General Discussion

morningfog

(18,115 posts)

106. You are confusing the issue.

Thu May 1, 2014, 09:47 PM

May 2014

The death penalty comes after an arrest, a conviction and a sentence. The point is there is no justification to that process resulting in a sentence of death. The only reason for supporting the DP that withstands logic is that the supporter wants to avenge the crimes of the convicted and they want to do that through killing.

Your Hitler hypothetical to be of any use to this discussion would resume the DP comes at the end of a conviction. Incarceration would be just as effective in preventing hypothetical future killings by him.

If you are asking whether in your time machine hypothetical one would be justified in killing Hitler before he engaged in genocide, I misunderstood your question and would not answer such a fantastical question as serious. That has nothing to do with the death penalty.

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If you support the death penalty, you support killing as revenge. [View all] morningfog May 2014 OP

I think it's a fool-proof deterrent to further crime. GeorgeGist May 2014 #1

You're right--they should kill shoplifters and jaywalkers, too. Orrex May 2014 #2

Yeah, because shoplifting and jaywalking causes the death of others. blueamy66 May 2014 #10

It wasn't an argument. Orrex May 2014 #11

Don't agree. blueamy66 May 2014 #13

You are appealing to emotionalism, which is a poor basis for a judicial system. Orrex May 2014 #16

I will admit that I find the "botched attempts" a bit barbaric... blueamy66 May 2014 #18

That's the call for vengeance, though. Orrex May 2014 #24

Let me think about what you wrote. blueamy66 May 2014 #36

ANSWER ME NOW DAMMIT1!!!!!!!!!!!1!!! Orrex May 2014 #37

"You are appealing to emotionalism ..." oldhippie May 2014 #39

Sure it's allowed, but that doesn't make it persuasive. Orrex May 2014 #43

so, answer barbarism with more barbarism. i find that barbaric. spanone May 2014 #185

Well, if you want to control crime... NuclearDem May 2014 #25

I never said that I wanted to control crime... blueamy66 May 2014 #87

So nations without the death penalty don't punish murderers? Scootaloo May 2014 #160

But not a deterrent to others, which us what the deterrent theory morningfog May 2014 #3

It works well doesn't it? Capt. Obvious May 2014 #7

Hmmmm H. Cromwell May 2014 #15

The fact that you justify someone being tortured to death. NuclearDem May 2014 #26

If causing suffering is wrong, then causing suffering is wrong Scootaloo May 2014 #161

And what of the cases where someone is wrongly executed? alphafemale May 2014 #213

So is life in jail. But states with the death penalty have higher murder rates than states that Maraya1969 May 2014 #42

Every statistic says otherwise Shoulders of Giants May 2014 #55

Unfortunately... Orrex May 2014 #59

It's not 100 percent effective Shoulders of Giants May 2014 #61

Sad but true (nt) Orrex May 2014 #67

Nope, intaglio May 2014 #158

For being fool-proof, it sure seems to have swept you up... n/t Scootaloo May 2014 #164

Strangely enough, despite having the Death Penalty - crime still happens. tenderfoot May 2014 #214

Boy it makes arguing easier when you just assign your opponents the basest motives el_bryanto May 2014 #4

If the death penalty doesn't save money or deter crime Shoulders of Giants May 2014 #56

It's a process of elimination. DanTex May 2014 #58

And if you were to talk with someone who supported the death penalty el_bryanto May 2014 #60

It depends the person. DanTex May 2014 #65

Which makes them bloodthirsty? nt el_bryanto May 2014 #66

Personally, I wouldn't use the term bloodthirsty ("eager to shed blood"), but it is arguable. DanTex May 2014 #69

That's my problem with this line of argument el_bryanto May 2014 #70

I'm much more comfortable with "revenge" than "bloodthirst", but the term I would use DanTex May 2014 #71

That's azmom May 2014 #83

It is vengence. Bloodthirtsy,I grant you, is more sensationalist. morningfog May 2014 #94

Call me the avenger azmom May 2014 #95

Not shame based. None of the other arguments withstand scrutiny. morningfog May 2014 #93

And there's the kicker - in an imperfect legal system, which is *every* legal system, inevitably nomorenomore08 May 2014 #204

Spot on. Puzzledtraveller May 2014 #102

I see executing someone like Ted Bundy like killing a rabid animal. hobbit709 May 2014 #5

Did he kill anyone while he was incarcerated? Orrex May 2014 #31

He escaped custody once and went on another spree. hobbit709 May 2014 #33

That's a great argument for more secure incarceration Orrex May 2014 #35

He also stood a very good chance of being acquitted at the time of his escape Major Nikon May 2014 #46

DP Calista241 May 2014 #6

except when they're not, but since when do we worry about government killing innocents? unblock May 2014 #51

I believe the DP in an insentive to murder. GOPee May 2014 #78

Thanks for telling me what I believe. cherokeeprogressive May 2014 #8

Strictly speaking, it's not telling you what you believe Orrex May 2014 #34

I'll try. cherokeeprogressive May 2014 #76

Thanks. Orrex May 2014 #81

As I ask upthread; do nations that lack the death penalty, not punish murderers? Scootaloo May 2014 #162

No, I don't support killing as revenge or vengeance. blueamy66 May 2014 #9

And what about the fact that, thanks to inherent human imperfection, a certain number of innocent nomorenomore08 May 2014 #205

Ah, yet another 'either or' ultimatum MO_Moderate May 2014 #12

Ironically, you condemn an "appeal to emotion" while appealing to emotion. Orrex May 2014 #19

Dollars and cents have nothing to do with my argument MO_Moderate May 2014 #45

"I was only responding to the weak anti death penalty claim that it is cheaper to keep them alive" Major Nikon May 2014 #47

Wow MO_Moderate May 2014 #48

So please do elaborate if you don't like someone else making reasonable assumptions Major Nikon May 2014 #50

You seem to believe that I don't understand your position on this. Orrex May 2014 #49

What do you tell to these people? Since we are into appeals to emotion nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #148

Hard to say what I would tell those people MO_Moderate May 2014 #169

So you think our legal system is flawless enough that virtually 100% of those on death row nomorenomore08 May 2014 #207

So the governor of Colorado exonerating a death penalty victim nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #217

"It may cost much more to house and execute, but it does not have to." nomorenomore08 May 2014 #206

Whatever, if it makes you feel morally superior.... Throd May 2014 #14

The battle to determine who is the reigning ... JoePhilly May 2014 #64

... Inkfreak May 2014 #82

Could not have azmom May 2014 #84

I have to laugh at those who lob the "moral superior" label while claiming the morningfog May 2014 #173

No merit it prevents future killing by an individual? REP May 2014 #17

it also stopped the wrongly executed from committing any murders CreekDog May 2014 #172

Then give me an alternative that prevents recidivism whatthehey May 2014 #20

And what about the estimated 4% or more of people on death row who are actually innocent? nomorenomore08 May 2014 #208

absolutley, everyone supporting DP is exactly that two dimensional Sheepshank May 2014 #21

All the replies in this thread prove my point. Not one has offered a viable alternative reason than morningfog May 2014 #22

Except you have ignored recidivism continually whatthehey May 2014 #23

As noted above, that's not actually an argument in favor of capital punishment Orrex May 2014 #27

Better supervision and control in prison. NuclearDem May 2014 #32

and? RandoLoodie May 2014 #28

Well, you're wrong in one point. Erich Bloodaxe BSN May 2014 #29

Death Penalty Not Needed to Prevent Prison Murder morningfog May 2014 #98

Oh dear.... Jeff In Milwaukee May 2014 #30

OK ... oldhippie May 2014 #38

I don't think that's true Prophet 451 May 2014 #40

I was thinking of the azmom May 2014 #85

It is about punishment not revenge. MicaelS May 2014 #41

interesting slippery slope argument. i suppose we'll want to abolish prisons entirely soon? unblock May 2014 #52

I am anti-mandatory LWOP too. morningfog May 2014 #54

Abosolutely not. No way. MicaelS May 2014 #74

The death penalty is dying. I predict it will end in the US within the next 10 years. morningfog May 2014 #79

You are correct about point one. MicaelS May 2014 #80

I get that. morningfog May 2014 #88

What would you do with a convicted murderer who kills again, in prison? MicaelS May 2014 #91

That rarely happens. The murder rate of COs in prison is much much lower than for morningfog May 2014 #92

Look at the countries with the DP, admire them? nt Logical May 2014 #86

I had no idea AnalystInParadise May 2014 #113

Glad you are getting the message! nt Logical May 2014 #153

The death penalty is barbaric and grossly unjust (and racist) in its application YoungDemCA May 2014 #44

+1000000 nomorenomore08 May 2014 #209

Yes, I support killing as revenge and I make no apologies. PeteSelman May 2014 #53

I don't support killing as revenge. Shoulders of Giants May 2014 #57

You can't avoid the innocent people issue that easily. DanTex May 2014 #62

You might want to rethink this. NuclearDem May 2014 #68

I see it as justice served. 840high May 2014 #105

I love when a psychic posts on DU. JoePhilly May 2014 #63

I sensed that you were going to post that. Orrex May 2014 #72

You're late ... JoePhilly May 2014 #73

LOL! oldhippie May 2014 #77

Any Nation that practices capital punishment cannot call itself a ladjf May 2014 #75

Not hundreds of US executions, 39 last year, 42 in each of the two previous years Bluenorthwest May 2014 #215

You are correct on the numbers. But, the exact number is irrelevant ladjf May 2014 #218

There is nothing azmom May 2014 #89

Are you saying justice isn't done in countries that have abolished the DP? n/t Violet_Crumble May 2014 #189

In my view, justice is not azmom May 2014 #190

I live in a country where the DP was officially abolished in 1973... Violet_Crumble May 2014 #192

These azmom May 2014 #199

I agree but believe there is a time and place for revenge that can involve the DP arely staircase May 2014 #90

Ok AnalystInParadise May 2014 #96

Then what are your reasons for supporting state-sanctioned killing? morningfog May 2014 #97

No I have thought it through very clearly AnalystInParadise May 2014 #104

The death penalty has absolutely nothing to do with justice baldguy May 2014 #112

That is your opinion AnalystInParadise May 2014 #115

How was the torture that occured in Oklahoma justice? baldguy May 2014 #151

Got it. Your concept of justice is revenge. morningfog May 2014 #114

Not at all....... AnalystInParadise May 2014 #116

"Justice is watching the criminal die for his horrible crimes" morningfog May 2014 #118

Wow judgemental and charming AnalystInParadise May 2014 #124

Should Hitler have faced the death penalty? Skip Intro May 2014 #99

No. morningfog May 2014 #100

Well hold on a minute. Skip Intro May 2014 #101

You are confusing the issue. morningfog May 2014 #106

Question was among a larger expressed thought on the subject. Skip Intro May 2014 #110

I don't agree with you. When 840high May 2014 #107

Because you want to avenge their deaths. morningfog May 2014 #109

You seem to confuse the terms revenge and justice. AnalystInParadise May 2014 #117

You are letting your mask slip again. morningfog May 2014 #119

What mask might that be? AnalystInParadise May 2014 #121

Figure it out. morningfog May 2014 #123

Yes I do know who I am AnalystInParadise May 2014 #125

You know who are and what you are here to do. morningfog May 2014 #129

Please continue AnalystInParadise May 2014 #133

Ignore. morningfog May 2014 #139

So wait AnalystInParadise May 2014 #143

"Cmon tough guy or girl." Texasgal May 2014 #178

It's the man up for 840high May 2014 #126

Good luck friend AnalystInParadise May 2014 #128

Good thing I'm going to bed. Sweet dreams. 840high May 2014 #131

It isn't always the jury that decides. morningfog May 2014 #132

About as fucked up AnalystInParadise May 2014 #134

Get bent. morningfog May 2014 #138

I agree. But humans are emotional animals. flvegan May 2014 #103

Ummm...so? Katashi_itto May 2014 #108

Many here try to confuse the issue with failed logic and false arguments. morningfog May 2014 #111

My argument is not false nor is my logic. AnalystInParadise May 2014 #120

Punishment is revenge, genius. morningfog May 2014 #122

No I am logical AnalystInParadise May 2014 #127

No it's not. You 840high May 2014 #130

I get that a lot of people disagree with me, and often. I'm not even trying to change their minds. morningfog May 2014 #137

So only you are right AnalystInParadise May 2014 #144

The basis can be to azmom May 2014 #170

How is "pay with your life" not a statement of revenge? morningfog May 2014 #171

Pay with your life is a punishment azmom May 2014 #174

Death is not a punishment. morningfog May 2014 #175

We azmom May 2014 #186

From wiki azmom May 2014 #187

It's entertaining that you believe you just presented a logical argument tkmorris May 2014 #135

I fully acknowledge I am only speaking my own opinion. AnalystInParadise May 2014 #141

It's been abundantly clear, though you don't present it as opinion tkmorris May 2014 #152

In that case I guess I support revenge. Demobrat May 2014 #136

Hit a nerve? morningfog May 2014 #140

Post removed Post removed May 2014 #142

I already said I want revenge Demobrat May 2014 #145

Well then I assume you will be called a monster AnalystInParadise May 2014 #146

I assume I will be called both. Demobrat May 2014 #147

Oh, the better, better, better comments weren't personal? morningfog May 2014 #149

I told you what you wanted to hear. Demobrat May 2014 #150

If there is no deterrent Riftaxe May 2014 #154

Deterrence, when discussing sentencing, generally refers to the deterrent effect prior to morningfog May 2014 #155

I don't think you understand what "deterrent" means Scootaloo May 2014 #163

DP should have tiers Politicalboi May 2014 #156

Life in prison without parole PumpkinAle May 2014 #157

I love the defensive nature of some of these posts. U4ikLefty May 2014 #159

No, they're probably mad at being subjected to intellectual dishonesty. Shandris May 2014 #165

They are mad at the construct of my point, but morningfog May 2014 #166

I thought I spelled out QUITE CLEARLY that I'm not pro-DP. That doesn't mean... Shandris May 2014 #167

You did make it clear. You also mentioned past support. morningfog May 2014 #168

Headache = excuse U4ikLefty May 2014 #193

I get it - your OP is the flipside of accusing anti-DPers are cuddling criminals. aikoaiko May 2014 #176

Offer another justification that withstands facts and logic. morningfog May 2014 #177

A measured execution is not the most punitive response possible and it is not the least. aikoaiko May 2014 #183

That make zero sense. U4ikLefty May 2014 #194

Life with eligibility of parole is not a guarantee of parole and release. morningfog May 2014 #196

I will admit that I am not as evolved as some of you in this thread. I still am hung up on revenge. Rex May 2014 #179

I still don't see what's wrong with revenge, either .... oldhippie May 2014 #182

Well if unconditional love and forgiveness are the enlightened way, I still have a long ways to go. Rex May 2014 #184

I think azmom May 2014 #191

reckoning oneofthe99 May 2014 #188

And, to be honest, I get that. morningfog May 2014 #197

I agree, because I can also see the barbarism of purposly killing someone. Rex May 2014 #211

I totally agree with azmom May 2014 #212

Message auto-removed Name removed May 2014 #180

Let me add this to the discussion nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #181

An 86 year old woman was beaten to azmom May 2014 #195

It simply does not change depending on what the crime charged is. morningfog May 2014 #198

It certainly has to azmom May 2014 #200

The state used to be able to put juveniles to death. morningfog May 2014 #201

I hope you are azmom May 2014 #202

"we all have different views on things." bobduca May 2014 #210

A six year old was raped, had his head caved in, nadinbrzezinski May 2014 #216

the death penalty is barbaric, and there are a lot of barbaric people responding in this thread.... mike_c May 2014 #203