General Discussion

riderinthestorm

(23,272 posts)

43. Then it is actually about guns for you and not target shooting.

Wed Oct 7, 2015, 09:50 AM

Oct 2015

Since you can shoot targets with other weapons but won't.

That has nothing to do with me.

Its all about you and your gun.

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Highlight:

What is the function of a gun? [View all] boston bean Oct 2015 OP

Competitive target shooting. hack89 Oct 2015 #1

Could you live without your target shooting? boston bean Oct 2015 #3

If it represents no threat to you hack89 Oct 2015 #8

Actually, lots of these mass murderer spent a lot of time on the range. boston bean Oct 2015 #12

I am talking about competing in organized shooting competitions hack89 Oct 2015 #31

you will get nowhere without the support of Democratic gun owners. +1 [nt] Ichigo Kurosaki Oct 2015 #37

+1000 n/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #251

So true Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #60

Why not? They conflate... meaculpa2011 Oct 2015 #104

Why do we always see pictures of human beings as targets in shooting competitions.. madinmaryland Oct 2015 #227

No you don't. n/t Kang Colby Oct 2015 #247

What about the obstacle course, urban warfare, type shooting that is becoming popular Hoyt Oct 2015 #259

I would say IDPA and IPSC lead that format, I know of no others. Kang Colby Oct 2015 #262

It's brown! DashOneBravo Oct 2015 #269

Factory standard cardboard. n/t oneshooter Oct 2015 #291

Damn! another good narrative blown away. Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #304

What about it? eom. GGJohn Oct 2015 #266

Bull shit hack89 Oct 2015 #255

Not true. JonathanRackham Oct 2015 #265

Really? GGJohn Oct 2015 #268

You should retract this statement, GGJohn Oct 2015 #274

You mean like these? oneshooter Oct 2015 #293

Where do you get this stuff? Straw Man Oct 2015 #317

Do tell? Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #329

You act like there is absolutely nothing to fear with the conditions we face now. boston bean Oct 2015 #39

I understand that I have never been safer from violent crime my entire life hack89 Oct 2015 #46

Mass shootings rank very low on my list of safety concerns. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #52

Thats what the parents/family and friends of the latest victims of mass murder thought too workinclasszero Oct 2015 #78

A whole lot more families and friends lost people to garden variety murders. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #155

I have nothing to fear Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #61

Statisically, about 30 people die every day in the U.S. in alcohol related car crashes. Adrahil Oct 2015 #188

Could you live without voting? [nt] Ichigo Kurosaki Oct 2015 #35

There is surprisingly no guarantee for voting in the Constitution... Human101948 Oct 2015 #132

Now imagine Ichigo Kurosaki Oct 2015 #171

Where have you been? Human101948 Oct 2015 #203

Not funny, but the repubs are making voting far more harder to do than getting a gun. So thanks madinmaryland Oct 2015 #230

Of course, but you can also live without eating meat but that's kind of silly. ileus Oct 2015 #124

because you don't kill with your gun handmade34 Oct 2015 #20

It is what people choose to with inanimate objects that is significant hack89 Oct 2015 #33

People aren't conflating legal gun owners with murderers kcr Oct 2015 #166

If it's the intent of the designer that matters, lots of guns were made with no such purpose in mind Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #75

Very true Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #84

That would work, if only intent mattered kcr Oct 2015 #172

You can target shoot with bow and arrows, crossbows riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #34

Catering to your irrational fears is not necessary either hack89 Oct 2015 #36

Then it is actually about guns for you and not target shooting. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #43

Again, what threat do I represent to you? hack89 Oct 2015 #48

The guns are the threat. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #58

So they have magical powers that turn me into a killer? hack89 Oct 2015 #65

You do not need a gun to target shoot. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #70

Until you show how my choice represents a threat to the public hack89 Oct 2015 #76

Nope, you can target shoot with other weapons. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #87

Ok nt hack89 Oct 2015 #92

Firearms aren't the threat, GGJohn Oct 2015 #81

Ah, the NRA's favorite talking point riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #90

Just because something is a point raised by the NRA, doesn't make it false. branford Oct 2015 #113

Because that phrase precisely ignores the complex pathology riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #129

And lumping suicides and homicides into the catchall 'gun violence' doesn't? beevul Oct 2015 #192

"Complex pathology" reduced to prohibition? Eleanors38 Oct 2015 #307

Ah, when you can't refute the statement, GGJohn Oct 2015 #215

There are too many bkkyosemite Oct 2015 #150

I actually agree with you that there are too many irresponsible humans GGJohn Oct 2015 #216

Due to my health problems I couldn't use a bow and arrow Boudica the Lyoness Oct 2015 #195

Do you keep that weapon locked away at the shooting range? madinmaryland Oct 2015 #232

Do you keep securityy locks on your kitchrn knives? oneshooter Oct 2015 #243

Actually I do. I am concerned that the cats will grow opposable thumbs and come madinmaryland Oct 2015 #318

I have two safes in my home hack89 Oct 2015 #257

In my case, guns for me ARE for target shooting. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #56

Nope, you can competitively target shoot with other weapons. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #66

By saying "nope," what statement of mine are you attempting to refute? Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #69

That your guns are nobody's business but yours riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #79

But it is true. GGJohn Oct 2015 #83

At the moment that's true riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #94

Why do you feel you have a right or a need to know what firearms I own? eom. GGJohn Oct 2015 #218

I would need to see proof that eliminating said hobby has a direct relationship Rex Oct 2015 #114

But it has brought down bkkyosemite Oct 2015 #152

They do that, but how do we convince people to give up their assault weapons Rex Oct 2015 #173

Not everywhere. aikoaiko Oct 2015 #180

I think you replied to the wrong post Rex. GGJohn Oct 2015 #276

Moral judgement? JonathanRackham Oct 2015 #264

Did you perhaps reply to the wrong post? eom. GGJohn Oct 2015 #275

"Every gun owner is up for scrutiny now imo. Why a person owns them cannot simply go unremarked." Brickbat Oct 2015 #85

Okay, that doesn't exactly follow from your actual statement, but fine. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #105

What you "buy" is totally irrelevant. branford Oct 2015 #121

I would bet its near 100% of the mass shooters practiced target shooting. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #137

I never suggested that mass shooters don't go to the target range. branford Oct 2015 #145

Pepper spray is useful against an assailant riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #153

Not really. Straw Man Oct 2015 #315

I have a safer bet. Straw Man Oct 2015 #302

Please complete the following sentence for me... cherokeeprogressive Oct 2015 #88

Food? riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #91

They have a high nutritional value do they? cherokeeprogressive Oct 2015 #108

Ok. Let me clarify, their sole purpose is to help obtain food riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #112

Why do you avoid using the word KILLING? "Obtain food"? cherokeeprogressive Oct 2015 #119

*shrug* ok. Used to kill for food. riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #140

Yeah, that's why they have never been used dumbcat Oct 2015 #127

The nature of warfare changed dramatically with the intro of guns riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #143

And it will change again dumbcat Oct 2015 #175

The nature of warfare ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #300

In the 12th century they were weapons of mass destruction and were owned by the 1%'ers of the time.. madinmaryland Oct 2015 #233

Maybe go read the OP. cherokeeprogressive Oct 2015 #235

Oh. Ok. Then you agree with the OP. I misinterpreted what you said, then. I'm sorry. nt madinmaryland Oct 2015 #237

You can also target shoot with muzzle loaders. ileus Oct 2015 #128

Muzzle loaders fall into the gun category nt riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #158

target shooting is nothing more than improving one's ability to kill more accurately DrDan Oct 2015 #103

So why do so few gun owners actually shoot someone hack89 Oct 2015 #107

no one is claiming all gunowners kill something/someone - only that the purpose of a gun is to kill DrDan Oct 2015 #111

What matters is the purpose to which the owner applies the gun hack89 Oct 2015 #116

you may put a piece of paper on the butt of a gun and write a note - DrDan Oct 2015 #131

So the actions of the owner are completely irrelevant? hack89 Oct 2015 #133

Thats where they want to take it. beevul Oct 2015 #197

no Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #135

what is duck hunting? DrDan Oct 2015 #138

a nickname Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #139

neither do I - but I do not find it repugnant if the bird is eaten DrDan Oct 2015 #147

Love turkey, not so much duck Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #154

His screen name refers to an Anti Aircraft unit. GGJohn Oct 2015 #220

Those "few gun owners" who "shoot someone" are the problem riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #118

Conflating legal gun owners with mass murderers? hack89 Oct 2015 #120

If the 99.9x percent are suspect in your eyes, due to the actions of .0x percent... beevul Oct 2015 #198

Cause many are fine with just intimidating people, and profiting from gunz. Hoyt Oct 2015 #260

That's nice. Nt hack89 Oct 2015 #263

Like a robber who locks the door? DashOneBravo Oct 2015 #271

And horseshoes is even more insidious and evil: It's practice for killing people with skinny necks. cherokeeprogressive Oct 2015 #242

A tool competently designed to tear thru paper targets... stone space Oct 2015 #156

There are many things in life that one can be fearful of hack89 Oct 2015 #160

That's because your rifles can only tear thru papar. stone space Oct 2015 #163

No. It is because rifles are rarely used to kill people hack89 Oct 2015 #164

How do you kill somebody with a tool... stone space Oct 2015 #169

I know you think you are being witty hack89 Oct 2015 #170

I suppose ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #303

So, sort of like playing lawn darts? Scootaloo Oct 2015 #204

Lawn darts are too damn dangerous hack89 Oct 2015 #206

Keep going on this train of thought Scootaloo Oct 2015 #207

Sure - toys should not be dangerous hack89 Oct 2015 #209

How seriously should they be treated? Scootaloo Oct 2015 #210

Very. hack89 Oct 2015 #211

Two things... TipTok Oct 2015 #2

So, the use even in self defense is to kill. boston bean Oct 2015 #5

As stated before... TipTok Oct 2015 #15

Killing another person with a gun pointed at you I presume, right? boston bean Oct 2015 #21

Someone or something with the means and intent to cause harm.. TipTok Oct 2015 #53

Assailants need not always possess a firearm to be extremely dangerous. branford Oct 2015 #134

In my case... Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #159

Sort of. The use is to STOP the attacker. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #62

A person has the right to kill in self defense if he is facing an attacker who ... spin Oct 2015 #277

You guys really think seeming rational will trump reality don't you? onehandle Oct 2015 #27

Appeal to emotion... TipTok Oct 2015 #28

One of the controllers Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #63

Bookmarked for later. This has potential to be epic. You have hit the nail on the head. nt Electric Monk Oct 2015 #4

kick (nt) Electric Monk Oct 2015 #327

Hack has a point: I shoot at paper targets Recursion Oct 2015 #6

Why do people need to use a gun explicitly made for killing others boston bean Oct 2015 #7

Are there guns not "explicitly made for killing others"? Recursion Oct 2015 #9

Why don't you tell me? boston bean Oct 2015 #13

Because I'm trying to listen to your argument? Recursion Oct 2015 #16

Guns are made for killing. boston bean Oct 2015 #17

OK, that's what I was asking Recursion Oct 2015 #18

Stone-cold ... Straw Man Oct 2015 #306

If you are looking for a connection between "all of these mass murderers" pipoman Oct 2015 #38

You can't say that Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #64

If you want to absolve yourself of having to talk about gun violence.... Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #74

Except that isn't the conversation is it.. pipoman Oct 2015 #80

Really? Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #95

The numbers indicate that it isn't a 'gun problem'. beevul Oct 2015 #208

Do you realize Ford F-150 Oct 2015 #219

Actually, the 300,000 would be a 10th of 300,000,000, GGJohn Oct 2015 #221

Just did some looking and... Ford F-150 Oct 2015 #229

You're attempting to shift the debate. beevul Oct 2015 #238

According to some Ford F-150 Oct 2015 #248

Bad guys aren't the problem? beevul Oct 2015 #252

Bad guys Ford F-150 Oct 2015 #258

Then obviously going after them is the right thing to do. beevul Oct 2015 #261

Who is them? Ford F-150 Oct 2015 #270

Them: Bad guys. N/T beevul Oct 2015 #273

The numbers most certainly do indicate we have a problem. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #283

Nobody here claims we don't have 'a problem'. beevul Oct 2015 #286

But you're clearly saying that there isn't a gun problem. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #287

in fairness, I added to the post you're responding to. beevul Oct 2015 #288

You're splitting hairs now. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #295

What you call splitting hairs, I call clearing the muddy waters. beevul Oct 2015 #298

The problem is you're putting white hats and black hats on people..... Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #308

And you're pretending that there are no white hats. beevul Oct 2015 #309

Zero summing it into white hate/black hat is a foolish way of thinking of it. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #313

Only when one disagrees with the figures in question. beevul Oct 2015 #316

You're spinning the numbers to avoid talking about the issue. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #320

No. Just no. beevul Oct 2015 #321

The problem is still guns, no matter how you want to move away from it. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #322

The problem can not be guns. beevul Oct 2015 #323

The problem with your "99.9%" claim is that it's fatally fluid. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #324

So you say. beevul Oct 2015 #325

Mental illness is, at best, 50% of the connection. flamin lib Oct 2015 #110

Only if you are intentionally ignoring the elephant in the corner... pipoman Oct 2015 #178

Shooting at paper targets could reasonably be considered practice killing. MillennialDem Oct 2015 #10

I guess? I also fence. Recursion Oct 2015 #14

The purpose of all weapons is to injury or kill. Hence the name "weapon". I find that the gun Fred Sanders Oct 2015 #19

Shrug Recursion Oct 2015 #23

My fishing gear is a 'weapon' so why don't you focus on that too? [nt] Ichigo Kurosaki Oct 2015 #44

Yeah, fencing is a real problem here in New Haven! All these fencers are going around CTyankee Oct 2015 #331

How about skeet, or trap? oneshooter Oct 2015 #196

Shooting at the target is rehearsal treestar Oct 2015 #40

Target practice makes the difference Ichigo Kurosaki Oct 2015 #45

+1000. eom. GGJohn Oct 2015 #47

Hunting doesn't bother me treestar Oct 2015 #54

Respectfully, if you do not believe the risks are worth the fun, branford Oct 2015 #142

To put little holes in things. bemildred Oct 2015 #11

That reminds me, I've got to file some papers away in a three ring binder. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #71

Heh. Now that's some target practice. bemildred Oct 2015 #97

The purpose of a firearm is to GGJohn Oct 2015 #22

Exactly correct. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #68

Primarily to kill people. Secondarily to instill fear in a terroristic manner. onehandle Oct 2015 #24

The second only works because of the primary purpose of the design loyalsister Oct 2015 #181

What's wrong with shooting a rapist, home invader, stalker or other violent criminal? Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #25

Not much. But then what is the likelihood? treestar Oct 2015 #41

Rights aren't subject to precentages or wild speculation about being disarmed by ninja burglars. Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #77

or your little brother, a random shoplifter, or that guy who just got car jacked.... and that bettyellen Oct 2015 #267

If you believe you can prohibit a thing to all based on the misues or abuse of a scant minority then Nuclear Unicorn Oct 2015 #279

It's not the gun's fault. It's the gun-culture's fault. DetlefK Oct 2015 #26

No country has similar levels of gun ownership pipoman Oct 2015 #42

And no country has similar levels of gun violence. flamin lib Oct 2015 #115

Eliminate black cars and eliminate accidents or just black car accidents? pipoman Oct 2015 #179

"And no country has similar levels of gun violence" Not the least bit true.. EX500rider Oct 2015 #186

Here is one question I have for people that own guns for protection world wide wally Oct 2015 #29

Ask the criminals who might break into my house. [nt] Ichigo Kurosaki Oct 2015 #49

How often has that happened? world wide wally Oct 2015 #55

None of that Ichigo Kurosaki Oct 2015 #72

How many fires do you expect? Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #67

Everyone that's attacked had it coming??? ileus Oct 2015 #130

gives way too many people a sense of self-worth. KG Oct 2015 #30

History is your friend pipoman Oct 2015 #32

It was invented as an offensive weapon... Javaman Oct 2015 #51

And knives started as rocks...who gives a shit? pipoman Oct 2015 #57

nice non-sequitor. Javaman Oct 2015 #86

For those of you bringing up target shooting, please keep this in mind: Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #50

+1000 nt riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #99

John Prine said it very well in a song about the death and destruction of a small town loyalsister Oct 2015 #182

Crossbows, compound bows Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #59

Alert us, the next time some maniac uses a crossbow to turn a classroom into a slaughterhouse. (nt) Paladin Oct 2015 #73

Just answered the question Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #82

Naw the mass killers favor military type assault weapons like workinclasszero Oct 2015 #89

Very true, unfortunately. (nt) Paladin Oct 2015 #101

acually no Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #117

Food. You don't even need a gun to catch food really riderinthestorm Oct 2015 #100

Who cares? GGJohn Oct 2015 #223

What if Predator was a documentary? Facility Inspector Oct 2015 #93

Actually the Predator kills himself. geomon666 Oct 2015 #98

What if Terminator was a documentary Facility Inspector Oct 2015 #102

They kill the Terminator with a hydraulic press. geomon666 Oct 2015 #106

I'm in Minnesota sarisataka Oct 2015 #123

There's no reasoning with people who have gun fetishes. hunter Oct 2015 #96

Where is "Gun Fetishist" in DSM? Facility Inspector Oct 2015 #109

made up Duckhunter935 Oct 2015 #136

I'm a great stew of OCD behaviors. hunter Oct 2015 #151

Not even remotely the same thing. NuclearDem Oct 2015 #126

three functions... ileus Oct 2015 #122

To propel projectiles at high speeds. Act_of_Reparation Oct 2015 #125

Security blanket for those who are mentally still children frizzled Oct 2015 #141

You just accused 80-100+ million of your fellow Americans, branford Oct 2015 #148

Demonizing the mentally ill isn't helpful, and abouta third of people will have it in their lifetime frizzled Oct 2015 #149

You can't prove that firearm ownership is dropping. eom. GGJohn Oct 2015 #226

nytimes.com/2013/03/10/us/rate-of-gun-ownership-is-down-survey-shows.html frizzled Oct 2015 #278

It's far more likely that with the ongoing attempt to stigmatize gun owners, GGJohn Oct 2015 #280

When all else fails, deny the facts - the NRA's never been more powerful frizzled Oct 2015 #299

WTF!!!! GGJohn Oct 2015 #225

I own one to shoot and possibly kill an intruder who intends to harm my family. Throd Oct 2015 #144

Personally, I have no objection to that; however... Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2015 #161

I have considered all your points and more. Throd Oct 2015 #165

Buy a quality weapon, then. Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2015 #168

"a panic button is effective in summoning the police quickly" EX500rider Oct 2015 #193

Didn't you get the memo? beevul Oct 2015 #199

Not a lot of armed home invasions in unincorporated counties out in the middle of nowhere Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2015 #282

Not alot? Thats true, however... beevul Oct 2015 #284

Generally, the cops are at my house in a minute or less Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2015 #281

I don't live where you do. Police response time tends to be much longer. Throd Oct 2015 #292

I live about 150 steps from a Starbucks. Lizzie Poppet Oct 2015 #294

..and that's fine Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2015 #297

Who's obsessed? EX500rider Oct 2015 #305

I have a smoke detector, and i have a fire extinguisher Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2015 #310

In 30 years of firearm ownership none of mine have done those things either. EX500rider Oct 2015 #311

That's great! Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2015 #312

To end life. zappaman Oct 2015 #146

A gun - like a sling, bow, or throwing arm - delivers a projectile to a target Algernon Moncrieff Oct 2015 #157

Kill! Kill! Kill! HassleCat Oct 2015 #162

Penile extension? KamaAina Oct 2015 #167

Hasn't worked yet... cherokeeprogressive Oct 2015 #174

Over your cold.... workinclasszero Oct 2015 #176

The function of a gun is to shoot, not kill LittleBlue Oct 2015 #177

For the first time ever, I agree with you completely. hifiguy Oct 2015 #183

The function of a gun is sarisataka Oct 2015 #184

Can haz pew nau? Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #185

Ok... sarisataka Oct 2015 #187

... Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #189

When the chips are down sarisataka Oct 2015 #191

I'm with you there, Sarisataka. Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #194

The moral of the story sarisataka Oct 2015 #200

Aye. But sometimes, the problem requires a gun. Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #205

You gallifreyans and your guns... beevul Oct 2015 #236

Go home Magneto, you're drunk. Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #241

. sarisataka Oct 2015 #244

I'm a rascal... beevul Oct 2015 #250

... WAT Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #253

You should see what I turned up on ancestry.com!! beevul Oct 2015 #254

Photo of the grandkids...? Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #256

Thats easy. beevul Oct 2015 #190

Killing something/someone is often a legitimate purpose. lumberjack_jeff Oct 2015 #201

The function of a gun is to send a projectile out of its muzzle at a high rate of speed Waldorf Oct 2015 #202

Vial. REP Oct 2015 #212

Ever heard of a flare gun? OakCliffDem Oct 2015 #213

Ever heard of a line throwing gun? OakCliffDem Oct 2015 #214

I want my 2nd amendment right. PowerToThePeople Oct 2015 #217

Food. Blue_In_AK Oct 2015 #222

Nope: Make gun makers and sellers rich. lindysalsagal Oct 2015 #224

I agree 100% me b zola Oct 2015 #228

What about alcohol? hack89 Oct 2015 #285

To intoxicate, in and of itself, is non-lethal me b zola Oct 2015 #289

But guns cannot have a positive social action? hack89 Oct 2015 #290

FACT: A gun is a weapon liberal N proud Oct 2015 #231

^^ This ^^ madinmaryland Oct 2015 #234

Did it ever occur to you that it's obviously a weapon, so why refute it? n/t Decoy of Fenris Oct 2015 #239

And a knife is a weapon. n/t oneshooter Oct 2015 #245

When was the last time you heard of a mass knife attack? liberal N proud Oct 2015 #319

They happen... Marengo Oct 2015 #328

Fact check sarisataka Oct 2015 #246

If guns are designed solely to kill, then are the majority of them somehow defective? X_Digger Oct 2015 #240

A sporting instrument... Kang Colby Oct 2015 #249

A question ma'am DashOneBravo Oct 2015 #272

To shoot holes in a trash burning barrel? B Calm Oct 2015 #296

This is one of the funniest threads deathrind Oct 2015 #301

You can take this from me from my cold, dead hands. Tommy_Carcetti Oct 2015 #314

STOP IT TOMMY_CARCETTI Skittles Oct 2015 #333

Message auto-removed Name removed Oct 2015 #326

It is a weapon. TheKentuckian Oct 2015 #330

2nd amendment Daninmo Oct 2015 #332