General Discussion

LadyHawkAZ

(6,199 posts)

257. Have you run a statistical program to show that it IS a gender slur?

Tue Jul 8, 2014, 10:42 PM

Jul 2014

You're the one that uses it regularly, you tell me. Were you in fact knowingly using a gender slur? If yes, then yes. If no, then no.

No, "swarm" is not gendered, generally speaking. And you know this. You use it yourself.

Soooo.... tell me and save me the search, who in your group got the hide/vacation last night? I'm thinking not long prior to this OP being posted, maybe an hour or two?
ETA: never mind. It was you.

My posts on HL can be found here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5178892
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5172312
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5179765
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5191288
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5191813
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=5207386

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Gangs and swarms [View all] BainsBane Jul 2014 OP

It takes 5 people (of any gender) to make a gang (one G.U., or Gang Unit) DisgustipatedinCA Jul 2014 #1

On DU BainsBane Jul 2014 #2

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #5

It's the same "group" that a handful of hosts gleefully ignore the alerts of. PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #54

I beg to differ ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #230

Someone pointed that out downthread BainsBane Jul 2014 #232

Some men just can't handle a woman telling them they're wrong about something Warpy Jul 2014 #3

So true. BainsBane Jul 2014 #4

How sexist is this "Wo-mansplaining?" We couldn't possibly understand because we have a penis. Electric Monk Jul 2014 #13

stop with the false equivalencies BainsBane Jul 2014 #15

Yes, that has to be it. Of course. Electric Monk Jul 2014 #16

You should self-delete this pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #19

Now I understand why you're defending that DUer's behavior kcr Jul 2014 #17

I know how to read, and what assorted punctuations mean. Yes, indeed. nt Electric Monk Jul 2014 #20

Hm. Why did you edit out your "yes, dear" response upthread? kcr Jul 2014 #23

To keep the swarm happy. Good night, I'm out of here. Electric Monk Jul 2014 #25

The "swarm"? pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #36

really mercuryblues Jul 2014 #72

Men who demean Women are afraid of Women and dont like them much... randys1 Jul 2014 #203

Lovely post, but I don't see what it has to do with mine. Want to read a really interesting post? Electric Monk Jul 2014 #205

It has everything to do with it, seems to me you were demeaning Women randys1 Jul 2014 #206

Thanks for womansplaining that to me. I'm playing BainsBanes game back at her, is what I'm doing. nt Electric Monk Jul 2014 #207

Nice find! RiffRandell Jul 2014 #261

WOW ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #233

Some people don't see the irony. Others can laugh at it. I prefer to laugh. nt Electric Monk Jul 2014 #238

And still others ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #247

So true. bravenak Jul 2014 #249

Don't you like my display of restraint? ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #250

You are doing a fine job, a terrific job! bravenak Jul 2014 #251

I WOULD tell you; but ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #253

Not an easy thing to do these days, is it, 1SBM? sheshe2 Jul 2014 #254

really? BainsBane Jul 2014 #24

I too asked for a response... sheshe2 Jul 2014 #37

I saw that BainsBane Jul 2014 #73

Not the most important issue, but I've never seen the word "punctuations" before. merrily Jul 2014 #26

By their punctuations ye shall know them pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #39

? ! merrily Jul 2014 #41

We all have semicolons tattooed somewhere on our bodies. We got them in our initiation ceremony. Squinch Jul 2014 #51

yeah BainsBane Jul 2014 #21

Sorry, Slick, but you'd better rethink this because you're dead wrong. Warpy Jul 2014 #71

The thing is a woman gave birth to them. rbrnmw Jul 2014 #27

"The thing is a woman gave birth to them." That was our first mistake. Squinch Jul 2014 #66

Ouch, Squinch! sheshe2 Jul 2014 #255

. Squinch Jul 2014 #311

. sheshe2 Jul 2014 #316

Obviously they have not tried to tell my wife she is wrong about something. L0oniX Jul 2014 #88

Yup, nailed it. K&R nt TBF Jul 2014 #103

+1000 smirkymonkey Jul 2014 #214

But the ones posting sexist crap and those who defend them and alert on those objecting to it kcr Jul 2014 #6

isn't it? BainsBane Jul 2014 #7

I did see that. It's such bullshit. kcr Jul 2014 #10

one juror even went on BainsBane Jul 2014 #11

Because, swarm kcr Jul 2014 #14

I must have summoned them BainsBane Jul 2014 #18

I KNEW IT WAS YOU!!! pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #22

if I weren't on my phone BainsBane Jul 2014 #28

I want that superpower! TDale313 Jul 2014 #29

Nah, it's the "hive mind" (kidding). BTW, that particular poster has been getting away w/crap KittyWampus Jul 2014 #128

When someone regularly takes positions BainsBane Jul 2014 #133

LOL! smirkymonkey Jul 2014 #215

That hide was ridiculous. n/t TDale313 Jul 2014 #32

Wait ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #237

OMG! sheshe2 Jul 2014 #263

You are completely ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #268

Yikes! sheshe2 Jul 2014 #272

Someone suggested that the reaction to quinnox's latest thread was a gang pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #8

Precisely BainsBane Jul 2014 #9

Thanks for that post. cyberswede Jul 2014 #12

Thanks. There were comments, even threads, posted about merrily Jul 2014 #30

And you had the vast majority of DU's male members with you pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #33

I think to a certain extent, because I'm a straight white guy, I get to be just an individual nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #35

I believe that. Hence posts of mine that express the opinion that merrily Jul 2014 #74

This - exactly JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #77

I wish juries reflected that sentiment. BainsBane Jul 2014 #89

Wow. I missed all that, because I have the OP on ignore. Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #40

His defense was that he "forgot" Chris's circumstances pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #42

I would think if one didn't remember BainsBane Jul 2014 #90

not just prudent but, decent. The decent thing to have done was own it and apologize Tuesday Afternoon Jul 2014 #140

I have that OP on ignore as well and missed it all. stevenleser Jul 2014 #70

And after refusing to self delete- he PMd a host asking them to lock it for them despite other hosts bettyellen Jul 2014 #80

Please post both threads, I want to see them. Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #81

Gladly- here is the host's thread related to this topic: bettyellen Jul 2014 #86

and another one, wherein a host judges a "group" or swarm of DUers at about post 44 or so: bettyellen Jul 2014 #91

"Nasty and vicious" BainsBane Jul 2014 #95

So... No comment on dragging stuff out of administrative forums anymore? opiate69 Jul 2014 #148

You are the expert on that $200 question BainsBane Jul 2014 #155

I believe Skinner said there's no rule against it... cyberswede Jul 2014 #179

Nah... Just felt like pointing out some astonishing opiate69 Jul 2014 #185

Yep. nt RiffRandell Jul 2014 #276

Unlike yourself BainsBane Jul 2014 #284

No, because he can't alert on an "absence of outrage" BainsBane Jul 2014 #290

Another wow. Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #101

Here's another one wherein hosts bash alerters PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #107

The system looks pretty broken. Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #130

here's a screenshot of part of it. PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #143

That is SO much easier to read! Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #152

There were 5-6 alerters on that - and instead of seeing that it was bothering more DUers, it was bettyellen Jul 2014 #111

You want another WOW- the OP PMs a host asking them to lock - knowing it is against consensus.... bettyellen Jul 2014 #220

Whoa. Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #221

very sad to see him ensnare a host to game the system, but there it is. bettyellen Jul 2014 #224

I have been reading there all day, bettyellen. OMG! sheshe2 Jul 2014 #265

yeah, he actually called it a lynching and a witch hunt- pretty funny imagery considering bettyellen Jul 2014 #267

And sadly he laughs and gets away with it, bettyellen. sheshe2 Jul 2014 #269

That is a wow, making hosting decisions on his own post without consensus should be bannable Bjorn Against Jul 2014 #231

Tht is a pretty good summary of what has happened. Very sad he enlisted a fairly respected DUer bettyellen Jul 2014 #234

What I don't understand is why DURHAM D Jul 2014 #239

well they also ignore the elephant in the room bettyellen Jul 2014 #244

Off topic BainsBane Jul 2014 #289

The refusal to provide a reason BainsBane Jul 2014 #182

Oh my god. Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #93

Yep- we need transparency, so all of DU can see the hosts sitting in judgment of alerters- bettyellen Jul 2014 #126

"All of the alerters are in the same Group." zappaman Jul 2014 #141

Oh I finally got an answer- apparently they assumed I was posting pro NSA.... bettyellen Jul 2014 #149

"Pro NSA"??? zappaman Jul 2014 #154

Yeah- it's pretty hilarious that people who go on about the NSA and spying are making secret lists! bettyellen Jul 2014 #189

Does the Host know that it was the OP which mentioned the Name of the DU Member they trashed JI7 Jul 2014 #177

Sorry J17, a bit confused over what host you are asking about.... bettyellen Jul 2014 #190

i might be confused from the way i read that JI7 Jul 2014 #196

It is yet another case of anger and blame misdirected at alerters, instead of the person who very bettyellen Jul 2014 #198

Hey Bettyellen! BainsBane Jul 2014 #92

OMG- please send me that! I got quite a few PMs from jurors who said I was being "swarmed" by alerts bettyellen Jul 2014 #94

wow- crappy hide. Sorry that some judge the poster and not content here..... bettyellen Jul 2014 #113

one of the worst things i have seen on DU JI7 Jul 2014 #264

good observation CreekDog Jul 2014 #288

k&r rbrnmw Jul 2014 #31

It is a curious word choice, at the least. Almost implies insecurity or paranoia, to me. nomorenomore08 Jul 2014 #34

If people are going to use gang and swarm as an insult, JoeyT Jul 2014 #38

If anythng deserves an award, it's "penis to opinion ratio" pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #43

This post is gold. Squinch Jul 2014 #64

Thank you. myrna minx Jul 2014 #69

This post is a DUzy. In_The_Wind Jul 2014 #97

Kind of like ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #240

BREAKING NEWS: The hosts finally locked quinnox's thread pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #44

It was only at his request. He pm'd a host and asked them to lock it as a favor PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #45

Thanks for that report pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #47

ya' Better Believe It DURHAM D Jul 2014 #52

More shenanigans from Hosts... SidDithers Jul 2014 #53

quinnox always gets special treatment from some of his host pals. PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #56

Not surprising at all... SidDithers Jul 2014 #58

Ugh! smirkymonkey Jul 2014 #226

hosts didn't, and you know that. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #123

So now we have a ... 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #242

Wow. Starry Messenger Jul 2014 #67

That's messed up. MerryBlooms Jul 2014 #83

Oh no, one rogue host locked that thread with absolutly no consensus but based on boston bean Jul 2014 #46

I wish I was shocked by some GD Host's behavior. DURHAM D Jul 2014 #48

I'm in there fighting my ass off being with no response from the one who locked it boston bean Jul 2014 #49

To me,l ocking that thread was a no-brainer and I'm just surprised it took so long. nt pinboy3niner Jul 2014 #55

it's a quandary. it should have been locked right away. PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #57

no it should not have been "locked right away". Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #127

I should have clarified that IF it was going to be locked PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #131

again, "right away" is not appropriate. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #134

k PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #136

If your opinion is to let everyone discuss whatever the hell they want to discuss, Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #139

not what I wrote, was it? Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #144

So, if you don't care to enforce the SOP, why do you host? Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #147

I actually read and understood the guidlines for hosting gd. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #150

Funny- I have noticed Earl G stepping in with some mighty fine locks the last few months- as well as bettyellen Jul 2014 #208

And exactly how often has that happened? Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #307

I think I saw three in a short span recently- all pretty awful OPS with many alerts bettyellen Jul 2014 #309

First rule of GD Hosting... DURHAM D Jul 2014 #59

we are not moderators. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #125

Lol Union Scribe Jul 2014 #312

I voted to leave the op because there was no reason to lock it. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #318

It's quite interesting to see which host locked that. Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #50

Is this a correct summation...? LanternWaste Jul 2014 #159

Jesus. BainsBane Jul 2014 #65

I can think of some other members BainsBane Jul 2014 #68

"personal hosting services" - yep , it's like their own concierge that they call when they take a bettyellen Jul 2014 #115

Sounds like an abuse of privileges to me. Bobbie Jo Jul 2014 #75

Wow - I just read through both of those threads. Sheldon Cooper Jul 2014 #82

breakinger news: no we didn't. Warren Stupidity Jul 2014 #122

When will they lock this one? nt Union Scribe Jul 2014 #172

I don't have that kind of pull BainsBane Jul 2014 #195

Actually they're blocking for you Union Scribe Jul 2014 #212

Not sure why my Meta thread would be prohibited BainsBane Jul 2014 #213

Say, I just remembered a feeding frenzy BainsBane Jul 2014 #222

Link? Union Scribe Jul 2014 #235

It was the thread on supposed ageism BainsBane Jul 2014 #252

That's not my recollection. Union Scribe Jul 2014 #260

This thread was not a call out BainsBane Jul 2014 #273

This thread isn't about any particular poster??? Union Scribe Jul 2014 #314

I don't know what to say about your reaction to this thread BainsBane Jul 2014 #315

Good. Finally some sense has creeped into this post. smirkymonkey Jul 2014 #225

more breaking news: he's no longer with us PeaceNikki Jul 2014 #310

First things first JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #60

That particular thing has been going on forever. Seriously, it only shows how antiquated these guys' Squinch Jul 2014 #61

I can't post right now heading out the door to the doctors. William769 Jul 2014 #62

For context JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #63

This thread is a perfect example of what is unfortunately referred to as the swarm elias7 Jul 2014 #76

Please do JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #78

Did you really need to go there? bravenak Jul 2014 #79

Silly. He can't swarm BainsBane Jul 2014 #98

My bad. bravenak Jul 2014 #100

As women we "swarm" collectively. No free thinking needed, just follow the leader. sheshe2 Jul 2014 #119

This message was self-deleted by its author Bobbie Jo Jul 2014 #84

Please do BainsBane Jul 2014 #87

This... elias7 Jul 2014 #138

Please answer the questions in the OP BainsBane Jul 2014 #163

and what is this thread an example of? bettyellen Jul 2014 #96

Yep. nt Union Scribe Jul 2014 #173

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Jul 2014 #217

got me mercuryblues Jul 2014 #85

Yes, there is one member BainsBane Jul 2014 #99

I'm still amazed that women can agree on something. IronLionZion Jul 2014 #102

Stahp it!! bravenak Jul 2014 #104

You should watch baby elephants use their trunks for the first time IronLionZion Jul 2014 #108

Good idea.nt bravenak Jul 2014 #110

Now, now BainsBane Jul 2014 #105

If you can't dazzle them with brilliance, IronLionZion Jul 2014 #106

I had a feeling we'd meet before BainsBane Jul 2014 #109

The dating situation in Minnesota was really good for me. IronLionZion Jul 2014 #112

I'm amused when someone here calls me part of a gang or swarm. Gormy Cuss Jul 2014 #114

I don't think anyone could accuse me of being part of any swarm shanine Jul 2014 #117

the hosts here lable people who alert as troublemakers- it's never the OP, unless it is by someone bettyellen Jul 2014 #121

"Sewing circle" has a much more feminine ring to it. We should petition for Nuclear Unicorn Jul 2014 #116

... Gormy Cuss Jul 2014 #118

Men are forceful and show leadership where women are dictatorial and bossy.... Rowdyboy Jul 2014 #120

So it seems BainsBane Jul 2014 #135

I wonder if anything is going on in the real world... Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #124

Nothing much BainsBane Jul 2014 #129

LMAO Jamaal510 Jul 2014 #142

I am aware of the Hobby Lobby decision. It sucks pretty bad. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #145

Yes, well you have to follow the dots backward BainsBane Jul 2014 #157

Wait, was the person saying it just wasn't important the same DUer who first suggested redqueen Jul 2014 #181

Yes BainsBane Jul 2014 #194

Interesting. nt redqueen Jul 2014 #201

Perfect Response! eom. 1StrongBlackMan Jul 2014 #243

I'd imagine were that a sincere query, you could rather easily find out. LanternWaste Jul 2014 #132

You would imagine correctly. And guess what? There's lots going on. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #146

One may only imagine the disconnect felt by the half-wit who is unable to extrapolate ideas LanternWaste Jul 2014 #153

You can put your snark and insults where they belong. Comrade Grumpy Jul 2014 #184

That little ditty survived a jury 2-5 Inkfreak Jul 2014 #210

Yes - the rights of women are under assault from 5 unelected SC justices. myrna minx Jul 2014 #137

Sorry but I coined the term 'gunswarmers' a couple years ago. Kingofalldems Jul 2014 #151

Really? I've never seen it BainsBane Jul 2014 #156

So are you saying that I am lying? Kingofalldems Jul 2014 #158

I'm saying that I haven't seen it BainsBane Jul 2014 #160

Are you really trying to play the victim here? muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #161

What in the hell are you talking about? Kingofalldems Jul 2014 #165

Using the term "swarm" was whining muriel_volestrangler Jul 2014 #166

That's a question and a statement. Not whining Kingofalldems Jul 2014 #167

It's whining when they disagree with your point. Much the way this thread is meta only because bettyellen Jul 2014 #193

You are wrong. Vattel Jul 2014 #162

Please, provide examples BainsBane Jul 2014 #164

Seriously? Maybe you should have checked yourself before you irresponsibly created this thread. Vattel Jul 2014 #169

Is your claim there is no gendered use of the term whatsoever BainsBane Jul 2014 #170

You haven't shown that the term is more frequently used to refer to groups of women. Vattel Jul 2014 #175

I have seen it to refer to feminists BainsBane Jul 2014 #176

I will also post to you, because you carry the banner for feminists to a large extent- KittyWampus Jul 2014 #180

This message was self-deleted by its author Vattel Jul 2014 #211

yes, a host confirmed to me - they ignore people who are not perceived as being concerned enough bettyellen Jul 2014 #219

Interesting nexus of misogynists and Snowden fans. Apparently it carries over into the GD Hosts. KittyWampus Jul 2014 #178

Used by quinnox yesterday JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #168

People are free to trash any word they want BainsBane Jul 2014 #171

Exactly! JustAnotherGen Jul 2014 #174

Advanced search is fun LadyHawkAZ Jul 2014 #183

Thanks. I hadn't realized I'd used the word in that context BainsBane Jul 2014 #187

Speaking as a nonpartisan observer Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #200

I realize that. BainsBane Jul 2014 #202

No doubt some do. Tetris_Iguana Jul 2014 #204

That was my point BainsBane Jul 2014 #209

You are right. kcr Jul 2014 #218

I certainly shouldn't be using a word that I'm critical of BainsBane Jul 2014 #223

this is a democratic board, it reminds me of people excusing saying nasty things about Democratic JI7 Jul 2014 #266

false equivalence indeed. i peeped at the old Mortos thread and saw all these great women who bettyellen Jul 2014 #270

Which thread is that, bettyellen? BainsBane Jul 2014 #294

Thank you for doing the leg work! Sometimes the arguments here kill me... likesmountains 52 Jul 2014 #188

Well this thread seems kind of meta Harmony Blue Jul 2014 #259

Does that prove to you the word has no gendered usage? BainsBane Jul 2014 #192

If you're complaining about what I think you're complaining about LadyHawkAZ Jul 2014 #197

I asked you a question BainsBane Jul 2014 #199

Have you run a statistical program to show that it IS a gender slur? LadyHawkAZ Jul 2014 #257

Hmmm. RiffRandell Jul 2014 #280

Not very observant are you? BainsBane Jul 2014 #291

Lmao! RiffRandell Jul 2014 #298

Oh yes, I remember BainsBane Jul 2014 #292

Seven posts LadyHawkAZ Jul 2014 #302

Ouch! RiffRandell Jul 2014 #262

Well well then. Kingofalldems Jul 2014 #274

Thanks for those. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #293

How about reading what i actually wrote BainsBane Jul 2014 #295

Actually, I did read what you wrote. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #296

You do know I wrote that before the member did the search on my own use of the word BainsBane Jul 2014 #297

Yes, I do know that you wrote that before she did the search on your use of the word. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #299

Then it is factually false BainsBane Jul 2014 #300

What I see is that you continue to imply... NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #301

I don't imply it BainsBane Jul 2014 #304

Seriously? "Swarm" is like the N-word? NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #305

No, it is not like the N word BainsBane Jul 2014 #317

Flamebait with a touch of smokescreen LadyHawkAZ Jul 2014 #303

You have to admit that it's effective flamebait, though. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #306

.....Wait. Are you serious? AverageJoe90 Jul 2014 #186

With due respect, if you've never seen it here Gormy Cuss Jul 2014 #228

I think I've seen a few occasional examples. AverageJoe90 Jul 2014 #236

"Occasional examples" XemaSab Jul 2014 #241

TBH, I have noticed that also..... bettyellen Jul 2014 #245

Augh, you're talking like him now! XemaSab Jul 2014 #246

"I'm a mocker!" - Ringo "birthday boy" Starr. ;-D bettyellen Jul 2014 #248

I started mocking and became addicted. betsuni Jul 2014 #256

Have you *actually* done research on what I've recced, by the way? AverageJoe90 Jul 2014 #258

I did a search for your interactions with speck tater XemaSab Jul 2014 #271

And when you google AverageJoe90 and sexism this is the second thing that comes up: XemaSab Jul 2014 #275

And that actually *has* happened, unfortunately. AverageJoe90 Jul 2014 #277

Yeah, bull-fucking-shit XemaSab Jul 2014 #278

Sure, sure. But will you actually read what I've written *in context*? AverageJoe90 Jul 2014 #279

I'm finding much more interesting reading than that XemaSab Jul 2014 #281

Sorry to say, but none of these are really hurting my position, though, TBH. AverageJoe90 Jul 2014 #283

What color is the sky on your planet? XemaSab Jul 2014 #285

Regardless, you could keep trying all night if you wanted to. AverageJoe90 Jul 2014 #286

Strange, when I saw your OP title I thoght of..... Armstead Jul 2014 #191

Weak men... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2014 #216

"It's not a gang, it's a club" smirkymonkey Jul 2014 #227

If we disagree, we hear about how women can't all agree on anything BainsBane Jul 2014 #229

Gangs and swarms on DU: Exhibit A, it's self-referemtial, and we're posting in it Electric Monk Jul 2014 #282

Did you know what would transpire in the hosts room? BainsBane Jul 2014 #287

I've been a sideline observer of this thread until now theHandpuppet Jul 2014 #308

Thanks very much for your thoughtful and fascinating post BainsBane Jul 2014 #313