General Discussion

ConservativeDemocrat

(2,720 posts)

82. Sure, Manny, I'll draw

Wed Jun 24, 2015, 12:06 PM

Jun 2015

The problem with using U6 as the "real" rate of unemployment is twofold.

First and foremost, it's a way Republicans and Democratic-party-hating leftists, use as a double standard. Republicans are measured by U3, when the predictions of doom and gloom under Democratic leadership doesn't pan out, switch to U6 and pretend the numbers are just the same.

Second, on a more technical basis, calculating U6 of necessity involves opinion, and therefore can change due to shifting standards, despite no change in conditions. Who is "marginally attached" and "discourgaed" is difficult to quantify, and is subject to cultural trends. For example, labor participation (which Republicans/far-leftists now use as a sign that the Obama recovery isn't what it seems to be) went up dramatically in the 1950s, which we've still not recovered from.

- C.D. Proud Member of the Reality Based Community

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A segment of DU is very invested in painting a dystopian picture of the US [View all] Recursion Jun 2015 OP

because they are trying to prove who has more socialist cred snooper2 Jun 2015 #1

Interesting points. MannyGoldstein Jun 2015 #2

That sounds a lot like what you get from the RW...deny the facts....deflect from the topic. Why? Fred Sanders Jun 2015 #7

I do notice that some people want to redefine unemployment now that President Obama has lowered it. DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2015 #92

Don't have a dog in this fight, but DU has talked about the poor way Exultant Democracy Jun 2015 #100

Yes, without getting the weeds I realize the difference DemocratSinceBirth Jun 2015 #105

+1 hifiguy Jun 2015 #179

Exactly...Anybody who is part of that redefinition is no friend of mine, no liberal, nuh uh randys1 Jun 2015 #152

Dare I say, that sounds a lot like what Republicans would say. MoonRiver Jun 2015 #196

They said it under Bush every time we brought up the real unemployment rate. Exultant Democracy Jun 2015 #200

Well actually... kenfrequed Jun 2015 #108

Indeed. Look at my reply (#6) below. Wilms Jun 2015 #8

I'm game (nt) Recursion Jun 2015 #11

OK. Draw! MannyGoldstein Jun 2015 #54

Sure, Manny, I'll draw ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2015 #82

Paul Krugman disagrees with you, for one. DanTex Jun 2015 #89

"Actively looking" is a pretty hard measure ConservativeDemocrat Jun 2015 #134

It's still a subjective measure, like U6 is. And this thread is not about political value, DanTex Jun 2015 #137

But that has been the case for a long time BainsBane Jul 2015 #230

Maybe because we live in areas of high unemployment or are unemployed ourselves? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #3

That's an interesting point Recursion Jun 2015 #12

Do you know what the unemployment rate is for young, African American males eg? sabrina 1 Jun 2015 #60

Yes, apparently some people are deprived of any empathy. BeanMusical Jun 2015 #150

You should probably be looking to your municipality or state, then frazzled Jun 2015 #31

I have family reasons that prevent me from moving. Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #33

My husband was laid off at age 59. LibDemAlways Jun 2015 #86

"underemployment and part-time benefit-less employment that have become the norm." marions ghost Jun 2015 #167

You and I are in the same boat, and I am 48. Efilroft Sul Jun 2015 #170

because all they want to do is complain. geek tragedy Jun 2015 #4

You just described my office cube mate. tridim Jun 2015 #96

Not quite true. Their lack of action may be because they aren't able to just pick up and move. haele Jun 2015 #160

Great post. Good read. Thanks. JDPriestly Jul 2015 #226

Dystopian Starry Messenger Jun 2015 #5

D'oh Recursion Jun 2015 #10

Homeless people don't count, and we have many of them. JDPriestly Jul 2015 #228

Inflation-adjusted wages 1967-2013 Wilms Jun 2015 #6

That's the same chart I used EDIT sorry you posted incomes Recursion Jun 2015 #9

Indeed. It's an attempt at something, but not something I really understand completely. MineralMan Jun 2015 #13

Read some of the replies in this thread edhopper Jun 2015 #14

Maybe because LWolf Jun 2015 #15

I take you and Erich's point: some regions haven't shared in the growth Recursion Jun 2015 #18

Wouldn't you get some optimism out of the statistics presented? treestar Jun 2015 #38

Here are some things that would engender optimism: LWolf Jun 2015 #47

Then you could never be optimistic at any time to date treestar Jun 2015 #57

Much of that situation does exist, just not in the USA... Human101948 Jun 2015 #117

So there is no reason to be optimistic treestar Jun 2015 #216

Good for who? Human101948 Jun 2015 #218

Hope for progress on those fronts LWolf Jun 2015 #141

It is a little hard to read on the chart with certaintly, but haven't LondonReign2 Jun 2015 #130

I think that you don't understand that many of us are still screwed with today's "jobs"... cascadiance Jun 2015 #16

exactly virtualobserver Jun 2015 #66

How Much Money Do You Make ??? WillyT Jun 2015 #17

What's a vacation? azmom Jun 2015 #70

My Point Exactly... WillyT Jun 2015 #88

Post removed Post removed Jun 2015 #19

Well that second chart is simply a straight up lie Recursion Jun 2015 #22

Duh! YOU provided NO links in your OP's "factual claims: Divernan Jun 2015 #39

Don't be trying to explain things so simply AZ Progressive Jun 2015 #55

Believe it or not your charts got hidden. hifiguy Jun 2015 #181

That is INSANE!!! truebrit71 Jun 2015 #183

Exactly, they should be tombstoned. There was absolutely NOTHING wrong with AZ's post. kath Jun 2015 #185

Really. What sort of bullshit hide was that? Warren Stupidity Jun 2015 #192

What Warren Said! ProfessorGAC Jun 2015 #217

*points down thread* Prism Jun 2015 #194

WTF?! TM99 Jun 2015 #202

Up is Down hifiguy Jun 2015 #204

Shitty hide, anyone with results? (Oh, LegalInsurrction) joshcryer Jun 2015 #215

Retired and taking early Social Security instead of becoming homeless n/t eridani Jul 2015 #233

The myth of early retirement joshcryer Jul 2015 #235

Nice comfortsplaining for the people who had to sign up at 62 eridani Jul 2015 #236

Please. joshcryer Jul 2015 #237

Without a doubt that is the dumbest hide I've ever seen on DU. nt laundry_queen Jul 2015 #225

Insanity is right!!! How the hell could factual charts get a hide????? RiverLover Jul 2015 #240

I was gonna disagree with the OP nilesobek Jun 2015 #193

That was a BS hide. Quackers Jul 2015 #232

Wow. Talk about straight up lies. 35% unemployment in black communities because every one retired? jtuck004 Jun 2015 #103

why are you citing rightwing Republican blogs in your attempts to attack geek tragedy Jun 2015 #59

I've been working the last 5 years from home managing an industrial supply website. I'm 50... ChisolmTrailDem Jun 2015 #20

Ironworker? Go Vols Jun 2015 #110

Hi Go Vols, please check your DU mail. nt ChisolmTrailDem Jun 2015 #155

The picture as a whole has definitely improved, pennylane100 Jun 2015 #21

About 1% of the workforce earns the minimum wage Recursion Jun 2015 #24

The rust belt isn't in that bad of shape for employment frazzled Jun 2015 #36

Good point (nt) Recursion Jun 2015 #52

See, there's this thing called LINKS. Without them, ZERO credibility! Divernan Jun 2015 #41

I think a true inquiring mind would already know, pennylane100 Jun 2015 #76

Thanks for the links LongTomH Jun 2015 #85

I have to get ready for a long dentist visit, pennylane100 Jun 2015 #87

I think I know where that number comes from (accurate and misleading) Bradical79 Jun 2015 #84

And with how LOW the minimum wage is these days, that isn't saying much! cascadiance Jun 2015 #90

The scum at the top has taken virtually every penny hifiguy Jun 2015 #184

Yea GummyBearz Jun 2015 #23

So your theory is whatthehey Jun 2015 #104

All it takes is some simple logic GummyBearz Jun 2015 #144

Here it is Recursion. NCTraveler Jun 2015 #25

The wealth gap should absolutely be our top priority Recursion Jun 2015 #26

Agree overall. NCTraveler Jun 2015 #32

If you think that, then you have changed your mind closeupready Jun 2015 #118

I've stated the wage level is more important than the wealth gap Recursion Jun 2015 #121

Yep, everything is just peachy. RiverLover Jun 2015 #27

Nice graphic... truebrit71 Jun 2015 #49

I am SO saving that one for further use. hifiguy Jun 2015 #187

The one that annoys me the most SheilaT Jun 2015 #28

Wealthsplaining happens when those whose economic condition is more fortunate explain to RadiationTherapy Jun 2015 #29

As I've repeatedly pointed out to Recursion: Show us your cites! Divernan Jun 2015 #44

Why would a known disruptor do that? Rex Jun 2015 #136

What planet are you living on? I work in a state government job and recent wage increases, if any, raccoon Jun 2015 #30

The OP gets recs from people that have no idea what real life is like in America. Rex Jun 2015 #140

English must not be your first language, smartass. raccoon Jun 2015 #159

Why are you attacking Rex? Erich Bloodaxe BSN Jun 2015 #201

Im getting a 3% raise this year.. rbnyc Jun 2015 #175

And none of that is Obama's fault, in fact, without him you and I and many others randys1 Jun 2015 #176

it's no single person's fault... rbnyc Jun 2015 #177

While I agree about the doom-and gloom stuff, you are being overly rosy. For example: DanTex Jun 2015 #34

Thank you Recursion Jun 2015 #48

Like I said, I agree with you about the doom-and-gloom. DanTex Jun 2015 #56

So FRED doesn't do a completely age-adjusted pop/employment ratio. DanTex Jun 2015 #75

Good question Andy823 Jun 2015 #35

I did not know the U.S. bureau of the census nadinbrzezinski Jun 2015 #40

That was pure projection by said poster. Rex Jun 2015 #164

I know, but when they even accuse government agencies nadinbrzezinski Jun 2015 #168

I agree, at this point in time all I can do is laugh at them. Rex Jun 2015 #169

employment to population ratio lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #37

0.5% have given up Recursion Jun 2015 #43

Cite! Cite! Cite! - where are your bloody cites? Divernan Jun 2015 #45

BLS. I've cited all of these in numerous OPs Recursion Jun 2015 #50

U3 is 5.5 but U5 is 6.6 lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #65

U5 is day laborers + discouraged + jobless and looking Recursion Jun 2015 #69

Now was that so hard? We don't keep your prior OPs printed out and pasted to the Divernan Jun 2015 #73

Odd that they all did so in the same year... and didn't return to work when things got sooo good. nt lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #51

All 0.3% of them? Yes, that's remarkable Recursion Jun 2015 #58

5% of the population left work in 2008 and about .5% have returned. n/t lumberjack_jeff Jun 2015 #68

And what in fucking hell makes you think that is always voluntary? eridani Jul 2015 #234

If you would take an offered job BLS counts you as "discouraged" Recursion Jul 2015 #239

It's great that things are so rosy for you notadmblnd Jun 2015 #42

Sorry for what you & your family are going through. Divernan Jun 2015 #71

Oh, don't feel sorry for me. I'm the lucky widow. notadmblnd Jun 2015 #79

Where do you buy your rose-tinted glasses? truebrit71 Jun 2015 #46

It looks like from responses treestar Jun 2015 #53

0.3% (nt) Recursion Jun 2015 #61

Let them eat cake!!! Zorra Jun 2015 #62

My college statistics professor, Jack Shannon, used to say, Cosmic Dancer Jun 2015 #116

What's in *your* wallet? Fumesucker Jun 2015 #63

The problem with this line of thinking... WestCoastLib Jun 2015 #107

Perspective counts for a lot Fumesucker Jun 2015 #126

"Both sides are the same" = Rand2016 blm Jun 2015 #64

Why do you not have links to your sources so we can scrutinize them? Cleita Jun 2015 #67

Rhetorical question? Zorra Jun 2015 #102

Being controlled by the oligarchy isn't all that bad. L0oniX Jun 2015 #72

Don't you live in India? grasswire Jun 2015 #74

Good Catch! nt 99th_Monkey Jun 2015 #101

WTF India? azmom Jun 2015 #112

Maybe outsourcing US jobs there? PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #119

Way to crap on government service, there Recursion Jun 2015 #124

whatever PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #129

Isn't your wife from that "shitty part of the world" And you work for the US government by your SammyWinstonJack Jun 2015 #197

India? Really? I guess he knows all about the US standard of living. Enthusiast Jun 2015 #125

Yes they do, it is funny all the 'people' here like the OP that make up the biggest lies Rex Jun 2015 #142

+1 nt grasswire Jun 2015 #153

Regardless of the economic situation one way or another, pogglethrope Jun 2015 #77

Mostly because your utopian picture hasn't trickled down to us peasants yet. MindPilot Jun 2015 #78

+1 azmom Jun 2015 #81

Keep calm, eat a sandwich. PowerToThePeople Jun 2015 #80

This post is offensive. Two Americas. Yours may be great. Others face daily struggles. Cheese Sandwich Jun 2015 #83

Here's the labor stats for anyone interested. Bradical79 Jun 2015 #91

Reasons I don't trust the labor stats daredtowork Jun 2015 #199

Are you trying to appropriate Manny's 3rd way bit? corkhead Jun 2015 #93

Well, it must be admitted that TWM sets a very high hifiguy Jun 2015 #189

If you see DU or its membership as the problem, Skinner's forum closeupready Jun 2015 #94

Well in my experience these are true Autumn Jun 2015 #95

When I turned 50, I was told by one employer that there was "a reason men JDPriestly Jul 2015 #231

Reality is not up for discussion. SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2015 #97

When did you first see this "very troubled land"? tridim Jun 2015 #149

About 1980 SoLeftIAmRight Jun 2015 #211

A segment is also very invested in the corporations making it one. nt raouldukelives Jun 2015 #98

Don't you remember what Rush Limpballs said right after the election? FlaGatorJD Jun 2015 #99

You have no idea. Fearless Jun 2015 #106

Let's get the real numbers. Exilednight Jun 2015 #109

2.5 billion to mislead the populace azmom Jun 2015 #111

Ringling called. They are running out of clowns. kairos12 Jun 2015 #113

Everybody needs to talk about the HoosierCowboy Jun 2015 #114

take a look at how this about a young man I know pasto76 Jun 2015 #115

"They make those employees clean parts of the restaurant BEFORE they clock in." mahatmakanejeeves Jun 2015 #158

"The reality-based community." n/t bobthedrummer Jun 2015 #120

Wages flat for 40 years. The worst inequality since the Gilded Age. Lowest workforce participation Romulox Jun 2015 #122

Try looking up statistics on labor participation rate instead of U3. jeff47 Jun 2015 #123

OK, Let's play pretend... raindaddy Jun 2015 #127

It is absolutely obscene. I'm so happy Bernie azmom Jun 2015 #154

If this were intended as a joke, it might have been a pretty good one. Orsino Jun 2015 #128

This thread reminds me that numbers don't lie but liars can number. KauaiK Jun 2015 #131

People over 50 having difficulty finding new jobs is true, lark Jun 2015 #132

It is all true, just take what the OP says and reverse it. They love to lie about this stuff Rex Jun 2015 #139

Yes you are getting annoyed, because the truth hurts so you just make up stuff and stir the pot. Rex Jun 2015 #133

Because hungry people don't give a shit about statistics and how they hurt/help a politician... MadDAsHell Jun 2015 #135

The OP is annoyed at the truth, poor baby. Rex Jun 2015 #138

wages or income? counting the yuppie 401k class that sold out workers is wrong MisterP Jun 2015 #143

Wages more than income Recursion Jun 2015 #145

Mass surveillance, wealth inequality, police criminality... Taitertots Jun 2015 #146

Good call, "haters gonna hate" NM_Birder Jun 2015 #147

The US is somewhere in between DYSTOPIA and UTOPIA Martin Eden Jun 2015 #148

Regarding the well-employed 50+ crowd... Orrex Jun 2015 #151

Because it worked against Clinton might as well do it again, Gore made a mistake distancing himself. uponit7771 Jun 2015 #156

Clinton's econ success? Art_from_Ark Jul 2015 #229

A large number of the people I know live in a dystopian version of the U.S. hobbit709 Jun 2015 #157

The OP lives in India, how they know anything about America is a mystery to us all. Rex Jun 2015 #162

He's an American, working with the Foreign Service. hobbit709 Jun 2015 #163

Must be nice to know so much, thousands of miles away from the actual country. Rex Jun 2015 #165

Um...they are American. nt msanthrope Jul 2015 #238

because those statistics aren't reflecting what we see in our own lives... rbnyc Jun 2015 #161

"There's lies, damned lies, and statistics."-Mark Twain. hobbit709 Jun 2015 #166

love that quote (nt) rbnyc Jun 2015 #171

And a tiny group here is desperately doing their best for Wall Street and the status quo. Rex Jun 2015 #172

Not really. moondust Jun 2015 #173

What the heck is going on in this thread, where someone had a post hidden that just showed some DATA kath Jun 2015 #174

I agree with that. It was a bad alert, bad hide. Hoyt Jun 2015 #180

agreed questionseverything Jun 2015 #190

No idea who alerted or why that was hidden Recursion Jun 2015 #191

i suspect the alerter claimed it was a right wing source m-lekktor Jun 2015 #212

Didn't mean for my earlier post to be a reply to you. kath Jun 2015 #186

That's what I figured. moondust Jun 2015 #188

You can't get so-called progressives elected if the so-called "centrists" are marking progress. Hoyt Jun 2015 #178

Well put. So many here seem completely sold on wikileaks FUD ucrdem Jun 2015 #182

They don't get out much? lovemydog Jun 2015 #195

cool story , bro KG Jun 2015 #198

The US is in a dystopian present. nt Bonobo Jun 2015 #203

The US I grew up in was not full roody Jun 2015 #205

I am sorry but I am going TM99 Jun 2015 #206

It's time to expand SocSec to age 50, enlarge the safety net. CK_John Jun 2015 #207

Some covet the struggle LordGlenconner Jun 2015 #208

Maybe in your world. Marrah_G Jun 2015 #209

the relentless, hate-filled assault on women's rights in this country is a fact. niyad Jun 2015 #210

Racism, too. F4lconF16 Jun 2015 #213

your post deserves its own op, so it can be rec'ced. niyad Jun 2015 #219

Incorporated into this OP. F4lconF16 Jul 2015 #220

thank you. excellent post. niyad Jul 2015 #224

That's always the case. joshcryer Jun 2015 #214

None of that really matters. Look at the wealth concentration percentages LittleBlue Jul 2015 #221

A future where people don't need to work sounds awesome, personally (nt) Recursion Jul 2015 #222

Oh ho ho, that's not how it will work LittleBlue Jul 2015 #223

Hmm. Your post is provocative. PatrickforO Jul 2015 #227