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0rganism

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16. i think this raises a larger question

Thu Dec 11, 2014, 03:30 PM

Dec 2014

what exactly is a "patriot"? dictionary.com gives 3 definitions, the third of which refers to a missile and i'll omit that here:
1. a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion.
2. a person who regards himself or herself as a defender, especially of individual rights, against presumed interference by the federal government.

meaning #2 doesn't really apply here either, since we're talking about the actions of people on behalf of the government which employed them. So we're left with #1: "a person who loves, supports, and defends his or her country and its interests with devotion"

Could one engage in torture or various war crimes in the name of national defense and still be considered a "patriot" by this definition? i think so.
Are the two really mutually exclusive? i'm inclined to say no.
Does being patriotic or acting patriotically in any way excuse acting as a torturer? obviously not. there is no excuse for torture.

Ultimately, i think we need to reconsider the assumption that a patriot is above reproach.

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Anyone who claims Obama called the torturers "patriots"... [View all] berni_mccoy Dec 2014 OP

Thank you shenmue Dec 2014 #1

Do you feel the torturers and their controllers should be prosecuted? grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #48

do you prefer Pepsi over Coke? LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #101

For rectal hydration? grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #171

Thread win. I salute you Autumn Dec 2014 #174

DUZY..nt Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #191

And there we go Scootaloo Dec 2014 #203

hee hee marym625 Dec 2014 #281

so now torture is an opportunity for a ha ha funny? LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #304

Torture is a crime under US Domestic, US Military, and International Law. DMay Dec 2014 #135

but they were scared patriots, hello! elehhhhna Dec 2014 #227

Exactly. I wonder if the Hague would accept that as a defense. nm rhett o rick Dec 2014 #231

Maybe if they promise never to do it again marym625 Dec 2014 #282

Well that'd leave out little Dick Cheney. nm rhett o rick Dec 2014 #305

Ha! :) n/t marym625 Dec 2014 #307

. darkangel218 Dec 2014 #341

Some of them were treestar Dec 2014 #156

But none of the architects of state psychopathy. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #248

Not Obama hater DMay Dec 2014 #131

Okay shenmue Dec 2014 #138

Why don't you address the issue here in lieu of calling people names? rhett o rick Dec 2014 #158

Because the newbie called shenmue an (R) and not the other way around. See? Hekate Dec 2014 #214

I will be glad to. If you look at post #2 what do you see? rhett o rick Dec 2014 #235

You called others obama-haters. prayin4rain Dec 2014 #159

+1. Don't expect a reply. SammyWinstonJack Dec 2014 #166

Yes shenmue Dec 2014 #173

It's more offensive simply because you think it's in the TOS? prayin4rain Dec 2014 #185

wow youre more butthurt about du tos than torture? good to know. elehhhhna Dec 2014 #228

nailed it marym625 Dec 2014 #284

I missed something have the war criminals been arrested yet? Or are they out and about on Fox News? Katashi_itto Dec 2014 #2

Apparently Bobbie Jo Dec 2014 #14

lofl!!! thank you... that made my day... words matter no doubt uponit7771 Dec 2014 #3

Do you feel the torturers and their controllers should be prosecuted? grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #49

No, we should give them all a pat on the back :rolleyes: Come on, we know they should be proesecuted uponit7771 Dec 2014 #104

Sh hey ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #4

... BlueCaliDem Dec 2014 #29

One persons "blame" is another "accountability"...nt Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #202

And when that "accountability" is based ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #206

So lots of the torturers were patriots AgingAmerican Dec 2014 #5

Sorry Wrong Place n/t sharp_stick Dec 2014 #20

Re-read the OP brush Dec 2014 #106

and the One whistleblower went to jail. elehhhhna Dec 2014 #145

Still no blaming the Bush cabal I see. brush Dec 2014 #149

You are correct. The Pres is still not blaming the Bush Admin. He should do that rhett o rick Dec 2014 #154

Much as I hate to say it . . . brush Dec 2014 #196

I wish another country would do that. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #201

Maybe Bush and Cheney will slip up . . . brush Dec 2014 #223

Or maybe someone will kidnap them and take them to the Netherlands dflprincess Dec 2014 #251

Me too. Woohoo! nt brush Dec 2014 #256

+100000000 elehhhhna Dec 2014 #224

You made this up Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #195

That was in the OP at the very bottom. nt brush Dec 2014 #225

bullshit. reread it. elehhhhna Dec 2014 #226

This is at the bottom of the OP brush Dec 2014 #246

People don't understand Aerows Dec 2014 #269

What does this mean? brush Dec 2014 #290

Not even close, and kind of pathetic. -eom gcomeau Dec 2014 #111

This message was self-deleted by its author 1000words Dec 2014 #6

Sometimes the truth is not enough for some. They must create their own fucked up realities berni_mccoy Dec 2014 #8

Yeah, that's true. HappyMe Dec 2014 #21

Yes ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #32

I realize not everyone is going to agree HappyMe Dec 2014 #38

Does he think they are criminals? grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #51

I would imagine so. HappyMe Dec 2014 #53

Then why doesn't he prosecute??? grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #68

Has he said he isn't going to prosecute??? HappyMe Dec 2014 #73

And you think the President first saw this report when we did, 48 hours ago? eomer Dec 2014 #94

What's your point? HappyMe Dec 2014 #98

What was yours? eomer Dec 2014 #113

A case like this would take a long damn time to prepare. HappyMe Dec 2014 #115

Since you asked, here's a timeline of Nuremberg. eomer Dec 2014 #140

heh. SammyWinstonJack Dec 2014 #169

Oh come on LiberalLovinLug Dec 2014 #198

When did he become attorney general of the United States? MADem Dec 2014 #132

Do you have a mirror at home? n/t PoliticAverse Dec 2014 #148

Exactly. The facts don't matter.. twisting it like a gd pretzel gets more recs. Cha Dec 2014 #186

Just like you are! LOL! nt Logical Dec 2014 #327

He also said this: Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2014 #7

How is that relevant to people here taking his words out of context berni_mccoy Dec 2014 #11

Considering his statement above that "these folks were under a lot of pressure and real patriots" Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2014 #22

Who do you think he was leaving out ... NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #270

I'll put it straight to you brush Dec 2014 #291

Indeed....now name the prosecution you would start. The official, the victim, and the crime. nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #13

I'm not in the position to prosecute anyone. But, Obama, has some "folks" in the DOJ who are. Tierra_y_Libertad Dec 2014 #19

Oh..I know you can't prosecute, but you seem all eager, I'd thought you'd at least come up msanthrope Dec 2014 #33

"Them" dammit ... just "Them" for that! n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #35

What is an accessory to a crime? Is torture a crime? Autumn Dec 2014 #52

Hey...I'm asking for specifics. I agree that torture should be prosecuted. But I also know that msanthrope Dec 2014 #67

Yes I understand . But I don't think that when Obama is telling the nation about torture Autumn Dec 2014 #102

I have no doubt that President Obama's wordplay there stemmed from the subject matter.... msanthrope Dec 2014 #176

Are you one of the ones saying that the president called torturers patriots? brush Dec 2014 #292

The in context quote is posted just about everywhere, you can do a Autumn Dec 2014 #306

You mean this? brush Dec 2014 #308

You know this is the quote that really disgusted me. Autumn Dec 2014 #309

Of course we all want them charged brush Dec 2014 #312

Let's stop with the hyperbole, on both sides. Autumn Dec 2014 #314

Bush and Cheney. Paul Bremer. George Tenet. Victims: grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #64

One....the "definitions" aren't what you prosecute under..... msanthrope Dec 2014 #75

When a mob boss orders a hit, it doesn't matter that he himself didn't shoot the guy. nt Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #78

Exactly....so we aren't talking about prosecuting single acts of torture, or single msanthrope Dec 2014 #81

I'd offer the little guys deals, maybe even commuted sentences to rat out the big fish. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #83

That's mob business...this is more like Nazi business...there is paperwork, somewhere on all of msanthrope Dec 2014 #90

I'm sure they did enough to have themselves shielded treestar Dec 2014 #160

The same reason Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #181

A hitman shoots someone in the head treestar Dec 2014 #252

Each person harmed is a single count brought against all those in the chain of command. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #84

Exactly! (nt) stone space Dec 2014 #91

Not how it works...you have to show knowledge. nt msanthrope Dec 2014 #92

The have said they knew. On the TV. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #215

Charles Manson never touched his victims either, did he? Seriously, your feel good about defending grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #82

I'm not defending...I'm asking you how to get the people at the top. msanthrope Dec 2014 #85

+1. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #77

Petreaus Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #210

Those words were just used to make the sale. You know how that works. Autumn Dec 2014 #26

President Obama explains exactly who he is referring to" okaawhatever Dec 2014 #89

So who was criticizing the law enforcement and national security teams that he felt the need to to Autumn Dec 2014 #109

Bush's national security team. Remember them? Rumsfeld, Rice there's a couple. Autumn Dec 2014 #125

And the day is over ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #34

They will never be in jail. 840high Dec 2014 #55

Okay ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #76

Filthy phuck Cheney is daring Obama to prosecute by taking full credit for his fucking crimes. NoJusticeNoPeace Dec 2014 #183

i doubt it shanti Dec 2014 #207

But he has NOT been naming names of who knew. n/t 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #211

But he said that in the past dflprincess Dec 2014 #254

Thank you and let's add that the claim of child molestation is completely unfounded. The okaawhatever Dec 2014 #9

I understand the narrow focus of the report excludes this material & I won't be delving into it, but proverbialwisdom Dec 2014 #27

And neither of those stories corroborates the claim that a child was sodomized in front of their okaawhatever Dec 2014 #31

There are multiple reports about programs at multiple agencies. Sy Hersh was referring to Abu Ghraib proverbialwisdom Dec 2014 #119

I'm not debating. I'm not the one who offered up an unsubstantiated and uncorroborated rumor about okaawhatever Dec 2014 #126

Uh, you originated the subject on this thread & rebutted it. I added The Guardian/BBC documentary. proverbialwisdom Dec 2014 #139

All I have to do is look at the photos of the Abu Ghraib nilesobek Dec 2014 #268

I think alerts, linked to this OP need to go out on every single post that claims msanthrope Dec 2014 #10

Er, Msanthrope Aerows Dec 2014 #263

How stupid. What was Obama saying we shouldn't be too sanctimonious about? morningfog Dec 2014 #333

Are you kidding me? Marr Dec 2014 #12

For you... berni_mccoy Dec 2014 #15

Who do you think the phrase "those folks" referred to? Marr Dec 2014 #17

Anybody who didn't know about the torture must be the "those folks" referred to Autumn Dec 2014 #40

"3-dimensional grammar rules" Aerows Dec 2014 #259

His reference to "those folks" was quite clear. NanceGreggs Dec 2014 #271

About "folks," OnyxCollie Dec 2014 #285

Did I just step into another dimension? Aerows Dec 2014 #260

i think she is... Doctor_J Dec 2014 #18

i think this raises a larger question 0rganism Dec 2014 #16

Good point. deurbano Dec 2014 #87

Why did he mention people feeling 'sanctimonious'? muriel_volestrangler Dec 2014 #23

Could that be because no pone is distinguishing ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #39

That doesn't seem to make any sense to me muriel_volestrangler Dec 2014 #62

Of course it doesn't make sense to you you are thinking rationally. n/t PoliticAverse Dec 2014 #130

He is so obviously talking about the entire thing treestar Dec 2014 #161

So who is the sanctimony about? muriel_volestrangler Dec 2014 #192

It is clear he is defending non-torturing personnel treestar Dec 2014 #249

Speaking of torture, that logic is on the rack, inside an iron maiden, with "the pear" up its ass. TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #343

They might treestar Dec 2014 #345

They might what? TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #347

The entire nation? "We" as a nation were wrong?? Uh, I don't think so. Demit Dec 2014 #199

We as a nation are responsible treestar Dec 2014 #250

That is such an empty concept, that "we as a nation" are responsible. Demit Dec 2014 #262

You're a voter and an American treestar Dec 2014 #300

Nope. I reject that. It's an attempt to diffuse the blame. Demit Dec 2014 #324

Parsed correctly Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #200

Exactly. Luminous Animal Dec 2014 #229

Yes, the context of the statement is important. Maedhros Dec 2014 #123

DU rec... SidDithers Dec 2014 #24

Thanks Berni madokie Dec 2014 #25

+ 1000. BlueCaliDem Dec 2014 #28

Weasel words, beneath contempt. We didn't do things 'contrary to our KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #30

This ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #41

U.S. Statutes 18 USC 2340 and 2340A govern here. One doesn't need to KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #47

Not to get into the weeds ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #66

Not following your drift here. Did agents of the U.S. government violate U.S. KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #72

What I think and what I can prove ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #79

Well, actually, attorneys are in luck there b/c the U.N. Convention Against Torture (signed KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #86

Here's the problem ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #112

Well, here's a reasonable test that might even make the grade with attorneys. Did agents KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #144

I have no problem with your tone ... 1StrongBlackMan Dec 2014 #194

Well, brace yourself, because Obama described it as torture right there. /nt Marr Dec 2014 #117

I'll tell ya what's "weasel words" .. pasting together and saying the President said Cha Dec 2014 #184

the subject was torture, was it not? G_j Dec 2014 #36

Wow... SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #37

Another piece of shit used car salesman checking in Autumn Dec 2014 #42

Piece of shit here!!! Proud of it! Torture is abhorrent and must never be defended. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #44

Amen! markpkessinger Dec 2014 #63

Guess I am too. What you said. SammyWinstonJack Dec 2014 #179

I'm good company. 840high Dec 2014 #56

At least we "all know it!" SomethingFishy Dec 2014 #100

<--- POS used car salesman checking in Aerows Dec 2014 #267

Anyone who defends torture is a "fucking piece of shit used car salesmen". This means those who fail grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #43

That's the bottom line Oilwellian Dec 2014 #155

So what he said wasn't what he meant. Iggo Dec 2014 #45

They want us to believe he has a bad habit of saying what he doesn't mean. Autumn Dec 2014 #50

Yes, that's gotta be it! RufusTFirefly Dec 2014 #96

No he meant exactly what he said. Some people are misrepresenting that. He was referring okaawhatever Dec 2014 #93

In the context of the pending torture report, Obama is clearly referring to the subset Maedhros Dec 2014 #127

If he made the comment about law enforcement and security teams directly after the comment about okaawhatever Dec 2014 #136

I think you're making too much of a stretch simply to justify the President's words. Maedhros Dec 2014 #152

LOL! Politicalboi Dec 2014 #46

Not to get to deep into CT, but I was always struck that, with several planes KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #70

I feel the same and said as much yesterday. Control-Z Dec 2014 #54

Apparently, David Addington was that 'special kind of filth'. And I think John Yoo said KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #59

I agree 100%. Control-Z Dec 2014 #71

Alert Results: 2-5 to leave... stevenleser Dec 2014 #57

I was on that jury and voted to leave Cali_Democrat Dec 2014 #58

Oh? Is it SAne DAy at DU... LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #128

HAHA.. their sensititive little skins can't handle some truth from Bernie.. Cha Dec 2014 #188

Why were people admonished not to feel too sanctimonious then? DisgustipatedinCA Dec 2014 #60

" We tortured some folks" Meh bahrbearian Dec 2014 #61

"we" treestar Dec 2014 #163

Nobody has been 'sanctimonious' about those who didn't commit torture . . . markpkessinger Dec 2014 #65

Buddy, DO YOU THINK TORTURE SHOULD BE PROSECUTED? grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #69

Got just one note today, doncha? Hekate Dec 2014 #219

Let me know when they're charged. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #241

That's some pretty careful parsing. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Dec 2014 #74

It's not like he's famous for being an excellent public speaker or something. Iggo Dec 2014 #80

If it's careful parsing, then why do some here feel the need to cut and edit what he said? berni_mccoy Dec 2014 #137

he's still saying we shouldn't be "sanctimonious" about "things that were contrary to our values" MisterP Dec 2014 #88

obviously he's found this garbage indefensible stupidicus Dec 2014 #108

I suppose that's the real problem of "echo chambers": not that they radicalize people (they do) MisterP Dec 2014 #142

it's certainly one of the problems for sure stupidicus Dec 2014 #157

same problem everyone has with Discussionist: it's not a honeypot diverting the trolls, MisterP Dec 2014 #170

that's simply sad dude stupidicus Dec 2014 #180

well, there's many complaints about "protected" forums and the jury system and the exodus MisterP Dec 2014 #189

yep stupidicus Dec 2014 #208

presumably nobody's listening to them any more: MisterP Dec 2014 #232

your reading comp struggles doesn't make anyone a POS or a salesman stupidicus Dec 2014 #95

Thank you. elleng Dec 2014 #97

Thank you for saying Exactly That. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #99

I think "fucking piece of shit used car salesman" whatchamacallit Dec 2014 #103

I think Andy823 Dec 2014 #116

The president says some really good stuff and some not so good stuff whatchamacallit Dec 2014 #121

Apparently my new and improved "Ignore" list is working great. tridim Dec 2014 #105

And once again nichomachus Dec 2014 #107

I remember reading that his college students would scratch their heads Demit Dec 2014 #212

Berni, as usual, you sound very sanctimonious. Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #110

Not half as sanctimonious at the people bashing the President over these words berni_mccoy Dec 2014 #153

And yet you could not respond to any of the points I made. Bluenorthwest Dec 2014 #204

Would a point by point rebuttal have helped you reformulate your thinking? Hekate Dec 2014 #222

Nobody gives a shit what they call torturers. Aerows Dec 2014 #114

What about prosecuting torturers from HappyMe Dec 2014 #122

I'm on board with that, too Aerows Dec 2014 #124

I'm not using any "he did it too" excuse. HappyMe Dec 2014 #129

"There was no outrage when X, Y and Z did it!" Aerows Dec 2014 #257

Well said. grahamhgreen Dec 2014 #247

Matt Taibbi published a piece that speaks, obliquely, to your point: KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #255

This message was self-deleted by its author DMay Dec 2014 #118

R U Kidding Me DMay Dec 2014 #120

For those that missed Obama's more recent (12/9) statement on the issue you can find it here... PoliticAverse Dec 2014 #133

Nice try. He said we can't feel too sanctimonious in judging why the torturers tortured. morningfog Dec 2014 #134

Yeah but you know it was the police and military he was talking about Autumn Dec 2014 #141

Here are the folksy folks Oilwellian Dec 2014 #168

mealymouth bullshit elehhhhna Dec 2014 #143

It's clear as day that "we" means the USA treestar Dec 2014 #146

Post removed Post removed Dec 2014 #147

If you are trying to rationalize what the President said, you failed. He should have made rhett o rick Dec 2014 #150

There have been some powerful refutations of the OP, but this has to rank KingCharlemagne Dec 2014 #261

Thank you. I hope this issue gets the attention it deserves. nm rhett o rick Dec 2014 #277

Another Thankyou and K&R. Reading comprehension classes LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #151

+1 sheshe2 Dec 2014 #162

Thanks. Apparently now we are supporters of torture LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #167

More dishonest nonsense. Bobbie Jo Dec 2014 #172

I know,LawDeeDah sheshe2 Dec 2014 #193

Thank you treestar Dec 2014 #165

+1 Hekate Dec 2014 #216

they "comprehend" just fine.. they intentionally twist it to fit their culture of Cha Dec 2014 #233

Apparently Boosh also used the word 'folks'!!!! LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #234

OH NOES!!!!!11111 Not the same gd "folks" word! that's a Huge clue right there..Much Worse!!!!!! Cha Dec 2014 #237

Rec one thousand times mcar Dec 2014 #236

Thank you, thank you, thank you . . . brush Dec 2014 #298

I agree nt DawgHouse Dec 2014 #164

Agreed, of course the same suspects always attack the President BootinUp Dec 2014 #175

It's way beyond a "clue".. it's a big fuckin' Red Flag. Cha Dec 2014 #283

So name the people he has prosecuted for war crimes Aerows Dec 2014 #177

Thank you, Berni. "Many in the CIA objected, protested and left their jobs because of it. Cha Dec 2014 #178

Those are assertions, those statements you quoted. Demit Dec 2014 #218

trashing thread. liberal_at_heart Dec 2014 #182

This message was self-deleted by its author Corruption Inc Dec 2014 #187

"in the immediate aftermath of 9/11 we did some things that were wrong. " Jesus Malverde Dec 2014 #190

"those folks" are fucking war criminals PowerToThePeople Dec 2014 #197

Got any evidence that people quit over this? alarimer Dec 2014 #205

or any effing quotes about it? praise, even? oh HELL no. elehhhhna Dec 2014 #221

It takes 5 minutes to look yourself berni_mccoy Dec 2014 #243

Only CIA Agent Jailed for Torture Program Is Whistleblower Who Confirmed Its Existence adirondacker Dec 2014 #258

It takes less than 5 minutes to read the story OnyxCollie Dec 2014 #287

It takes a used diaper salesman to twist this into a defense of people that didn't torture. TheKentuckian Dec 2014 #209

Thank you, Berni. Some peope will take any opportunity to trash the truth... Hekate Dec 2014 #213

anyone with motherfucking reading comprehension can see elehhhhna Dec 2014 #217

Hahahahaha!!!! Yes. He is talking about the torturers who were just trying to keep Luminous Animal Dec 2014 #220

The ODS is just ooozing.. po'things. Proud to be a "fucking used piece of shit used car salesman" Cha Dec 2014 #230

Yes it's a Benghazi-palooza for the ODS afflicted. ucrdem Dec 2014 #238

All about Hate for Obama.. nothing about the actual torturers or the pols who made it Cha Dec 2014 #240

Yep. Any opportunity to get a kick in. ucrdem Dec 2014 #242

They don't even seem to be angry at Bush, Cheney or the torturers. treestar Dec 2014 #253

bush&Cheney skate while President Obama takes all the blame.. just like fox "news" Cha Dec 2014 #266

well, at least you won't have to worry about Udall much longer. uncle ray Dec 2014 #294

If by ODS you mean "Obama Deification Syndrome", then you're right. U4ikLefty Dec 2014 #274

+1. It's getting a bit creepy, honestly. Marr Dec 2014 #276

Oh you po'thing.. can't handle the President having supporters.. Cha Dec 2014 #278

Oh YOU po'thang..can't handle criticism. U4ikLefty Dec 2014 #279

You're wrong.. I can handle"criticism" no problem. But "fucking piece of shit used car salesman" and Cha Dec 2014 #280

You said poo.. almost. Here is a favorite mini movie of the Poosters: LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #321

Maybe I should join the POSS Club instead? I think I will pass. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #317

I see you joined the "time out" club...LOL!!! U4ikLefty Dec 2014 #349

Lol. I saw the 'proud to be pieces of shit' posts and laughed my ass off. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #310

Right? Bobbie Jo Dec 2014 #313

Low self esteem problems comes to mind. Pity. n/t LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #315

Your little logo is perfect for this thread!! Number23 Dec 2014 #337

The 24 hour business cards are kind of unique too LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #338

Pretty strange.. wallowing in that Cha Dec 2014 #344

Agreed. ucrdem Dec 2014 #239

Kick & recommend. William769 Dec 2014 #244

of course he wasn't trying to minimize their crimes against humanity... mike_c Dec 2014 #245

This whole thread Aerows Dec 2014 #264

How do you stand up straight with that much spin.... truebrit71 Dec 2014 #265

If a Rethug said this, it would be torn apart on DU U4ikLefty Dec 2014 #272

A Rethug would not have already ended torture. That's the difference. ucrdem Dec 2014 #273

Nothing has changed about this place.. of course President Obama is getting all the hate piled on Cha Dec 2014 #275

A Republican would never have admitted it treestar Dec 2014 #302

Bookmarking for the small crowd of folks proud to call themselves pieces of shit Number23 Dec 2014 #286

LOL Cha Dec 2014 #289

Thread Win Bobbie Jo Dec 2014 #303

Lol, you do know where that term came from and who it was used against don't you? berni_mccoy Dec 2014 #311

Maybe they all want to run for President? LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #319

Oh yeah, PAINFULLY aware of how that phrase originated around here. Number23 Dec 2014 #336

*gales of laughter -- I wonder which ones float. LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #318

Neil Young providing the theme song at the convention: LawDeeDah Dec 2014 #320

Why would we need to not "feel too sanctimonious" if... Jappleseed Dec 2014 #288

Thread winner. Scuba Dec 2014 #297

Because being overly sanctimonious would lead to BootinUp Dec 2014 #299

Because there are shades of gray treestar Dec 2014 #301

Guess I'm a fucking piece of shit... truth2power Dec 2014 #293

No, you are not. They resort to that name calling and shaming to shut our mouth darkangel218 Dec 2014 #328

Some people will to anything to tarnish the President. baldguy Dec 2014 #295

I respect PBO. darkangel218 Dec 2014 #329

Someone didn't actually *READ* the OP. baldguy Dec 2014 #342

That's not at all how I read it. He called them patriots and excused their torture. Scuba Dec 2014 #296

more than 200 CIA employees who were involved in the torture program are today still employed at CIA bigtree Dec 2014 #316

this is a bullshit, kneejerk defense of Obama demeaning folks for comprehending English bigtree Dec 2014 #322

Thank you for the full quote, berni. Major Hogwash Dec 2014 #323

and he/she should be against his/her will thrown into a pit itsrobert Dec 2014 #325

I have a problem with" but we tortured some folks" darkangel218 Dec 2014 #326

Where does he say "a lot of folks" means the ones that didn't torture? nt Logical Dec 2014 #330

He doesnt. darkangel218 Dec 2014 #331

"a lot of those folks were working hard under enormous pressure and are real patriots." darkangel218 Dec 2014 #332

+ 1000 nt Logical Dec 2014 #334

He doesn't and his comment would be illogical morningfog Dec 2014 #335

Bullshit joeybee12 Dec 2014 #339

+1000 darkangel218 Dec 2014 #340

It's a sad fricking day Aerows Dec 2014 #346

English is a complex language and imprecise. quaker bill Dec 2014 #348