General Discussion

Paolo123

(297 posts)

94. so:

Wed Nov 12, 2014, 11:02 AM

Nov 2014

>They should peaceably petition to leave under the laws and constitution of the sovereign state of Ukraine.

People have the right to self-government. Period. If you need the sovereign to agree then, well, we would still be a part of england.

>If they feel that bad they can also just move to Russia if they want to be there so bad.

Why should they have to? Why don't they have the right to choose their own form of government?

>Should Chechnya been allowed to leave Russia?

Yes of course

>Were you for or against Russia then?

Against

>How about Dagastan, should they be allowed to separate from Russia?

Yes

>Russia should not invade a sovereign state and annex a portion of that country breaking agreements and international laws.

OK, but they felt they had to in order to prevent NATO bases and troops in these critical areas.

>There was not an issue in the east until Russia started putting the little green men in to foment trouble.

I disagree. Ukraine is a failed state shithoe there the standard of living is way below Russia. The people of historically russian areas with historically russian heritage would rather be a part of Russia (it appears.. I am in favor of a UN sponosred vote). Why do you have a problem with that?

>Now they are supplying some of the latest military hardware and Russian military personnel to assist the pro-Russian rebels that were getting their ass handed to them until about two months ago.

OK, and Ukraine is shelling civillians because they want to choose their own form of government.

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Slate: Don�t Accept Putin�s Version of History. The West didn�t provoke Russia... [View all] stevenleser Nov 2014 OP

kick nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #1

But, but, but...we always suck and Putin is always right! joeybee12 Nov 2014 #2

I particularly appreciate the mental gymnastics required to condemn Bush and Iraq and laud Putin stevenleser Nov 2014 #3

Yes, but the way the West treated Czarist Russia must be taken into account. Nuclear Unicorn Nov 2014 #6

Almost perfect. You don't have any nazi/neo-nazi comments/accusations against Ukraine stevenleser Nov 2014 #7

Jews!!!!! 7962 Nov 2014 #26

ZIONISTS!!!1!!one!!1!! nt AverageJoe90 Nov 2014 #117

It's simple: America is evil so anyone who opposes America is good. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #119

yeah right. zappaman Nov 2014 #4

Great article. Better pop some popcorn for when the Putinistas see this thread. FSogol Nov 2014 #5

The whole business of blaming the Ukrainian crisis on the West is such ridiculous malarky. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #8

" " " " "" " n/t MBS Nov 2014 #33

Rec tammywammy Nov 2014 #9

Victoria Nuland's Admits Washington Has Spent $5 Billion to "Subvert Ukraine"... jtuck004 Nov 2014 #10

Lots of money to be made from mineral extraction, for example. Octafish Nov 2014 #11

Victoria Nuland hasn't been in her role for most of this. Focus on her is a distraction. Nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #12

Yeah, just for the fomenting the revolution part. lol then we leave and point fingers. jtuck004 Nov 2014 #13

No. Russia has been abusing the west's kindness for 30+ years now. Thats the point. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #14

And that is exactly the point. Every inch the west has given, Putin takes a yard. 7962 Nov 2014 #28

It is a lie that the west fomented the uprising. geek tragedy Nov 2014 #24

Not quite, but thanks for spinning it that way. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #15

So you are saying she is a liar. Some help you are - jtuck004 Nov 2014 #18

"violent right-wing protesters" ... Yeah the streets of Kiev were full of them for months in winter. pampango Nov 2014 #21

Thank you for the notice that you are wasting my time... jtuck004 Nov 2014 #23

Your boosterism for corrupt, authoritarian regimes geek tragedy Nov 2014 #25

The idea that the US spent $5 billion to overthrow Yanukovych is a lie. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #27

cookies arely staircase Nov 2014 #102

What a colossal waste. Bye. n/t jtuck004 Nov 2014 #115

LOL imo that's like saying, "don't trust the devil." Rex Nov 2014 #16

What a load of bullshit. Paolo123 Nov 2014 #17

No, it's not bullshit. It's all backed up by facts. The US' policy towards Russia at least was stevenleser Nov 2014 #19

Sure it does... Paolo123 Nov 2014 #20

No it doesnt and the article proves why your Mexico reference doesnt make sense stevenleser Nov 2014 #22

LOL. you are delusional. over and out. Paolo123 Nov 2014 #31

Delusional? Its easy to research. Georgia and Ukraine have been after NATO membership for years stevenleser Nov 2014 #32

Those facts are totally irrelevant Paolo123 Nov 2014 #34

You would like them to be irrelevant because they destroy your narrative. stevenleser Nov 2014 #35

What narrative did they destroy? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #36

The narrative that the US/West fomented the revolution and "forced" Russia to invade stevenleser Nov 2014 #37

LOL Paolo123 Nov 2014 #38

Yes, it is funny that you are trying to spin it as something else. stevenleser Nov 2014 #39

How can something that has never happen be debunked by easily researched history? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #42

I wouldnt expect someone who makes crazy broad generalized attacks on groups to know stevenleser Nov 2014 #44

nice way to shift the discussion Paolo123 Nov 2014 #46

Not shifting. Just letting anyone following our discussion know where to go to find out more stevenleser Nov 2014 #47

Ok, then Paolo123 Nov 2014 #51

Whoopsies. GGJohn Nov 2014 #97

You can support your hypothesis with objective citations rather than simple and subjective guesswork LanternWaste Nov 2014 #40

What is there to cite? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #41

Hey... if you're simply guessing, no harm. LanternWaste Nov 2014 #43

What do you mean? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #45

No one cares what any DUer says that they cannot back up. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #48

So, nobody on DU every hypothesizes... Paolo123 Nov 2014 #50

You aren't hypothesizing. What you are doing is closer to push-polling. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #53

Are you ever going to answer that last question I had of you that you refuse to answer? nt Paolo123 Nov 2014 #55

You appear to not understand the differences between an hypothesis, a premise and a conclusion. LanternWaste Nov 2014 #54

So, Paolo123 Nov 2014 #57

There was no coup in Ukraine. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #59

No Coup in Ukraine? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #61

Okay, how exactly was Yanukovych forcibly removed then? nt Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #62

Ok so we are arguing definitions... Paolo123 Nov 2014 #64

He took three whole days to pack up his most valuable possessions. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #65

OK, so, Paolo123 Nov 2014 #66

Three days to pack up frivilous valuables before walking to his helicopter? No, not a coup. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #78

correct, no coup Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #63

and, Paolo123 Nov 2014 #67

The parts that were allowed Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #68

My interpretation is different: Paolo123 Nov 2014 #71

Too bad that is not what they agreed to Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #76

So, how long should this be in effect? Paolo123 Nov 2014 #80

So you have no response Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #92

so: Paolo123 Nov 2014 #94

No, the armed pro-Russian separatists with the guns didn't want to be a part of Ukraine anymore. Tommy_Carcetti Nov 2014 #79

So, Paolo123 Nov 2014 #81

That wouldn't undo Russia's unprovoked war of aggression stevenleser Nov 2014 #82

and the UN needs to monitor the border nt Duckhunter935 Nov 2014 #93

That person has been unceremoniously shown the door... stevenleser Nov 2014 #96

You seem to be under the impression I am taking one side or the other. LanternWaste Nov 2014 #49

Not at all. Paolo123 Nov 2014 #52

+ trillions nationalize the fed Nov 2014 #73

You are agreeing with a now banned troll. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #95

Knowing this poster... zappaman Nov 2014 #98

Birds of a feather...nt SidDithers Nov 2014 #124

Yeah, that post you're "+trillion" with is a troll.. wonder what he did to deserve such an epitaph? Cha Nov 2014 #121

LOL, typical Hate-America-Firster. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #120

Boom! That's precisely it LittleBlue Nov 2014 #75

K&R for information on the West and Russia. freshwest Nov 2014 #29

kick for truth... Blue_Tires Nov 2014 #30

I'm still trying to figure out the whole Sikorski-Applebaum angle jakeXT Nov 2014 #56

She has a lot of facts in her article. Going after her personally doesnt seem relevant. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #58

She left out the missile shield for example. She could have called the Russians delusional, but she jakeXT Nov 2014 #60

Poland is currently in the process of selecting a missile defense system of their own. n/t tammywammy Nov 2014 #69

A bonus system jakeXT Nov 2014 #70

Right, it's their own system. n/t tammywammy Nov 2014 #72

This one did not start off well MFrohike Nov 2014 #74

Neocon whose husband makes cannibal jokes about Obama. Karmadillo Nov 2014 #77

Ad hominems won't work, there are lots of facts in the article. Nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #83

But there are facts in my post. She's a neocon & her husband makes cannibal jokes Karmadillo Nov 2014 #84

As DUs resident RT/parry propagandist pusher... zappaman Nov 2014 #85

I would imagine something far more intelligent than anything you Karmadillo Nov 2014 #89

Can't wait for you to post it!!! zappaman Nov 2014 #90

There are no facts in your post, just ad hominem attacks. Nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #87

She's not a neocon? Her husband doesn't make cannibal jokes about Karmadillo Nov 2014 #88

Those are as hominem attacks, not facts. Nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #91

Facts. Both true statements. You can choose your neocon articles to post, and Karmadillo Nov 2014 #99

Ad hominem attacks meant to distract from the facts at hand are not 'facts' stevenleser Nov 2014 #100

Continuing notice by neocon devotee stevenleser. Yikes! I'm Karmadillo Nov 2014 #101

Nope, not by me, by all of DU. Everyone is noticing your authoritarianism nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #103

P.s. thanks for kicking my OP nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #104

Neocons making accusations of authoritarianism. Wonders Karmadillo Nov 2014 #105

Nope, you're the neocon. That's what Putin is and you are supporting him. All neocons love him. nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #106

When did Cleverbot get a DU membership? Karmadillo Nov 2014 #108

When did you decide selling out LGBT folks was OK? nt stevenleser Nov 2014 #112

Here you go, you are on the same side as Patrick Buchanan. He loves Putin as much as you do... stevenleser Nov 2014 #107

When you smear you simply reveal Karmadillo Nov 2014 #109

Part of Buchanan's reasoning is Putin hates LGBT as much as Social Conservatives here. And he is stevenleser Nov 2014 #111

The Atlantic: Vladimir Putin, Russian Neocon stevenleser Nov 2014 #110

Anne & her cannibal jokes husband would be proud Karmadillo Nov 2014 #113

Again, thank you for kicking my OP so everyone can see Anne's article stevenleser Nov 2014 #114

Yup. zappaman Nov 2014 #116

The article does have good facts despite its whiny tone. nilesobek Nov 2014 #86

I'm getting sick of the Hate-America-Firsters' love-fest for that Fascist POS. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #118

Thank you, Odin! Cha Nov 2014 #122

That crap is why I can't stand Maoists despite being a Marxist, myself. Odin2005 Nov 2014 #123