General Discussion

maggiesfarmer

(297 posts)

34. I respectfully take issue with a few of your statements

Mon May 28, 2012, 09:28 AM

May 2012

I don't question that parent's income tightly correlates to student success. I give you that it might be the top factor. However, I thought we were discussing whether or not standardized testing is an effective tool that can be used for evaluating teachers. To recap, I was taking the position that they could and that this was a good idea, as the GF research showed that the teacher's capabilities were a primary correlating factor to student sucess. Now, even if your suggestion that parent's income is a stronger influence than teacher ability is correct (it may be, I don't know), I don't believe that it's the within the area of influence for education improvements to address parental income -- that's a totally separate and much larger issue. I do believe that improving our education system is a necessary criteria to closing the income gap. this isn't "going after teachers instead of fixing the economy", it's fixing the education system as a step towards fixing the economy.

I don't want to "go after teachers". I believe the only reasonable conclusion of the GF research is to raise the bar for the teaching profession. I want to see Public K-12 teachers compensated at a level with engineers, lawyers and accountants. Now, I do want better teachers for this money: I want to see education degrees as hard to graduate with as engineering degrees. I want education admissions to be as difficult as law school admissions. I want to see qualification tests for K-12 teachers as hard as the CPA exam. I don't know what a transition plan would look like to get there -- I suspect a series of incremental changes over a couple generations.

I don't see any reason why standardized tests have to continue to be privatized. I would have no issue bringing testing 100% into the public sector if that is a hangup issue for any significant group of voters.

thanks for the continued discussion

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20-fold increase in standardized testing coming with Gates Foundation's "Common Core": [View all] HiPointDem May 2012 OP

My 8th grade daughter had her exboyfil May 2012 #1

That sounds like the same thing that teachers have always done. Honeycombe8 May 2012 #2

No, standardized test results didn't use to be used in calculating grades. They started as HiPointDem May 2012 #25

Your beef seems to be with the raw vs. curve method of grading...not the kind of test. nt Honeycombe8 May 2012 #26

In the post you're responding to, my beef is that standardized tests DIDN'T USE TO BE USED HiPointDem May 2012 #27

The irony is that Bill Gates himself could never even graduate from college. JDPriestly May 2012 #3

Presumably because he can figure out what works and what doesn't. Igel May 2012 #5

your comment that Gates was "unable" to finish college was more than a little disingenuous maggiesfarmer May 2012 #6

Whether you aren's smart enough or disciplined enough to finish college, or whether you don't have JDPriestly May 2012 #29

He didn't finish because his company got off the ground. It demanded all his time and Honeycombe8 May 2012 #75

He has plenty of time to complete his education now. He could set a good example for others. JDPriestly Jun 2012 #84

Silly suggestion. It's a far better example to use his money for charitable causes, which is what Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #104

Silly? Bettering oneself by education is never a silly venture no matter the age or net worth. Selatius Jun 2012 #145

Yes, it's silly to suggest that a successful philanthropist would be a better example to give that Honeycombe8 Jun 2012 #148

If he didn't like what he found at Harvard, then he doesn't know what good JDPriestly Jun 2012 #156

No, some of us realized college is a scam, and left. boppers Jun 2012 #85

The purpose of an education is to provide you with knowledge you might JDPriestly Jun 2012 #157

Maybe that was the purposes of *your* education. boppers Jun 2012 #158

the 12 pound ball wins because it's mass provides more momentum against air resistance. maggiesfarmer Jun 2012 #161

LOL, "Unable to complete college"?? Like he was struggling?? He quit to start Microsoft! N-T Logical May 2012 #14

He wasn't unable, he didn't have to. He was born into the ruling class. Egalitarian Thug May 2012 #58

Not sure how. Igel May 2012 #4

So you're using extra tests DIAGNOSTICALLY rather than just for HIGH-STAKES ProgressiveEconomist May 2012 #19

So, with all of this new testing, when are teachers supposed to teach? MadHound May 2012 #7

When teachers don't know what they need to teach, what are they going to teach? boppers Jun 2012 #86

Nobody is saying stop all testing, MadHound Jun 2012 #111

What part of the "standard" is bothersome to you? boppers Jun 2012 #125

The fact that you can't fit a standard test to every child's learning style MadHound Jun 2012 #126

"a standard test" says it quite well. boppers Jun 2012 #131

Actually, having diverse assessment instruments is a good thing, MadHound Jun 2012 #149

You have missed the part where I agree with you. boppers Jun 2012 #160

I like the the work the Gates foundation is doing maggiesfarmer May 2012 #8

Your sig line says all I need to say. knitter4democracy May 2012 #9

I'm open minded and willing to listen maggiesfarmer May 2012 #17

I couldn't find that often-cited study on ERIC. knitter4democracy May 2012 #30

no question socioeconomic issues correlate to student success maggiesfarmer May 2012 #35

For crying out loud, you still aren't listening. knitter4democracy May 2012 #39

where did I say there were many ineffective teachers? maggiesfarmer May 2012 #53

Different states have different teaching requirements. knitter4democracy May 2012 #73

And you say you support the role of the teacher MadHound May 2012 #10

please supply the decades of academic studies that suggest the teacher is not a primary correlating maggiesfarmer May 2012 #18

Sorry, I wasn't making myself clear, MadHound May 2012 #23

Parents' income is the main factor correlating to student success, and always has been. HiPointDem May 2012 #24

I respectfully take issue with a few of your statements maggiesfarmer May 2012 #34

Excuse me, but first give me the research showing that tests of student achievement measure HiPointDem May 2012 #37

the study hasn't been done because there's enourmous resistance to gathering the data! maggiesfarmer May 2012 #38

So, there's no data but there's this great study? knitter4democracy May 2012 #40

the question is whether or not the tests scores can be correlated to teacher effectiveness? maggiesfarmer May 2012 #49

Standardized tests are designed to measure what kids know. proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #50

that's the nice thing about statistics, we can identify and account for outliers maggiesfarmer May 2012 #51

But this data should not be used to measure teacher effectiveness proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #52

This. This is why. knitter4democracy May 2012 #71

I'm reminded of a conversation I had with a student just last week. proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #74

I was talking with a teen mom a couple of weeks back about that. knitter4democracy May 2012 #76

What makes me the angriest proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #83

Oh Jesus...this scares me... a la izquierda Jun 2012 #105

If only we had things like computers to normalize huge data sets... boppers Jun 2012 #87

Still too many variables. knitter4democracy Jun 2012 #106

First error: Paper. boppers Jun 2012 #122

There's nothing there showing that students' test scores are valid measures of teacher effectiveness HiPointDem May 2012 #56

no, the data correlates teacher performance to test scores. to get there does require maggiesfarmer May 2012 #60

The "data" doesn't correlate anything. The data *is* students' test score, and the pols HiPointDem May 2012 #62

we've gone through name calling and now profanity. discussion was nice when it stayed civil maggiesfarmer May 2012 #68

yeah, "shit science" is such a major breach of civility. a million pardons for my offense. HiPointDem May 2012 #77

Number one is a massive assumption. knitter4democracy May 2012 #72

Oh baloney. And no, the income gap *isn't* an outcome of education. You actually believe that HiPointDem May 2012 #55

I think I said it multiple time in this thread that I believe improving public education is a maggiesfarmer May 2012 #61

As more people got more education the income gap widened. More education doesn't do sucks HiPointDem May 2012 #63

"More education doesn't do sucks to close the income gap" maggiesfarmer May 2012 #65

in what field will these graduates use these marketable job skills? where are the jobs? HiPointDem May 2012 #66

actually, I agree with part of what you're saying. I don't think we have any reason to believe there maggiesfarmer May 2012 #67

Excuse me, peasants with a 5th-grade education do "electronics assembly" & "agriculture". HiPointDem May 2012 #78

This entire education "reform" movement is based on a false premise. kwassa May 2012 #80

/end thread (on Kwassa's post) ibegurpard Jun 2012 #96

Hear, hear! nt woo me with science Jun 2012 #97

+1 HiPointDem Jun 2012 #109

Given the wide difference in employment between high school and college graduates, mythology Jun 2012 #108

half of new grads are unemployed or underemployed. the UE rate just went up again. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #110

Introducing the Gates Foundation intern. Starry Messenger May 2012 #11

Nice insult with no facts. Why don't you put some work into countering what they said? Logical May 2012 #15

Geeze dude, it was a joke. Starry Messenger May 2012 #16

Gates gave away half his money & he's still the world's richest man on alternate years? Tell HiPointDem May 2012 #20

There is only one major change they want quaker bill May 2012 #31

that's new information to me. maggiesfarmer May 2012 #33

nice try quaker bill May 2012 #54

+1 proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #43

Gates makes money with his "charitable" foundation. Marr May 2012 #36

Bill Gates himself said said that the "class size doesn't matter" theory breaks down Nevernose May 2012 #47

If his foundation work is as good as his software. sendero May 2012 #64

So if I am rich, I can do brain surgery??? What expertise does he have in education? He dropped out adigal Jun 2012 #113

no, but I would be happy to let him fund research in brain surgery at a credible teaching hospital maggiesfarmer Jun 2012 #115

No, that is not the correct analogy. He is spouting off about things like adigal Jun 2012 #116

Gates isn't simply funding research. girl gone mad Jun 2012 #117

Bingo!! Thank you! n/t adigal Jun 2012 #154

This is the "charity" that Zuckerberg has pledged most of his money to... Romulox May 2012 #12

Warren Buffett Dokkie Jun 2012 #112

You know I"m a little confused about all this mzteris May 2012 #13

Higher stakes for schools, I think. Robb May 2012 #42

We really do need to cut back on testing proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #44

I used to take a test or two every day when I went to school. boppers Jun 2012 #88

There's a huge difference between standardized tests and periodic content review tests proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #102

Well, is the the problem *testing*, or not? boppers Jun 2012 #120

Standardized testing is the problem proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #129

Okay, can we discuss the differences? boppers Jun 2012 #133

And the results show that "rebooting" doesn't change anything. In fact, it makes things worse. HiPointDem May 2012 #57

I had yearly standardized testing in the 70's bhikkhu May 2012 #21

To all the people who say they had standardized testing as kids so what's the big deal: testing HiPointDem May 2012 #22

They also aren't the same tests. proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #46

Yes, the tests have gotten much, much, better. boppers Jun 2012 #89

Your Broad Academy talking points won't work with me. proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #103

What's "Broad Academy"? boppers Jun 2012 #121

It's a training academy for superintendents proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #127

Hm. boppers Jun 2012 #132

I am sorry we shamed the selfish pig into becoming charitable. aquart May 2012 #28

+1. Helps fill the void of Madflor's absence. Mc Mike May 2012 #32

And Common Core will be a disaster proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #41

"Not one teacher helped write these standards." Robb May 2012 #45

Let me tell you about that 'collaboration'. proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #48

Yes, they're lying. Through use of weasel phrases like "received initial feedback" & "collaboration" HiPointDem May 2012 #59

So, students are expected to learn at a rate we aren't yet teaching at? boppers Jun 2012 #90

They're expected to master content we currently don't teach proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #100

How does a teacher know it's not "developmentally appropriate" for a specific child? boppers Jun 2012 #118

A number of ways, MadHound Jun 2012 #124

I've only taught a few days. boppers Jun 2012 #128

And it shows, MadHound Jun 2012 #150

Yes, sheer hubris. boppers Jun 2012 #159

Teachers with backgrounds in child development understand what's developmentally appropriate proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #130

Why is that insane? boppers Jun 2012 #134

and where did you get this factoid from? kwassa Jun 2012 #138

Which part? boppers Jun 2012 #140

The second one. kwassa Jun 2012 #155

Honest question: Robb Jun 2012 #135

Flynn effect. boppers Jun 2012 #136

Education never stops changing kwassa Jun 2012 #139

How much will this all cost? MattBaggins May 2012 #69

Bingo proud2BlibKansan May 2012 #70

Half a billion for Pearson's current contract in Texas *alone*, apparently. pretty big money. HiPointDem May 2012 #82

How much per-student-per-year? boppers Jun 2012 #91

Better to ask how much it costs to develop, print, and ship a test. After that, it's pure profit. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #92

What kinds of morons still use print? boppers Jun 2012 #93

Pure profit. Probably in the neighborhood of a billion a year in the US. Provides a handful of HiPointDem Jun 2012 #94

*rage* boppers Jun 2012 #95

Why are you blaming teachers for what technology is used in schools. They don't have the power, HiPointDem Jun 2012 #107

Teachers are poor, helpless, drones with no power? boppers Jun 2012 #123

You are clueless. I have a friend who teaches in a low-income district in California. They don't HiPointDem Jun 2012 #141

Oh, so do you have computers, or not? boppers Jun 2012 #142

I'm not a teacher, I don't live in california, i'm unemployed and my computer is 5 years old. HiPointDem Jun 2012 #143

The worst testers are those involved with their subjects. boppers Jun 2012 #146

and if you don't know the students, you also bias the test, just in a different way. there is no HiPointDem Jun 2012 #147

Believe it or not, tests on paper are less expensive proud2BlibKansan Jun 2012 #101

It sounds more expensive to me, in the long run. boppers Jun 2012 #119

Isn't Jeb Bush part of the corporate testing scam, too? The only motive here is profit. DirkGently May 2012 #79

I think jeb spearheaded the increase in testing in florida. seems like there was something recent HiPointDem May 2012 #81

corporate takeover of the US fascisthunter Jun 2012 #98

DU Rec. woo me with science Jun 2012 #99

Gates has NO IDEA what he is doing in education any more than he is qualified to do brain surgery adigal Jun 2012 #114

Are you willing to teach a brain surgeon? boppers Jun 2012 #137

I would respond, but your straw man is too big adigal Jun 2012 #151

This makes no sense. WinkyDink Jun 2012 #153

Rmoney's buddies own the company - right? goclark Jun 2012 #144

Money, money, money, MO-NEY! WinkyDink Jun 2012 #152

The future of education is going to be digital, Gates is trying to monopolize that. joshcryer Jun 2012 #162