General Discussion

msanthrope

(37,549 posts)

39. The problem with your OP is that it rests on a meme that is fallacious....

Wed Sep 17, 2014, 09:07 AM

Sep 2014

namely that your "due process" rights are being violated. Your conflation of your rights under contract, and your civil rights of due process only make your claims murkier.

So would you kindly clarify just what you are claiming?

You have the California decision and the New York lawsuit. Please cite from those documents what you think is the violation of your rights.

Otherwise, I have to say that I find your OP based in ignorance of the law and civics....and I don't mean that as an insult, but what you arguing for is that contract rights trump the civil rights of students. I don't think that's what you mean to argue though, right?

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David Boies plans to strip teachers of due process rights state by state. [View all] madfloridian Sep 2014 OP

I'm reminded of the haunting song Jakes Progress Sep 2014 #1

OTOH my 7th grade science teacher told us the sun went around the earth Recursion Sep 2014 #2

Actually bad teachers CAN be fired. The admins must be ready, must document... madfloridian Sep 2014 #3

And in the 6 years it took the principal to exhaust her remediation options Recursion Sep 2014 #4

Mississippi has been a right-to-work state since 1960 Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #25

Not in the public schools (nt) Recursion Sep 2014 #28

The school unions are more like associations in RTW states. Not very strong. Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #33

Well, the union certainly kept that teacher from being fired for 6 years Recursion Sep 2014 #34

Sorry, didn't mean to upset you, just trying to provide context. Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #35

Mississippi was in a weird place Recursion Sep 2014 #37

It is an interesting pass at DU...the argument that a right at contract msanthrope Sep 2014 #40

Test scores are highest in the states with the strongest tenure laws and teachers unions. Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #41

Rich parents believe in those things Recursion Sep 2014 #43

Well. That seems rather a non-sequitor. Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #44

I call bs dsc Sep 2014 #98

And must do it repeatedly, over time, while spending resources to "help" the teacher. HuckleB Sep 2014 #62

In NY, it takes two Holt letters adigal Sep 2014 #78

I hope you don't mean that every teacher deserves their right to due process taken away BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #5

As I said, I think there's got to be a way to solve both problems Recursion Sep 2014 #6

There is BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #7

So let STEM people teach Recursion Sep 2014 #8

Agreed BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #9

Most MEd degrees now require content courses.... Sancho Sep 2014 #15

Is that true for primary and middle school as well BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #88

Actually, many MEd's for Elementary and Middle school degrees have LOTS of new stuff... Sancho Sep 2014 #91

I have two years, one month and 29 days left adigal Sep 2014 #80

Many schools have experience with this... Sancho Sep 2014 #20

So, you are implicitly saying teachers are bad. joeglow3 Sep 2014 #81

Um...no BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #84

Um...yes joeglow3 Sep 2014 #90

What I wrote is that the teaching profession can no longer attract certain fields that make more BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #93

I have always said we have plenty of bad teachers and need to pay more to attract greater talent joeglow3 Sep 2014 #104

It doesn't take 6 years, at least in PA wcast Sep 2014 #72

Well....that isn't the argument put forth by the Plaintiffs. If it was, I suspect msanthrope Sep 2014 #49

I'm trying to understand what you are saying. wcast Sep 2014 #73

I've been hearing these stories for a long time and I don't believe it.... Sancho Sep 2014 #13

Hi. You seem to be calling me a liar. Recursion Sep 2014 #14

I don't think you are a liar, but you may have limited experience with these things.... Sancho Sep 2014 #16

Fallacy of Misplaced Concreteness hatrack Sep 2014 #21

Well said madfloridian Sep 2014 #26

My concreteness is quite specific here: my principal should have been able to fire her Recursion Sep 2014 #32

Did you ever think the principal was the more incompetent one in this situation? MohRokTah Sep 2014 #55

I did, in fact Recursion Sep 2014 #56

I disbelieve. MohRokTah Sep 2014 #58

Wow, I don't agree with you much, but spot on here. HERVEPA Sep 2014 #59

The principal, with the help of the principal's supervisor. Still, it doesn't happen, quite often. HuckleB Sep 2014 #82

The content of your posts elsewhere on DU brentspeak Sep 2014 #45

Are any of those posts false? Recursion Sep 2014 #46

Actually, yes brentspeak Sep 2014 #48

Which one? Recursion Sep 2014 #50

Sure you would. HERVEPA Sep 2014 #51

So... you won't say? Recursion Sep 2014 #52

I've seen bad teachers get passed from school to school. HuckleB Sep 2014 #63

There's something "fishy" about this story. ladjf Sep 2014 #29

Well, sorry I'm blowing up your theory with my facts Recursion Sep 2014 #30

If the school system hired a science teacher who knew nothing about science, it is the school ladjf Sep 2014 #36

OK, so let's take the "smoke screen" out of it Recursion Sep 2014 #38

what we should be assessing teachers by is questionseverything Sep 2014 #53

That might work to a certain extent. However, in most cases, the ladjf Sep 2014 #66

Is there any other field where you would say not to look at the outcomes? Recursion Sep 2014 #67

I didn't say to not look at the outcomes. I just didn't take the time to discuss everything ladjf Sep 2014 #68

I like the notion of "tenure" in the sense of academic freedom Recursion Sep 2014 #69

Kicked and recommended! Enthusiast Sep 2014 #10

These folks remind me of anti-vaxers and climate change deniers. blackspade Sep 2014 #11

Same group of idiots, different cause. Initech Sep 2014 #96

K&R.... secondwind Sep 2014 #12

Boies and similar groups are attacking tenure for purely political and profit reasons.... Sancho Sep 2014 #17

++++++++ BrotherIvan Sep 2014 #60

Just to make the point that Madfloridian has documented (thanks)!!! Sancho Sep 2014 #83

This teacher says "thank you" for all your excellent posts. kwassa Sep 2014 #110

Thanks for this Important news and sharing your experience! nt adirondacker Sep 2014 #18

The whole reform scam is not about education Teamster Jeff Sep 2014 #19

Indeed, they want to replace teachers with untrained people who make $10.10 an hour BuelahWitch Sep 2014 #22

Boom. Starry Messenger Sep 2014 #23

+1 leftstreet Sep 2014 #61

Yet a number of our so called moderates are going right along with it. nt Guy Whitey Corngood Sep 2014 #65

David Boies? The guy who helped Gore not win Florida? Octafish Sep 2014 #24

Yeah, *that* "superlawyer"!1 & GORE apparently hasn't learned, hired him for the Al Jezeera suit n/t UTUSN Sep 2014 #27

The guy who killed Prop 8? David Boies guaranteed the civil rights of msanthrope Sep 2014 #31

Looks like someone got their Daily Caller marching orders today n/t brentspeak Sep 2014 #74

Let's not mince words here, brent. Are you alleging that I, an Obama campaign msanthrope Sep 2014 #75

Those are not accusations I made. n/t brentspeak Sep 2014 #76

You accused me of taking marching orders from that bowtied motherfucker, msanthrope Sep 2014 #79

doesn't Steve Leser work for FOX News? nt grasswire Sep 2014 #85

No--Steve has appeared as a guest, but has his own radio show in NYC. You'd msanthrope Sep 2014 #89

an unpaid guest? grasswire Sep 2014 #102

I've never asked him. Why not PM him? nt msanthrope Sep 2014 #107

you're citing him as a cred. grasswire Sep 2014 #108

So did Ted Olsen dsc Sep 2014 #109

The problem with your OP is that it rests on a meme that is fallacious.... msanthrope Sep 2014 #39

no the op is saying that questionseverything Sep 2014 #70

Actually...the OP did no such thing. The OP's example indicates msanthrope Sep 2014 #71

It was reported. I reported it against the wishes of my principal. madfloridian Sep 2014 #97

You claim that it was your tenure that gave you more confidence to do what the law required. msanthrope Sep 2014 #99

"Why would that change for teachers under the proposed lawsuit?" madfloridian Sep 2014 #100

No..REALLY. Here is where you PROVE, with a primary source, either from the CA msanthrope Sep 2014 #101

Way to fight the right fight for the right. Jakes Progress Sep 2014 #105

When did the civil rights of children become subordinate to a property right? msanthrope Sep 2014 #106

When did you last take a civics course and where? Jakes Progress Sep 2014 #111

Jake...on another thread you obviously were angry with me for reminding you msanthrope Sep 2014 #112

You might carry your grudges around. Jakes Progress Sep 2014 #114

Again Jake....not sure why you kicked this thread from last week after msanthrope Sep 2014 #115

I can speak of being a teacher without due process rights. no_hypocrisy Sep 2014 #42

Substitute teachers are very vulnerable. madfloridian Sep 2014 #94

Makes one wonder how much his legal heart was in it when arguing for a Gore victory...... WinkyDink Sep 2014 #47

We need someone to bring a lawsuit against billionaires and corporation for Larkspur Sep 2014 #54

I support this idea! Initech Sep 2014 #103

never did trust that guy. n/t librechik Sep 2014 #57

^^^ nt grasswire Sep 2014 #86

DURec leftstreet Sep 2014 #64

I have failed 12th graders and had superintendents and parents threaten me adigal Sep 2014 #77

Applause for that post. madfloridian Sep 2014 #87

More Koch addiction becoming evident. deminks Sep 2014 #92

Another useful idiot of the upper 1%. Fuck him. Initech Sep 2014 #95

If you doubt teachers need tenure to deal with parents, check out this thread! Sancho Sep 2014 #113