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Response to stevenleser (Reply #24)

Thu Oct 2, 2014, 03:16 PM

30. Pfui

 

Was Verizon, AT&T, and all the other phone carriers providing all their information to the Government? Yes, they were. There is the subpoena. Every single phone call. In direct violation of the 4th Amendment.

Amendment IV

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


So what crime were I and millions of others suspected of? What evidence of what investigation did they hope to collect?

It was a database, one of those things that are supposed to be eschewed.

So what was the lie there? For years people had theorized that this was going on, and when they attempted to post information that had been gleaned from other sources, they were denounced as Conspiracy Theory nuts. A violation of this very group is the posting of CT. Yet it was happening, and it was wrong.

So what else were we told? We were told that the NSA was spying with the GCHQ on foreign leaders. Interestingly enough, any one was worthy to be spied upon, inexplicably including the President of Germany. Because if there is anywhere that the head of a Government is going to be helping Terrorists or working against us, it's Germany?

So what else was a lie? Was it a lie that Snowden could listen in to the individual phone calls? The NSA says yes, but this is the same NSA that swore for years that none of this was going on. Perhaps we could consult with the one demonstrated liar in the story. General James Clapper. The one person who has demonstrably lied, is the head of the Government agency you want to believe when they say they aren't doing something.

Interesting isn't it? The one group that has been lying consistently, is the one you turn to in order to find truth. That would be like returning to the Priest who just molested you to find comfort in the psychological horror of being molested.

I don't know if everything Snowden said was true. I really don't. I don't know if the NSA is listening to every phone call, reading every single email, etc. I do know that they are listening to quite a bit, and reading quite a bit. I suspected, or perhaps believed before Snowden. But my concerns were cast aside until Snowden.

Let me ask you this. If Bush was still in the White House when all this broke, would you take the NSA's word that they aren't doing things? Of course not. You would be leading the crowd shouting that this was wrong and they're lying. You would expect them to prove it. Well, they are spying on us, and they're not supposed to. Again, my fidelity to the principle of Civil Rights demands that I speak out no matter who is violating them. If it's a White Cop conducting an illegal search of a black man, I'll say it's wrong. If anyone violates those rights I hold sacred then you can count on me to speak out.

I've defended the President when he was right. I've taken issue when I thought he was wrong. I oppose all Civil Rights Violations, no matter who is doing it. There is no excuse, no reason valid enough to violate those rights. We see what happens when those rights are eroded, and I'm fighting hard to make sure they don't erode any further, and I'm even hopeful that we'll see some rollback on some of those erosions.

All the excuses for these programs have been laid bare, and disproven. All of the assertions have been discredited. All that is left, is the one thing we won't do. We won't admit it's wrong, and bring an end to it.

Again, you're looking at the political agenda of Snowden, and Greenwald. I'm looking at the evidence that they have presented, and the reactions of the intelligence game players. If Snowden was nothing but a liar, why do those sources insist that he did irreparable harm?

There are four reasons that people turn "traitor". Money, Ideology, Conscience, and Ego. But here's the secret, it's never just one of those, it's always a combination. Oleg Penkovsky for example, Ideology and Conscience. Aldrich Ames. Money and Ego. He wanted cash, and he thought he was smart enough to get away with it.

So what drives Snowden? Money? Hard to spend any money when you're in hiding from a CIA hit squad, which will inevitably get you. Ideology? Sure, to some extent. Conscience? Sure, somewhat. Ego? Absolutely, but that is normal. You can't do work vital to the nation if you don't think you're pretty special.

But the end result, is that Snowden, and Greenwald, and many others provided us with information that we needed to drag these programs out of the shadows of CT into the light of informed discussion. That many of the Conspiracy Theories were proven correct are relevant, especially if the technology and technique that has been demonstrated can be applied to other applications. Then those CT's appear true, and probably are.

So in summation, we know the Government is doing things they're not supposed to. And we know that a majority of the people want them to stop. Now, if you want to keep up the no such agency talking points, you can. Nobody will believe you, because that has fallen into the category of CT.

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