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fujiyama

(15,185 posts)
73. It's easy to blame this on Zionism but that's not a solution to this conflict
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 03:36 PM
Jul 2014

The modern conflict in the region is in part due to the Zionist movement, but it's difficult for me not to empathize with some of their early goals to an extent though the theft of others' land is difficult to reconcile.

Considering the history of antisemitism throughout the world and particularly in Europe, it was clear by the end of the 19th century, to many Jews that a homeland free of persecution was needed. As the Ottoman Empire fell, more Jews began migrating to the region under the British mandate. Obviously this need was felt greater than ever with the holocaust.

Most people would say - and rightly so - that a homeland for the Jews should have been paid not by the indigenous Arabs living there for generations - but by Europeans themselves. A Jewish homeland in the heart of Europe would have made more sense in many ways, as most Jews that founded Israel were European in culture and recent residence. But I think to most Jews, Europe was not the center of their religious culture and the myths they were raised on for the thousand-plus years they were scattered about. The isolation forced upon them throughout the continent never made them part of the countries they resided in. I remember hearing that during the early part of the movement, a state in the African continent was considered - somewhere in Uganda I think.

But of course, the "real homeland" - Israel, or Palestine as it had come to be known - had people residing there for many centuries. To kick them off their land was wrong - and bloody. These were innocent people, whose land was ultimately stolen from them.

But so much of history is about land being taken from others. What the Palestinians have endured is wrong, but after more than three major wars, all of which ended in defeat and more land being lost, the Arab nations should have realized that forging a lasting peace with the goal of a second state for the Palestinians was the only real solution. Instead the Palestinian movement became taken over by radical Islamic groups - not with the goal of establishing a thriving and independent state of Palestine, but "driving the Jews to the sea". And of course, most subsequent Israeli governments since '67 have only made half-hearted attempts build a lasting peace. Instead more land in the West Bank has been occupied by a radical religious settler movement with harsher and more humiliating conditions for the people living there.

It's a mess and very few US presidents have had success building any peace. Carter did with Egypt (because he also was the most balanced in his treatment of both sides) - and Clinton was close. Of all the Presidents I've read about regarding Israel policy, Clinton seems the most informed. I've always enjoyed his interviews on the region. Republican presidents have merely treated Israel as a pawn for the religious right, as an outpost during the Cold War or simply within the lens of oil politics.

The 6 Day War determined , and doubled Israels territory . orpupilofnature57 Jul 2014 #1
Baloney. BillZBubb Jul 2014 #79
Didn't say that, Pay attention . orpupilofnature57 Jul 2014 #117
The Modern Beginning, Sir The Magistrate Jul 2014 #2
Precisely malaise Jul 2014 #4
I was only a little girl in 1948 connecticut yankee Jul 2014 #38
I wasn't born yet malaise Jul 2014 #39
And as I said it Doubled after 1967 . orpupilofnature57 Jul 2014 #44
And you were wrong. BillZBubb Jul 2014 #80
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Six-Day_War orpupilofnature57 Jul 2014 #118
You've Nailed it !!!!!!!!!! orpupilofnature57 Jul 2014 #43
That pretty much hits the nail on the head. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #9
The Arab states invaded Israel almost immediately after UN Partition tritsofme Jul 2014 #3
That was in 1948 cpwm17 Jul 2014 #7
Apparently, that Israel "right to exist" brentspeak Jul 2014 #54
There was no going back to normal after the 1948 War tritsofme Jul 2014 #60
It also exposed the Israelis' proprensity to steal other people's homes and property brentspeak Jul 2014 #66
That's natural isn't it? treestar Jul 2014 #64
Jews had been living British Palestine for years. tritsofme Jul 2014 #65
Do you consider building settlements in the West Bank "living in peace"? LittleBlue Jul 2014 #72
In recent years tritsofme Jul 2014 #124
this is a simplified version of reality from an extremely partisan viewpoint cali Jul 2014 #5
I think the analysis is accurate, not one-sided. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #10
The OP fails to mention that the U.N. proposal was for two states. cali Jul 2014 #49
No. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #59
No. The genesis of Zionism is rooted in cali Jul 2014 #74
No, it was not. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #92
You appear not to understand the reason Bonobo Jul 2014 #94
This is a fair analysis Lithos Jul 2014 #104
You say you do not understand the rational for placing the Jewish nation in a land far away from the Fred Sanders Jul 2014 #6
It was Babylonians, in the 6th Century BCE, HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #13
except the Bible is a collection of ancient folktales, not a legal document librechik Jul 2014 #51
A bit more history. PDJane Jul 2014 #8
Excuse me but you seem to be wrong rickyhall Jul 2014 #26
That is the religious view. The truth is something else, as it often is. PDJane Jul 2014 #32
That's a very interesting article. NaturalHigh Jul 2014 #40
Do not forget the roles of one Benjamin Disraeli and Charles Henry Churchill malaise Jul 2014 #30
that is insane crap. really insane. yikes. cali Jul 2014 #76
You. No one should credit a word you say on this issue. cali Jul 2014 #75
Really? Would you like to show me those deleted posts? I think there's one..... PDJane Jul 2014 #93
Christian Rapture Fans were all for it.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #11
Yes, and that weird interpretation of Revelation only started happening LuvNewcastle Jul 2014 #15
I have hope because the Millennials are asking fundamental questions. Like, "Why?" Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #16
They seem to be a lot more savvy when it comes to spotting LuvNewcastle Jul 2014 #24
Kinda like blind support of,...well,...ANYTHING. Including CAPITALISM. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #34
DUly RECommended Roy Serohz Jul 2014 #12
In answer to your question, The United Nations. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #14
Someone needs to tell them that persecution shouldn't be passed on. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #17
A nation born under siege and surrounded will always be on a defensive footing. eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #18
Jewish people used to be all over the Middle East living side by side with Arabs in peace... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #19
You're free to believe that MohRokTah Jul 2014 #21
Newsflash: Arabs are a semitic people too.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #27
Anti-zionist is inherently anti-semitic. eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #28
Wrong, Zionism is inherently Right Wing Authoritarian... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #31
. MohRokTah Jul 2014 #33
Keep up the canned FALSE CHOICE... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #36
Did you just pull the Holocaust card? U4ikLefty Jul 2014 #41
And which history card do you think is relevant? Maybe the one which shows the assassination attempt WinkyDink Jul 2014 #50
No it's not. Some Zionism is and some isn't. It's a term that encapsulates cali Jul 2014 #81
Typical. It's now time to accuse me of being "ignorant" and to tell me to go away.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #86
Again, ignorance about why Orthodox Jews Bonobo Jul 2014 #95
Anyone who claims they are the chosen ones loses the argument. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #96
Huh? Bonobo Jul 2014 #97
No matter WHAT I post at this point it's going to written off.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #98
That's why it is hilarious Bonobo Jul 2014 #100
What's funny is the claim that being against Israeli aggression means you MUST hate the Jews. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #105
Then don't make anti-semitic statements like: Bonobo Jul 2014 #107
Absolutely NOT. I DON'T see that when it comes to anyone beating the shit out of someone else.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #109
Repeat. Your insulting statement was about JUDAISM, not ISRAEL. Bonobo Jul 2014 #110
I never posted ANYTHING against the actual Jewish People.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #113
It might be with some people, but there are plenty of people Arugula Latte Jul 2014 #68
That is certainly true, but some posts in this thread are nothing but demonization cali Jul 2014 #82
Anti-semitism is term coined to make hatred of jews more palatable and more scientific sounding cali Jul 2014 #77
the term "Anti-semitism" is used as a club to cut off criticism of Israel. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #85
anti-semetic sabbat hunter Jul 2014 #103
Pssst.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #106
psst sabbat hunter Jul 2014 #108
Oh, you mean when I was accused of being anti-Semitic because I say Israel is run by Right Wingers? Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #111
No, when you denigrate Jews for calling themselves "the Chosen People" Bonobo Jul 2014 #112
"Bashing them as whack jobs (like you did) for having this belief is indeed anti-semitic." Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #115
so sick of MFM008 Jul 2014 #90
I agree that "whiff" is the wrong term. LTX Jul 2014 #119
Link? WinkyDink Jul 2014 #48
There was no internet in 1948. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #63
So historical information began with the Internet? Sure, I could Google, but I didn't post WinkyDink Jul 2014 #114
No, you posted that post.... Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2014 #116
So it should not have been created. Threedifferentones Jul 2014 #52
The UN has no legal or moral authority to create a nation for one people cpwm17 Jul 2014 #23
IT has world authority to do so. eom MohRokTah Jul 2014 #29
It's another form of collective punishment; Truman agreed because PDJane Jul 2014 #35
What is this "Jewish Problem" you speak of? fujiyama Jul 2014 #123
Read history. PDJane Jul 2014 #126
I was just wondering what your context was for using the word "problem". fujiyama Jul 2014 #128
I am simply referring to the history, nothing vile. PDJane Jul 2014 #129
do the common israelis control their own government? tiny elvis Jul 2014 #20
All the past history aside stupidicus Jul 2014 #22
Exactly. What if the UN decided to take your house and give it to someone else? LuvNewcastle Jul 2014 #37
Nazi loot is still being returned to rightful owners. HooptieWagon Jul 2014 #42
we share that pov stupidicus Jul 2014 #45
Oh, FGS. Do you know nothing of what happens after wars? Lands are re-arranged. Ask the Germans. WinkyDink Jul 2014 #47
YES...and BTW, do you think that any of these folk who PCIntern Jul 2014 #62
Yes, I know what happens after wars, LuvNewcastle Jul 2014 #91
How is it that some Arabs were incorporated into Israel and some weren't? aint_no_life_nowhere Jul 2014 #25
I think you need to read some history. The FACTS are more complex, and less Arab-friendly, than WinkyDink Jul 2014 #46
Seems like the Israelis stole a lot of private/personal property brentspeak Jul 2014 #53
Never mind that the Jews were attacked in 1948. Calista241 Jul 2014 #55
It wasn't the Palestinian civilians who attacked the Jews in 1948 brentspeak Jul 2014 #56
+1000 !!!! orpupilofnature57 Jul 2014 #57
What about the genocide and ethic cleansing of the Native American people? workinclasszero Jul 2014 #58
The difference is the Geneva convention and international law, PDJane Jul 2014 #61
No one in this thread is suggesting all Jews be cleansed from Israel LittleBlue Jul 2014 #67
Hamas, ahem, makes that suggestion. tritsofme Jul 2014 #69
I should have made it more obvious that I was referring to LittleBlue Jul 2014 #71
This is a great thread with comments by very intelligent people. dfgrbac Jul 2014 #70
I couldn't disagree more. This is a disturbing thread with a lot of cali Jul 2014 #83
It's easy to blame this on Zionism but that's not a solution to this conflict fujiyama Jul 2014 #73
Well said. For me the crux of the problem is the delusion that the snagglepuss Jul 2014 #78
For many of the founders of the modern state of Israel fujiyama Jul 2014 #122
Suggesting that Jews should have had to live in a European "homeland" cali Jul 2014 #84
I agree, a European Jewish state wouldn't have been tenable fujiyama Jul 2014 #125
For a long time I have been libodem Jul 2014 #87
I just wish Aerows Jul 2014 #99
I know libodem Jul 2014 #120
Britain, through the Balfour Declaration BainsBane Jul 2014 #88
Kicked and recommended. Uncle Joe Jul 2014 #89
Thank you for the thanks Uncle Joe madokie Jul 2014 #101
one big problem sabbat hunter Jul 2014 #102
...and American lives are not perceived as more important to Americans? PCIntern Jul 2014 #121
The western powers did, elleng Jul 2014 #127
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