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MFrohike

(1,980 posts)
74. This one did not start off well
Tue Nov 11, 2014, 08:09 PM
Nov 2014

"But one Western policy stands out as a phenomenal success, particularly when measured against the low expectations with which it began: The integration of Central Europe and the Baltic States into the European Union and NATO."

Nothing quite says completely disconnected from reality than to describe the EU as a phenomenal success. However, it actually got worse, which is pretty impressive with a start like that.

"Before joining the EU, each adopted laws on trade, judiciary, human rights. As a result, they became democracies. This was “democracy promotion” working as it never has before or since."

Just don't try to practice that democracy or Merkel will cut off the funding.

" But Poland and others persisted, precisely because they were already seeing signs of the Russian revanchism to come."

Naked assertion with no facts offered to support it. I find it interesting that this particular time period, 1992, is chosen to make a claim of Russian revanchism given the fateful events of the very next year.

"Russia also received Soviet nuclear weapons, some transferred from Ukraine in 1994 in exchange for Russian recognition of Ukraine's borders."

No mention that it was deemed wiser to put all the nukes in one place than have every ex-Soviet republic selling them to the highest bidder. It makes it sound like the US was doing Russia a favor when it benefited the US just as much to have those nukes under our client's control (Yeltsin).

"Presidents Clinton and Bush both treated their Russian counterparts as fellow “great power” leaders and invited them to join the G-8—although Russia, neither a large economy nor a democracy, did not qualify.

During this period, Russia, unlike Central Europe, never sought to transform itself along European lines. Instead, former KGB officers with a clearly expressed allegiance to the Soviet system took over the state in league with organized crime, seeking to prevent the formation of democratic institutions at home and to undermine them abroad."

That section is just dishonest. It's dishonest because it neglects to mention the rather large role the US played in creating a Russia of kleptocrats. To hear this author tell it, Yeltsin never illegally attacked his elected parliament with the army with the full support and backing of Bill Clinton. You'd think he was never a quasi-dictator of Russia, supported by organized crime which was as ruthless as any ever seen in the world. He did all this with American support. How many experts, how much money, how many photo ops? How about the fact that Vladimir Putin was Yeltsin's last, drunken gift to the world?

"Our mistake was not to humiliate Russia but to underrate Russia's revanchist, revisionist, disruptive potential. "

Actually, no, it was supporting a drunken dictator who reigned over a country with declining birth dates, accelerating death rates, rampant corruption, rampant disease, organized crime as the government, etc. The mistake wasn't not expanding NATO, as this author would have you believe, it was in ever supporting Yeltsin.



So, what's the point of the above? US policy toward Russia has been a succession of failures since 1989. Learn what we actually did and don't fucking do it again. This author would have us stare down Putin and I have no idea why. For Europe? Man, Merkel and the EU do exactly what Putin does, but they use the ECB and IMF instead of the army. For freedom? Whose? For Ukraine? The people of Ukraine or the plutocrats busy running it into the ground, with our full support? If you can't answer those questions honestly, you have no business dicking with Putin or anybody else because you're clearly not serious about the matter.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

kick nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #1
But, but, but...we always suck and Putin is always right! joeybee12 Nov 2014 #2
I particularly appreciate the mental gymnastics required to condemn Bush and Iraq and laud Putin stevenleser Nov 2014 #3
Yes, but the way the West treated Czarist Russia must be taken into account. Nuclear Unicorn Nov 2014 #6
Almost perfect. You don't have any nazi/neo-nazi comments/accusations against Ukraine stevenleser Nov 2014 #7
Jews!!!!! 7962 Nov 2014 #26
ZIONISTS!!!1!!one!!1!! nt AverageJoe90 Nov 2014 #117
It's simple: America is evil so anyone who opposes America is good. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #119
yeah right. zappaman Nov 2014 #4
Great article. Better pop some popcorn for when the Putinistas see this thread. FSogol Nov 2014 #5
The whole business of blaming the Ukrainian crisis on the West is such ridiculous malarky. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #8
" " " " "" " n/t MBS Nov 2014 #33
Rec tammywammy Nov 2014 #9
Victoria Nuland's Admits Washington Has Spent $5 Billion to "Subvert Ukraine"... jtuck004 Nov 2014 #10
Lots of money to be made from mineral extraction, for example. Octafish Nov 2014 #11
Victoria Nuland hasn't been in her role for most of this. Focus on her is a distraction. Nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #12
Yeah, just for the fomenting the revolution part. lol then we leave and point fingers. jtuck004 Nov 2014 #13
No. Russia has been abusing the west's kindness for 30+ years now. Thats the point. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #14
And that is exactly the point. Every inch the west has given, Putin takes a yard. 7962 Nov 2014 #28
It is a lie that the west fomented the uprising. geek tragedy Nov 2014 #24
Not quite, but thanks for spinning it that way. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #15
So you are saying she is a liar. Some help you are - jtuck004 Nov 2014 #18
"violent right-wing protesters" ... Yeah the streets of Kiev were full of them for months in winter. pampango Nov 2014 #21
Thank you for the notice that you are wasting my time... jtuck004 Nov 2014 #23
Your boosterism for corrupt, authoritarian regimes geek tragedy Nov 2014 #25
The idea that the US spent $5 billion to overthrow Yanukovych is a lie. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #27
cookies arely staircase Nov 2014 #102
What a colossal waste. Bye. n/t jtuck004 Nov 2014 #115
LOL imo that's like saying, "don't trust the devil." Rex Nov 2014 #16
What a load of bullshit. Paolo123 Nov 2014 #17
No, it's not bullshit. It's all backed up by facts. The US' policy towards Russia at least was stevenleser Nov 2014 #19
Sure it does... Paolo123 Nov 2014 #20
No it doesnt and the article proves why your Mexico reference doesnt make sense stevenleser Nov 2014 #22
LOL. you are delusional. over and out. Paolo123 Nov 2014 #31
Delusional? Its easy to research. Georgia and Ukraine have been after NATO membership for years stevenleser Nov 2014 #32
Those facts are totally irrelevant Paolo123 Nov 2014 #34
You would like them to be irrelevant because they destroy your narrative. stevenleser Nov 2014 #35
What narrative did they destroy? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #36
The narrative that the US/West fomented the revolution and "forced" Russia to invade stevenleser Nov 2014 #37
LOL Paolo123 Nov 2014 #38
Yes, it is funny that you are trying to spin it as something else. stevenleser Nov 2014 #39
How can something that has never happen be debunked by easily researched history? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #42
I wouldnt expect someone who makes crazy broad generalized attacks on groups to know stevenleser Nov 2014 #44
nice way to shift the discussion Paolo123 Nov 2014 #46
Not shifting. Just letting anyone following our discussion know where to go to find out more stevenleser Nov 2014 #47
Ok, then Paolo123 Nov 2014 #51
Whoopsies. GGJohn Nov 2014 #97
You can support your hypothesis with objective citations rather than simple and subjective guesswork LanternWaste Nov 2014 #40
What is there to cite? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #41
Hey... if you're simply guessing, no harm. LanternWaste Nov 2014 #43
What do you mean? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #45
No one cares what any DUer says that they cannot back up. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #48
So, nobody on DU every hypothesizes... Paolo123 Nov 2014 #50
You aren't hypothesizing. What you are doing is closer to push-polling. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #53
Are you ever going to answer that last question I had of you that you refuse to answer? nt Paolo123 Nov 2014 #55
You appear to not understand the differences between an hypothesis, a premise and a conclusion. LanternWaste Nov 2014 #54
So, Paolo123 Nov 2014 #57
There was no coup in Ukraine. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #59
No Coup in Ukraine? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #61
Okay, how exactly was Yanukovych forcibly removed then? nt Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #62
Ok so we are arguing definitions... Paolo123 Nov 2014 #64
He took three whole days to pack up his most valuable possessions. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #65
OK, so, Paolo123 Nov 2014 #66
Three days to pack up frivilous valuables before walking to his helicopter? No, not a coup. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #78
correct, no coup Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #63
and, Paolo123 Nov 2014 #67
The parts that were allowed Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #68
My interpretation is different: Paolo123 Nov 2014 #71
Too bad that is not what they agreed to Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #76
So, how long should this be in effect? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #80
So you have no response Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #92
so: Paolo123 Nov 2014 #94
No, the armed pro-Russian separatists with the guns didn't want to be a part of Ukraine anymore. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #79
So, Paolo123 Nov 2014 #81
That wouldn't undo Russia's unprovoked war of aggression stevenleser Nov 2014 #82
and the UN needs to monitor the border nt Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #93
That person has been unceremoniously shown the door... stevenleser Nov 2014 #96
You seem to be under the impression I am taking one side or the other. LanternWaste Nov 2014 #49
Not at all. Paolo123 Nov 2014 #52
+ trillions nationalize the fed Nov 2014 #73
You are agreeing with a now banned troll. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #95
Knowing this poster... zappaman Nov 2014 #98
Birds of a feather...nt SidDithers Nov 2014 #124
Yeah, that post you're "+trillion" with is a troll.. wonder what he did to deserve such an epitaph? Cha Nov 2014 #121
LOL, typical Hate-America-Firster. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #120
Boom! That's precisely it LittleBlue Nov 2014 #75
K&R for information on the West and Russia. freshwest Nov 2014 #29
kick for truth... Blue_Tires Nov 2014 #30
I'm still trying to figure out the whole Sikorski-Applebaum angle jakeXT Nov 2014 #56
She has a lot of facts in her article. Going after her personally doesnt seem relevant. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #58
She left out the missile shield for example. She could have called the Russians delusional, but she jakeXT Nov 2014 #60
Poland is currently in the process of selecting a missile defense system of their own. n/t tammywammy Nov 2014 #69
A bonus system jakeXT Nov 2014 #70
Right, it's their own system. n/t tammywammy Nov 2014 #72
This one did not start off well MFrohike Nov 2014 #74
Neocon whose husband makes cannibal jokes about Obama. Karmadillo Nov 2014 #77
Ad hominems won't work, there are lots of facts in the article. Nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #83
But there are facts in my post. She's a neocon & her husband makes cannibal jokes Karmadillo Nov 2014 #84
As DUs resident RT/parry propagandist pusher... zappaman Nov 2014 #85
I would imagine something far more intelligent than anything you Karmadillo Nov 2014 #89
Can't wait for you to post it!!! zappaman Nov 2014 #90
There are no facts in your post, just ad hominem attacks. Nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #87
She's not a neocon? Her husband doesn't make cannibal jokes about Karmadillo Nov 2014 #88
Those are as hominem attacks, not facts. Nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #91
Facts. Both true statements. You can choose your neocon articles to post, and Karmadillo Nov 2014 #99
Ad hominem attacks meant to distract from the facts at hand are not 'facts' stevenleser Nov 2014 #100
Continuing notice by neocon devotee stevenleser. Yikes! I'm Karmadillo Nov 2014 #101
Nope, not by me, by all of DU. Everyone is noticing your authoritarianism nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #103
P.s. thanks for kicking my OP nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #104
Neocons making accusations of authoritarianism. Wonders Karmadillo Nov 2014 #105
Nope, you're the neocon. That's what Putin is and you are supporting him. All neocons love him. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #106
When did Cleverbot get a DU membership? Karmadillo Nov 2014 #108
When did you decide selling out LGBT folks was OK? nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #112
Here you go, you are on the same side as Patrick Buchanan. He loves Putin as much as you do... stevenleser Nov 2014 #107
When you smear you simply reveal Karmadillo Nov 2014 #109
Part of Buchanan's reasoning is Putin hates LGBT as much as Social Conservatives here. And he is stevenleser Nov 2014 #111
The Atlantic: Vladimir Putin, Russian Neocon stevenleser Nov 2014 #110
Anne & her cannibal jokes husband would be proud Karmadillo Nov 2014 #113
Again, thank you for kicking my OP so everyone can see Anne's article stevenleser Nov 2014 #114
Yup. zappaman Nov 2014 #116
The article does have good facts despite its whiny tone. nilesobek Nov 2014 #86
I'm getting sick of the Hate-America-Firsters' love-fest for that Fascist POS. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #118
Thank you, Odin! Cha Nov 2014 #122
That crap is why I can't stand Maoists despite being a Marxist, myself. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #123
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