #245

I don't know. Laelth Mar 2014 #256

Have You Not Noticed the Gov't of Australia's Gone Right Wing? tea and oranges Mar 2014 #259

Its not right wing as we know it. Notafraidtoo Mar 2014 #277

As in the economic decision to go full speed ahead tea and oranges Mar 2014 #284

Australian Liberalism? Fairgo Mar 2014 #307

Thanks for the tip. Laelth Mar 2014 #309

So you telling me that the Norther European SOCIAL DEMOCRACIES nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #109

They can call themselves socialist all they want. Laelth Mar 2014 #132

But they ARE social democracies nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #134

Here's what Truman had to say about this distinction. Laelth Mar 2014 #228

Need I remind you that was the height of the COLD WAR nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #230

You are conflating so many terms it is making my head hurt. blackspade Mar 2014 #249

Thank you for this clarification. Laelth Mar 2014 #255

I say yes, Capitalism is a dirty word. blackspade Mar 2014 #261

In fact, I don't disagree with you ... about the word. Laelth Mar 2014 #287

Not criticisizing you, but... OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #133

What we call it in my econ and int'l business courses laundry_queen Mar 2014 #148

I think your definition of socialism might be a LITTLE strict, there... sibelian Mar 2014 #34

I think a lot of people throw around the word "socialism" without knowing what it means. Laelth Mar 2014 #47

... sibelian Mar 2014 #68

You are talking about communism, not socialism. lark Mar 2014 #110

Liberal socialism (like they have in some European countries) is just liberalsim. Laelth Mar 2014 #117

Hi Laelth... ReRe Mar 2014 #150

The right calls everyone to the left of Hitler a socialist. Laelth Mar 2014 #288

The OP is just a Semantical Game LarryNM Mar 2014 #176

In part, yes. Laelth Mar 2014 #222

Is that in the context of ethics or in the context of efficiency? LanternWaste Mar 2014 #120

I admit that I am not terribly interested in efficiency. Laelth Mar 2014 #138

thanks, Laelth cali Mar 2014 #5

Thanks for the kind words, cali. Laelth Mar 2014 #37

Capitalism is an unjust means of dividing resources. That seems pretty "dirty" to me. MNBrewer Mar 2014 #6

This rests on your notions of "just". sibelian Mar 2014 #9

I would agree, and that lack of critical examination has gotten us to this paradise, called MNBrewer Mar 2014 #16

Perhaps capitalism is unjust. Laelth Mar 2014 #54

Capitalism can be two farmers trading an apple and an orange... TampaAnimusVortex Mar 2014 #82

No, that is just trade cprise Mar 2014 #96

Someone needs to go back to school TorchTheWitch Mar 2014 #248

Sharecropping (a concentration of wealth) has been a major feature of capitalism. cprise Mar 2014 #254

I can see why you failed at this in school TorchTheWitch Mar 2014 #272

Exactly... Trade IS capitalism... TampaAnimusVortex Mar 2014 #372

It works well for some. It has never worked well for all. Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #7

Until we have a viable alternative, I see no option but to make the best of it. Laelth Mar 2014 #56

I'm still betting on Socialism. nt Democracyinkind Mar 2014 #61

No, it's a dirty economic system. rug Mar 2014 #8

But what can those of us on the left offer that would be better? Laelth Mar 2014 #153

"the system under which we...have prospered" handmade34 Mar 2014 #194

Its core value of reducing everything, including humans, to a commodity can be explicitly rejected. rug Mar 2014 #218

Nah, we should go with communism LittleBlue Mar 2014 #10

When exploiting the earth and the people to fashion unnecessary comforts to be... NoOneMan Mar 2014 #20

I'll have Green Goddess, please. OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #50

See? That's just ignorant as hell. Like it is supposed to be some dogma that everyone can live by. loudsue Mar 2014 #36

Thank you. nt sibelian Mar 2014 #41

I disagree with your basic definition of socialism.... mike_c Mar 2014 #14

Unrestrained capitalism is evil, admittedly. Laelth Mar 2014 #163

worker control of the means of production was the norm before the industrial revolution.... mike_c Mar 2014 #174

+1 Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #234

I have no interest in going back to a medieval economy. Laelth Mar 2014 #289

that's not at all what I said, but you're also demonstrating quite a bit of misunderstanding... mike_c Mar 2014 #351

I have read Dickens. Laelth Mar 2014 #356

+1 n/t Catherina Mar 2014 #374

Good luck wih that. oldhippie Mar 2014 #15

LOL. Thanks. Laelth Mar 2014 #164

Well-regulated capitalism for me, thanks. Scuba Mar 2014 #17

Also known as "cocoon-capitalism" NoOneMan Mar 2014 #86

Thanks for the post, Scuba. Laelth Mar 2014 #347

Your definition of socialism is wrong, too. MNBrewer Mar 2014 #18

I got my definition from Marx and Engles, I think. Laelth Mar 2014 #166

They didn't coin the term at all. nt Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #177

No, they certainlywould didn't coin the term fishwax Mar 2014 #189

SOmething like that, yeah. MNBrewer Mar 2014 #219

"Liberals are capitalists" FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #19

LOL. Admittedly, I have not met every person who self-identifies as a liberal. Laelth Mar 2014 #167

I'm saying that you've chosen to define the word in your own terms FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #168

I was wondering that myself, but I thought maybe I'd just missed the memo. Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2014 #207

Liberalism and socialism are very different things. Laelth Mar 2014 #257

Truman said something bad about socialism so liberals are capitalists? FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #260

Umm ... Laelth Mar 2014 #264

...at least in Truman's view. FiveGoodMen Mar 2014 #282

Capitalism relies on consumption. upaloopa Mar 2014 #21

It seems our disagreement, if any, is merely semantic. Laelth Mar 2014 #172

Yes I think we define things differently upaloopa Mar 2014 #181

Truman, of course, argued that Social Security is what PREVENTED socialism. Laelth Mar 2014 #262

Where does social security come in that statement? upaloopa Mar 2014 #283

Hmm ... Laelth Mar 2014 #286

Who is we? Starry Messenger Mar 2014 #23

The "we" in the OP refers to American liberals. Laelth Mar 2014 #175

I don't think you, or any one person, can speak for LWolf Mar 2014 #362

You are quite right, of course. I stand corrected. Laelth Mar 2014 #363

I want a system that benefits the 99%. LWolf Mar 2014 #369

Any economic model that commodifies everything is toxic villager Mar 2014 #28

I don't disagree with you. Laelth Mar 2014 #182

I'm more of a democratic socialist. Though one fellow writer describes it as "Left Libertarian" villager Mar 2014 #186

More to the point, there's more than one kind of capitalism... JHB Mar 2014 #30

CHRIST!!! Look at 1955!!! I had no bloody idea. sibelian Mar 2014 #38

That was only if you made over $1.5 Million per year IN 1955 dollars.... loudsue Mar 2014 #58

Um... sibelian Mar 2014 #72

Actually, that's if you made over $400K in 1955 dollars... JHB Mar 2014 #129

Lots of people have no bloody idea JHB Mar 2014 #170

Very interesting post, JHB. And you can see how they were able to successfully loudsue Mar 2014 #269

If we are to continue to have Capitalism, the Keynesian model is the best. PotatoChip Mar 2014 #89

What are liberal laws? I don't see the word 'regulation' in your post, is that what you mean? Avalux Mar 2014 #31

Excellent question. Thank you. Laelth Mar 2014 #187

Socialism is common ownership of the means of production. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #33

So under your system... MicaelS Mar 2014 #90

What's the problem with that? NoOneMan Mar 2014 #102

The problem is that it is a disincentive to grow the business... MicaelS Mar 2014 #143

Why is that a disincentive? NoOneMan Mar 2014 #146

Yes! Why do we have to keep batting down RW talking points here? Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2014 #179

... handmade34 Mar 2014 #195

That attitude is the problem. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #204

We can't legislate altruism. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #266

The point is that the use of public resources has to go towards benefiting the whole. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #113

You've pointed out a very obvious problem with "capitalism is evil" sibelian Mar 2014 #118

+1. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #310

Property is Theft ~ Pierre-Joseph Proudhon Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #97

+! n/t LarryNM Mar 2014 #169

I like your definition, and I can work with it. Laelth Mar 2014 #290

"There is a difference between "private property" and "personal property". Most important post ^ n/t Catherina Mar 2014 #375

'liberal' is what created the corrupted system we now live with. nt xchrom Mar 2014 #39

Exactly. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #95

Thank You. Like Howard Zinn said, (paraphrasing) Skeeter Barnes Mar 2014 #155

What can I say? I am sorry to hear that you feel that way. Laelth Mar 2014 #191

If only we still lived in a capitalist society. Alas we live in a plutocracy now. Rex Mar 2014 #40

I hear you, but the US is and always has been an oligarchy. Laelth Mar 2014 #193

an oligarchy that meets the needs of all the people." is perhaps the most fanciful statement ever TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #370

Perhaps. Laelth Mar 2014 #373

You think the oligarchs are the office holders? No wonder we have a failure to communicate. TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #378

Hmm ... Laelth Mar 2014 #379

Well, if the oligarchs are beyond election then I'm missing the "how" to get benign ones TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #380

Let me see if I can explain. Laelth Mar 2014 #381

That was well written and you know what? I substantially agree with you. TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #382

First... that took guts. 1awake Mar 2014 #42

First, let me say "thank you" for the kind words. Laelth Mar 2014 #198

bullshit. Capitalism does not work for the vast majority. bowens43 Mar 2014 #44

It does with proper controls. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #139

Some times I pray that armies of true Progressives would become business owners bluestate10 Mar 2014 #250

Safety nets and labor protections are good for business. AtheistCrusader Mar 2014 #271

I thought we had pretty much all agreed on a mixed approach by now? ForgoTheConsequence Mar 2014 #48

Not only agreed to it, but implemented it. OilemFirchen Mar 2014 #57

Glad you made an OP on this Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #49

Sigh. This thread has been a major drain on my mental reserves. Laelth Mar 2014 #202

Yep! Glad you did too. Maybe I'll read through more later Pretzel_Warrior Mar 2014 #203

So Socialism IS a dirty word?! Oakenshield Mar 2014 #53

Not a dirty word; just a fantasy word... brooklynite Mar 2014 #59

Bullshit. Oakenshield Mar 2014 #63

...and all of those were built within a capitalist system... brooklynite Mar 2014 #93

Brilliant argument. Oakenshield Mar 2014 #108

I don't say that something that hasn't been tried should never be tried... brooklynite Mar 2014 #116

I really had no idea the northern European countries were small settlements nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #121

Capitalism has been outlawed in Scandinavia? brooklynite Mar 2014 #135

Scandinavia *IS* a social democracy nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #137

Social Democracy *IS NOT* SocialISM brooklynite Mar 2014 #144

Well I guess my poli sci instructor who used to be CIA nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #145

I would only be "afraid" if I thought the prospect was real... brooklynite Mar 2014 #156

Go join the real world nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #159

Oh and here from them pesky commies at Foreign Affairs Magazine nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #231

Nor do I. Laelth Mar 2014 #359

So you're afraid. Own up to it and move aside. Oakenshield Mar 2014 #126

That's the problem. They haven't existed at a national level. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #206

It's not a fantasy word, it's a political PHILOSOPHY, not a hard-wired SYSTEM. sibelian Mar 2014 #80

I don't think anyone equates "Public Sector" with "socialism" as an economic structure. brooklynite Mar 2014 #98

With the possible exception of the self identifed SOCIALIST politicians sibelian Mar 2014 #131

What the OP has described IS SOCIAL DEMOCRACY nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #101

I cannot disagree. nt Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #136

Hi Laelth. I like your posts a lot. Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #55

You may be interested in the philosophy of Mutualism. Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #105

Cool! I'll check into these. It's looking to me as if capitalism can only lead in one direction Sarah Ibarruri Mar 2014 #112

Hello, Sarah. Laelth Mar 2014 #205

I am sorry that your thoughts are profane PowerToThePeople Mar 2014 #62

Also, theoretically, capitalism will always result in monopolies in the end laundry_queen Mar 2014 #157

That's quite true of unregulated capitalism. Laelth Mar 2014 #208

I disagree. laundry_queen Mar 2014 #253

Deregulated, unchecked capitalism is the real underlying danger. Initech Mar 2014 #65

Hear, hear! n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #209

Socialism isn't "state ownership of all property." Fantastic Anarchist Mar 2014 #66

Hear! Hear! [n/t] Maedhros Mar 2014 #185

Ethically, I agree with you about the nature of capitalism. Laelth Mar 2014 #215

Distribution of power. Benton D Struckcheon Mar 2014 #67

I can't disagree with that. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #291

Good thread and post. Trashing capitalism is cool, particularly if you don't understand it... Demo_Chris Mar 2014 #69

So is trashing socialism nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #122

Yes, the irony of that statement was not lost on me, LOL. laundry_queen Mar 2014 #160

People have no idea nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #162

This message was self-deleted by its author Laelth Mar 2014 #293

This message was self-deleted by its author nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #295

I misunderstood you. My apologies. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #297

I hope you realize nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #70

Ya beat me to it. n/t malthaussen Mar 2014 #92

Perhaps. But it's not socialism. Laelth Mar 2014 #292

I will be charitable and use the *other term* used by experts nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #301

I will concede that you are the expert on the meaning of words. Laelth Mar 2014 #306

Sorry but that is: DeSwiss Mar 2014 #73

LOL. Extraordinarily creative response. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #294

I agree. In the public debate, we need to talk more about ETHICAL Capitalism, Common Sense Party Mar 2014 #75

Hear, hear! We need to win elections. Laelth Mar 2014 #296

Americans are brought up to put capitalism on a pedestal Maedhros Mar 2014 #76

I hear you on that. Laelth Mar 2014 #298

My suggestion is to transition away from capitalism, rather than accede to it. Maedhros Mar 2014 #308

There's no such thing as pure capitalism or pure socialism kristopher Mar 2014 #77

"to limit the accumulation and concentration of capital," is essential! Dark n Stormy Knight Mar 2014 #199

Seen as a spectrum, this makes sense. Laelth Mar 2014 #303

But, when it combines with government to run the country it becomes Fascism. Which is a dirty word. Tierra_y_Libertad Mar 2014 #78

BINGO! Rex Mar 2014 #83

Yes, that's my understanding of the word fascism, or, "corporatism" as Moussolini called it. Laelth Mar 2014 #304

UNREGULATED capitalism cannot be successful. elleng Mar 2014 #79

Agreed. Unregulated capitalism leads to Mexico and Somalia. Laelth Mar 2014 #361

Ditto, elleng Mar 2014 #368

Not buying that. Rider3 Mar 2014 #88

Good thing I gave it to you for free, then. Laelth Mar 2014 #305

You mean like these Liberals? Zorra Mar 2014 #91

Um ... no. Laelth Mar 2014 #267

I have always liked you Laelth - TBF Mar 2014 #94

Thank you for the kind words. Laelth Mar 2014 #311

It seems the banksters didn't get the message. Cleita Mar 2014 #99

Socialism, or regulation to achieve social goals. riqster Mar 2014 #119

If what you call socialism is what I call liberalism, then I agree. Laelth Mar 2014 #312

Also - TBF Mar 2014 #100

I think history has proven that we CAN regulate capitalism. Laelth Mar 2014 #313

Were they "advances" though? TBF Mar 2014 #324

Indeed. That is the question. Laelth Mar 2014 #328

Yes, that is spot on re purpose of liberalism. TBF Mar 2014 #344

Agree completely with the OP. riqster Mar 2014 #103

Yes, he does, and thanks. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #314

NP riqster Mar 2014 #319

It is to me. johnp3907 Mar 2014 #104

To be honest, it is to most Americans I know. Laelth Mar 2014 #316

I'm a liberal and I say capitalism sucks. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #106

Fine, but it's not terribly useful to make that argument, is it? Laelth Mar 2014 #317

Capitalism is what's wrong with the country. Vashta Nerada Mar 2014 #346

Agree. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #107

When capital controls government, we call that fascism. Laelth Mar 2014 #318

Problem is, capitalism is based on a fundamental flaw... malthaussen Mar 2014 #111

That is a very serious problem, I agree. Laelth Mar 2014 #320

I have always considered myself a liberal capitalist. closeupready Mar 2014 #115

Same here. Thanks for the response. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #321

There is a couple of decent posts on DU regarding David Simon. fleabiscuit Mar 2014 #123

I'm with you L, I've got no problem with that economic system tech3149 Mar 2014 #124

Agreed. Unrestrained, laissez-faire capitalism bites. Laelth Mar 2014 #329

It's a dirty word when America decides it's policy is to promote it by murder. Spitfire of ATJ Mar 2014 #125

I can't argue with that. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #330

True. Unchecked, capitalism leads to a situation ... NancyDL Mar 2014 #127

Hear, hear! Well said. Laelth Mar 2014 #331

Tell that to Exxon Valdez survivors. raven mad Mar 2014 #128

Accidents never happen in non-Capitalist systems? brooklynite Mar 2014 #147

+2000! raven mad Mar 2014 #190

The Exxon Valdez spill was an avoidable accident, neccessary equipment was left Bluenorthwest Mar 2014 #315

No, but it is unsustainable. nt redqueen Mar 2014 #140

Hard to say, but we're stuck with it for the moment, I think. Laelth Mar 2014 #332

Unfettered Capitalism is, though. liberalmuse Mar 2014 #141

You can tell that to the children of America that died for a few table scraps. Rex Mar 2014 #142

One of those kids could have been my dad. He went down into the Cleita Mar 2014 #236

If capitalism is so great why does it need to be regulated? fasttense Mar 2014 #149

.... handmade34 Mar 2014 #197

So the system you want needs no regulation? JoePhilly Mar 2014 #216

That's actually why state socialism has yet to succeed. joshcryer Mar 2014 #265

The system I want needs no regulation to prevent the rich from abusing the 99%. fasttense Mar 2014 #279

I think we're much better off today than most Americans during the Gilded Age. Laelth Mar 2014 #341

But capitalism caused the Gilded Age as much as it has caused the current crisis. fasttense Mar 2014 #371

capitalism is dirty, filthy, unfair heaven05 Mar 2014 #151

Laelth, a sane, just, and humane capitalism appears to be out of our reach. Enthusiast Mar 2014 #154

I don't disagree. Laelth Mar 2014 #339

check out Gar Alperovitz's "What then is to be done" about democratic ownership zazen Mar 2014 #158

Thanks for the link. Laelth Mar 2014 #211

But that idealized capitalism is a chimera, it has never existed......... marmar Mar 2014 #161

Because it's a contradiction in terms. nt delrem Mar 2014 #178

No, 'socialism' doesn't mean state ownership of all property. delrem Mar 2014 #165

I am open to discussing your definition of socialism as soon as you produce it. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #224

Do your own work. nt delrem Mar 2014 #226

I'll let Harry S. Truman speak for me on this one. Laelth Mar 2014 #229

yes, I'm sure you feel righteous in your affirmations. delrem Mar 2014 #244

"Liberal" in the USA is not the same as globally. joshcryer Mar 2014 #171

Well,. there is that too nadinbrzezinski Mar 2014 #183

Capitalism fails without socialist reforms/checks fishwax Mar 2014 #184

Those programs have been called "socialist." Laelth Mar 2014 #227

nah, they were socialist fishwax Mar 2014 #247

Capitalism is based on profiting off of other people frwrfpos Mar 2014 #188

It is sad watching someone get socialism and communism mixed up. Rex Mar 2014 #192

That slur was particularly unkind. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #210

No offense, but it is true. I see that mistake made all the time here in Texas by RWingers. Rex Mar 2014 #212

It's all good. Laelth Mar 2014 #325

I see that now and appreciate the elaboration, which makes (for me) your OP make a lot more sense. Rex Mar 2014 #326

If I were to re-write the OP now, I'd do a much better job. Laelth Mar 2014 #327

Seems like a good time to post this. Didn't see it posted in this thread yet. redqueen Mar 2014 #213

I've given your exact explanation almost to right wingers treestar Mar 2014 #196

I know. Their understanding of political theory is often limited. Laelth Mar 2014 #201

From what I read above, some on the left might lop off your head for daring ... JoePhilly Mar 2014 #214

Thanks for the moral support and for the kind words. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #323

As with the judiciary, there are two systems... WhaTHellsgoingonhere Mar 2014 #217

Is what we currently have "capitalism"? Faryn Balyncd Mar 2014 #221

Killer-good post. Laelth Mar 2014 #333

Are you familiar with the work of Charles M. Kelly, Laelth? Faryn Balyncd Mar 2014 #348

Actually, no. I was not familiar with his work. Laelth Mar 2014 #358

I mostly agree with you. It the fetishizing of unfettered capitalism that creates economic chaos Bucky Mar 2014 #232

Capitalism may not be a dirty word but I'm not a liberal jimlup Mar 2014 #240

Your understanding of capitalism is flawed blackspade Mar 2014 #246

Agree with you on almost everything. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #258

I was trying to use modern terminology for 'socialism' blackspade Mar 2014 #263

I think you made up those definitions on the fly. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #268

Wrong in what way? blackspade Mar 2014 #270

There's no need for "regulation" in a socialist economy. lumberjack_jeff Mar 2014 #280

You're confusing socialist and state capitalist. NuclearDem Mar 2014 #281

I don't like your definitions, for reasons expressed above, but yes. Laelth Mar 2014 #334

This has been a very stimulating conversation actually. blackspade Mar 2014 #349

Capitalism is a practice, not a belief system. Deep13 Mar 2014 #251

I hear you, and I am aware of Marx's use of the word. Laelth Mar 2014 #335

ownership means control and dominion. Deep13 Mar 2014 #355

Sheesh MFrohike Mar 2014 #273

Perhaps, but context is relevant here. Laelth Mar 2014 #338

Oh, I got the context MFrohike Mar 2014 #340

Feel free to hide the thread if you don't like it. Laelth Mar 2014 #342

Sigh MFrohike Mar 2014 #354

The problem is that any criticism of capitalism is considered communistic by people who love liberal_at_heart Mar 2014 #274

All talk about the success of capitalism is based on a small exceptional period TheKentuckian Mar 2014 #275

That's like saying slavery is not the problem, it just needs better regulation. grahamhgreen Mar 2014 #285

Most people don't even know the meaning RobertEarl Mar 2014 #299

It's often forgotten that Liberalism is a capitalist ideology. WatermelonRat Mar 2014 #300

Quite. Laelth Mar 2014 #343

No, it's a clean word for a dirty system. JackRiddler Mar 2014 #302

It promotes a zero sum mentality that is detrimental to human developement. idendoit Mar 2014 #336

Social democracy like they have in Western Europe is basically the best thing that's been tested... Hippo_Tron Mar 2014 #337

Speak for yourself! In my world, capitalism *IS* a dirty word. Raksha Mar 2014 #350

In my book, Sweden is not a socialist country. Laelth Mar 2014 #360

Sweden uses a capitalist economic model soflo80 Mar 2014 #364

Sadly, we do not have a well-regulated, fair free market economy arcane1 Mar 2014 #365

+1 to soflo80. n/t Laelth Mar 2014 #367

It's "The 'C' Word" AgingAmerican Mar 2014 #366

When our "capitalists" lose money, our government runs in to bail them out. That's not "capitalism" Romulox Mar 2014 #376

You'll get no argument from me on that. Laelth Mar 2014 #377