General Discussion

Liberal Veteran

(22,239 posts)

62. Logistically...vote by mail works fine.

Mon Nov 3, 2014, 08:16 PM

Nov 2014

No rush to the polling place. No fighting bad weather. Nobody checking to make sure you have the GOP approved Voter ID. Nobody waiting in line for 3-4 hours to cast a ballot. Nobody assigning two poll workers to heavily Democratic polling stations while the Republican area of town has a quarter of the population and 5 times the poll workers. A two or three week window of voting (so if you happen to have a kidney stone or the car breaks down or a double-shift on voting day, it is unlikely to cause an issue.)

So what if a machine counts the ballots? They've only been doing that for about 50 years or so. If the machines break down, they have a staff of poll workers there ready to count the ballots by hand.

If you really want to play it safe, just have a stack of votes randomly audited against the machine by members of each party involved.

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The reality about "vote flipping" machines in NC and elsewhere [View all] Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 OP

I think Rove and Co realized the Ohio 2004 tactics can only steal so many votes and to randys1 Nov 2014 #1

Yep, they stole the election in 2004 RobertEarl Nov 2014 #9

I greatly resent the accusation of Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #22

Dont ever dis Kelvin about voting backwoodsbob Nov 2014 #27

+1 cali Nov 2014 #146

-2 RobertEarl Nov 2014 #172

Not sure the motive of the OP but today we talk about GOTV and then we watch for vote stealing randys1 Nov 2014 #30

Exactly right RobertEarl Nov 2014 #40

I am sorry, no Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #79

Eh? RobertEarl Nov 2014 #125

He's not saying,in any way, that computers can't be hacked. SharonAnn Nov 2014 #130

Again, no, I have NEVER said computers cannot be hacked Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #143

You have been a tireless advocate of fair elections Generic Other Nov 2014 #203

Thank you for the kind words Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #205

fearless repubs aspirant Nov 2014 #181

My point is to concetrate on GOTV Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #78

GOTV GOTV randys1 Nov 2014 #152

Why are you here? hunter Nov 2014 #89

Show up and vote Aerows Nov 2014 #33

VOTE VOTE VOTE, take someone to the polls, please! YES YES YES randys1 Nov 2014 #39

+1000 valerief Nov 2014 #77

Then it's really piss poor calibration. hobbit709 Nov 2014 #2

These machines are over ten-twelve years old Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #4

With all due respect watoos Nov 2014 #50

Again, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #70

Thank you for your efforts to clarify all of this. sybylla Nov 2014 #159

And folks seem to think that Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #161

I've worked on a touch screen from about 12 years ago Thav Nov 2014 #144

What I don't understand Mnpaul Nov 2014 #58

Please consider the logistics Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #72

Is ES&S still using MS Access on these machines? IDemo Nov 2014 #94

Last I looked, yes, though they Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #99

What if the audits weren't really random? FiveGoodMen Nov 2014 #176

I have been programming touchscreen operator interfaces for over 20 years and after initial.... yourout Nov 2014 #107

OK, sorry, but having played with these machines Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #112

Does the machine print the hardcopy where the user can see the printout of the vote? yourout Nov 2014 #113

If I can control what is on the display, I can control what is on the printer Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #114

Do they hand audit the Paper tape vs the electronic results? yourout Nov 2014 #116

The voter is supposed to compare what is on the screen with what is on the printer Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #119

This is the one factor that stands out to me IDemo Nov 2014 #117

Absolutely Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #121

Not meant as snark or opposition, but just curiousity... TinkerTot55 Nov 2014 #153

Last time I looked I saw Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #154

Yet another point I made and got slammed for. n/t Ms. Toad Nov 2014 #186

And if your clients used them only twice a year, how well do you think they would work? n/t eridani Nov 2014 #128

I have a touchscreen computer, also Warpy Nov 2014 #7

Actually scanning the news Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #20

?? One 2008 story of R to D switch, vs. several in each election of D to R switch. nt tblue37 Nov 2014 #28

Here is what I just pulled from the news Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #73

"claiming this evidence of fraud discourages people from voting at a time where we need every damn FSogol Nov 2014 #3

Well said. . . Journeyman Nov 2014 #5

Glad someone still remembers the Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #14

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2014 #6

"Edwards wanted a recount and we all know what was done to him" demwing Nov 2014 #8

Well, that one didn't last long.... panader0 Nov 2014 #11

Message auto-removed Name removed Nov 2014 #49

*Sigh* Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #12

True: Why flip 1 out of 20 votes or whatever, if you can simply... Beartracks Nov 2014 #25

Precisely Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #26

Glad to see you here backwoodsbob Nov 2014 #29

Thank you for the kind remark Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #76

Excellent - That Answered My Question Leith Nov 2014 #36

The funny thing was Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #80

Dang Leith Nov 2014 #111

machines make $$ for corporations. go back to hand paper and stop all this BS nt msongs Nov 2014 #10

You cannot count Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #16

My favorite would be for a special election for offices that wind up in DC SoCalDem Nov 2014 #131

Well, the problem is Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #141

I also read that 70% of votes in this election are on paper due to old machines which have fallen PeaceNikki Nov 2014 #13

Not completely accurate Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #17

I don't want to go back to paper I want to go back to people. zeemike Nov 2014 #47

I actually like our "everybody votes by mail" system. Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #51

And then you run it through a scanning computer to get the count. zeemike Nov 2014 #54

And we get a decent voter turnout. And there IS a paper trail. Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #56

People have optical scanners right in their head. zeemike Nov 2014 #60

Logistically...vote by mail works fine. Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #62

Well how about this. zeemike Nov 2014 #65

It would be almost as easy (and certainly faster) to have three different companies scanning. Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #69

Vote by mail is my preference Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #100

Sorry, but I must repectfully disagree Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #75

And I I must respectfully disagree zeemike Nov 2014 #96

I have certainly not said Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #98

Well I know it will not change...and no one will purpose an amendment to change it. zeemike Nov 2014 #105

You know what? Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #106

The problem is, the ballots are too complicated Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #68

People can't accurately count complex ballots over long periods of time eridani Nov 2014 #129

this is what we have in NENC ... littlewolf Nov 2014 #48

That system was great, unless the punchcard misfed Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #101

I agree ... Opscan is better, at the time that punch card system littlewolf Nov 2014 #127

The Florida system Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #142

It is accurate in that the votes are cast ON paper. PeaceNikki Nov 2014 #57

Absolutely, and there MUST Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #67

It's the law here in Wisconsin, too. PeaceNikki Nov 2014 #71

Paper with OpScan was found to be quite accurate Mnpaul Nov 2014 #61

What I meant was that it wasn't accurate Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #66

Ahhh. Someone who knows what they're talking about. A delicious rarity. SunSeeker Nov 2014 #15

You are welcome Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #18

I hope you don't. DeadLetterOffice Nov 2014 #21

Hell, you're one of the good guys! nc4bo Nov 2014 #63

This is the problem with politicians Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #64

K&R Go Vols Nov 2014 #19

Thank you. GeorgeGist Nov 2014 #23

A breath of logical, fresh air. Butterbean Nov 2014 #24

And really, if you were going to flip votes through software, would you make it visible? Liberal Veteran Nov 2014 #31

Precisely!!! Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #81

Not with a paper trail you wouldn't. yourout Nov 2014 #109

Again, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #122

Last question....are there audits to compare paper tape to electronic totals? yourout Nov 2014 #124

Yes, the law requires random audits that compare Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #145

Diebold changed its name in 2007 to Premier Election Solutions 99th_Monkey Nov 2014 #32

I don't recall one reported instance of "D"s flipping to "R"s. MEA CULPA! I MEANT: R to D!!!!!!!!!!! WinkyDink Nov 2014 #34

Easily found. onenote Nov 2014 #43

Google is your friend Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #82

Really? I never got a birthday card! WinkyDink Nov 2014 #132

Well, Google is rather busy Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #140

All points well taken here. However this is about our elections, no room for failure of any kind. YOHABLO Nov 2014 #35

We have limited resources Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #83

Somebody had to stop mstinamotorcity2 Nov 2014 #37

Thank you for the work you have done, Kelvin. Dont call me Shirley Nov 2014 #38

- Takket Nov 2014 #41

I really didn't mind all the effort fighting Diebold Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #84

So it is not fraud but a poorly calibrated touch screen. zeemike Nov 2014 #42

And it's happening to the Republicans too is the issue he's raising Savannahmann Nov 2014 #52

The more complicated the system is the more chances there are to game it. zeemike Nov 2014 #55

Absoutely true Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #87

Well for one thing it don't matter if they show it. zeemike Nov 2014 #93

Occam's Razor Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #86

And our politicians will say nothing and we will do nothing to change it... nc4bo Nov 2014 #59

When we were fighting against paperless ballots Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #92

Um... no Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #85

And never let incompetence be a cover for treachery. zeemike Nov 2014 #91

One more time Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #97

And you can always find a way to make a conspiracy not make sense. zeemike Nov 2014 #102

Actually everyone knows how Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #104

Yes I know...I knew a pro gambler zeemike Nov 2014 #110

complete truth aspirant Nov 2014 #184

The legal margin of victory is either a plurality Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #193

As an IT/repair person, I greatly admire your work and perseverance for accuracy in our.. BlueJazz Nov 2014 #44

I am just a jackleg database programmer, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #88

Who is Bev Harris? Helen Borg Nov 2014 #45

Gosh that is a question Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #90

Thanks. Helen Borg Nov 2014 #133

That, I have no idea Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #139

Oh, I had not realized that... Helen Borg Nov 2014 #147

Du rec and kick! n/t zappaman Nov 2014 #46

Kevin, this native North Carolinian wants to say a big thank you for all you've done. ladyVet Nov 2014 #53

Thank you Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #74

Absolutely agree with this. The widespread fears of vote-flipping are CTs at their worst. randome Nov 2014 #95

I wrote this back in 2006 Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #103

Great thread (and OP). At the risk of opening a can of worms or ripping off a scab, do KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #108

There were suspicious numbers Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #115

Good points all. People in Ohio waited in line for hours and hours to vote in some KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #118

I am wary of consiracies as explanations, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #120

Bravo! As long as we acknowledge that there are occasional conspiracies in history -- the KingCharlemagne Nov 2014 #123

Yes, they do exist Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #138

Yup. Proving intent is always very tricky... Helen Borg Nov 2014 #134

That you will get no argument from me Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #137

The obvious question-why did they skip 2008 and 2012? maced666 Nov 2014 #126

Well, you know Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #150

What are the facts at the links of "R" flipping to "D" provided by the OP, (SEE POST # 82)? WinkyDink Nov 2014 #135

And this, to me, as a computer tech Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #149

I've seen issues in Florida that are different than you describe, but may be manipulation. Sancho Nov 2014 #136

Let me take these one at a time Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #148

Thanks...hmmmm.... Sancho Nov 2014 #157

Thanks for the clarification Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #160

I agree we need better laws... Sancho Nov 2014 #162

But it can be done Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #163

Thanks for Duval Nov 2014 #151

I believe that only Guilford and Mecklenberg Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #155

Kelvin, I just found this Duval Nov 2014 #156

Thanks Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #158

If not for you and your wife Duval Nov 2014 #164

Here's the breakdown by county: marions ghost Nov 2014 #195

Thank you Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #196

It looks to me like they are phasing them out marions ghost Nov 2014 #201

They are not popular because they cause problems Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #204

The country lost big money on that swindle.... marions ghost Nov 2014 #207

When recalibration isn't the solution Fly by night Nov 2014 #165

And you will get no argument from me on that Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #166

I was 2 years later to this dance ... Fly by night Nov 2014 #167

You will never sell them on hand-counting Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #168

If I'm serious about voting reforms ...? Fly by night Nov 2014 #180

national expert? aspirant Nov 2014 #187

Go back and read what I said Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #188

That's like saying raising awareness about cancer discourages doctor visits. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #169

No, claiming all the doctors are secretly Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #170

How does it fail basic logic? True Blue Door Nov 2014 #171

Again, I have expained this about five times in this thread, but here goes number six Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #173

There is some logic to what you say. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #174

When I pursued this issue Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #175

Fair enough, but it won't do to be complacent about any angle. True Blue Door Nov 2014 #178

Certainly true, Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #179

The Testimony of a Programmer fredamae Nov 2014 #177

This would be the guy who claimed he rigged Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #190

I so agree that voter suppression is real and is growing. deminks Nov 2014 #182

True Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #191

I don't know. I would love to believe this, but I will never forget the 2004 election. Vinca Nov 2014 #183

If I had to make a stab at why we lost Ohio Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #189

I don't recall vote flipping on the actual voting machine as being the issue. Vinca Nov 2014 #197

Again, as long as there is no paper Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #198

It makes you wonder why the machines and software aren't allowed to be examined by the citizenry. Vinca Nov 2014 #199

Again, some states permit/require it Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #200

Thank you for saying what I got lambasted for saying a couple of weeks ago. Ms. Toad Nov 2014 #185

To those who insist there's still a real conspiracy here... brooklynite Nov 2014 #192

And a little actual evidence Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #194

I am against electronic counting for reasons not yet expressed. Half-Century Man Nov 2014 #202

I would have to see some empirical evidence of that Kelvin Mace Nov 2014 #206