General Discussion

cloudythescribbler

(2,598 posts)

187. You have it backwards, HILLARY supporters need to stop bashing & blaming ...

Thu Jul 21, 2016, 08:18 PM

Jul 2016

Bernie Sanders' supporters. I myself have been a Bernie supporter since day 1 who plans to vote for Hillary more or less for the reasons that you outlined. But the persistently condescending, moralizing, trashing tone taken towards Bernie's base, whether to tell them they aren't needed (as some Hillary supporters do) or to blame them in advance if Hillary loses is ONLY going to alienate MORE Bernie supporters while no doubt gratifying a lot of folk who never supported him in the first place.

This is the OPPOSITE of the best way to win Bernie supporters over to back Hillary (note that present conditions at DU mean that almost all those Sanderistas who will NOT vote for Hillary have gone silent or left, which makes them all the harder to reach and convince.) But if you ARE trying to win them over, this is not the way

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Dear Bernie supporters. Please. Stop! [View all] Cyrano Jul 2016 OP

Queue the outrage! tallahasseedem Jul 2016 #1

"WHY?!?!!!" greiner3 Jul 2016 #93

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #130

In '08 at this time 25% of Hillary supporters swore they'd never vote Obama, Only 10% of Bernie bjobotts Jul 2016 #217

If you were the majority, wouldn't your candidate have won? BobbyDrake Jul 2016 #240

You're absolutely correct!! dicksmc3 Jul 2016 #250

Many of the die-hard "purists" won't vote for her no matter what. We saw this in 2000 with Nader kerry-is-my-prez Jul 2016 #298

Exactly!!! KPN Jul 2016 #273

because the party still thinks killing the New Deal I'da winning strategy tk2kewl Jul 2016 #245

+1! Exactly. KPN Jul 2016 #272

For shame TallahasseeDem - you are the secret cause! - lol! kerry-is-my-prez Jul 2016 #297

Disenfranchise Bernie supporters. tecelote Jul 2016 #150

I campaigned and voted for Sanders. Who got an idea ANY real Sanders supporter would vote for Trump? Jeffersons Ghost Jul 2016 #165

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #169

+1!!! Dustlawyer Jul 2016 #203

I could not agree more. Hillary was not my first choice for our Nominee... Raster Jul 2016 #216

Stop bashing Clinton supporters. You lost, and thats not a productive way to deal with it. BobbyDrake Jul 2016 #241

Why do you have such a hard time understanding that one can think that "establishment KPN Jul 2016 #275

You can call yourselves "real Democrats" but that doesn't make it true. BobbyDrake Jul 2016 #294

Your logic is wrong Craig234 Jul 2016 #295

I never said "the majority is always right." Straw man alert! BobbyDrake Jul 2016 #296

The straw man was your post Craig234 Jul 2016 #300

Nope. Not even close. The post to which I replied was trying to claim the mantle of "real Democrat" BobbyDrake Jul 2016 #305

That's ironic Craig234 Jul 2016 #312

Increasing the length of your comments doesn't make up for their hollowness. BobbyDrake Jul 2016 #314

Whoosh Craig234 Jul 2016 #322

...... KPN Jul 2016 #321

You are way off base and putting words into my KPN Jul 2016 #308

You wrote "real Democrats." Here, I'll quote you: BobbyDrake Jul 2016 #309

Lol!! Way off base again. KPN Jul 2016 #320

Disenfranchise? bravenak Jul 2016 #166

It's weird to see words being used in ways that differ from the *actual* meaning of the word... NurseJackie Jul 2016 #167

Yes, very very bizarre. bravenak Jul 2016 #173

Corporatists!!!! bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #251

Oh come on Craig234 Jul 2016 #302

Yes, it's a definition completely made up bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #304

That did not answer my post n/t Craig234 Jul 2016 #311

As a Bernie supporter" who is now "with Her" this type of anti Bernie needs to STOP awake Jul 2016 #2

I agree. LuvNewcastle Jul 2016 #16

This^^! KPN Jul 2016 #278

I remember that Hillary nominated Obama at the convention and we were completely unified, pnwmom Jul 2016 #40

Have you seen this petition?? riversedge Jul 2016 #127

Idiots or RW trolls. nt pnwmom Jul 2016 #132

Oh wow, that's totally representative of everyone who supported Bernie. Pacifist Patriot Jul 2016 #154

13 million+ voted for Bernie. 56,000 signed the petition. Craig234 Jul 2016 #248

OH TEH NOES Act_of_Reparation Jul 2016 #258

Amen to that tiredtoo Jul 2016 #76

I do not see anyone trying to unite, rather Bernies being told to sit down and shut up. larkrake Jul 2016 #147

Yes, well -- I agree with you, and still want Bernie to make his points and earn Akamai Jul 2016 #210

^^^This AllyCat Jul 2016 #87

that's right. barbtries Jul 2016 #110

+1!!! Dustlawyer Jul 2016 #129

A quote from Cheers' Woody Harrelson Season 7 Episode 5 chwaliszewski Jul 2016 #228

As a Hillary supporter from the beginning... I agree 100% with you. Amimnoch Jul 2016 #253

Yay!! Thank you for that! KPN Jul 2016 #280

Last I checked the Bernie supporters have no PUMA equivalent meme Pluvious Jul 2016 #293

I think they are reacting more to people who are trolling here who may not really be Bernie sup- kerry-is-my-prez Jul 2016 #299

Voted for Bernie but I'm 100% for Clinton after seeing this mess. RAFisher Jul 2016 #3

Amen! austinlw Jul 2016 #49

Watching the repuke convention did it for me onecaliberal Jul 2016 #156

most Bernie supporters have already decided to vote for Clinton. geek tragedy Jul 2016 #4

I agree, and I am very glad to see it, but there are a number of "She's unacceptable to me" comments Squinch Jul 2016 #10

Ditto what you just said. auntpurl Jul 2016 #23

The transparent concern trolling threads are getting on my last nerve too. We don't have time for it Squinch Jul 2016 #25

I agree Andy823 Jul 2016 #79

The is an alert button and a hide function. progressoid Jul 2016 #206

Yes. And forums too. And there are latest threads and home tabs. This is a nice stroll Squinch Jul 2016 #207

And it's not just here, either. calimary Jul 2016 #142

Can't agree that Jill Stein is a zero. Sienna86 Jul 2016 #202

I actually made an attempt to hear her out. calimary Jul 2016 #211

A lot of physicians I know are pretty eccentric but they are smart. kerry-is-my-prez Jul 2016 #307

Really? I haven't seen any. KPN Jul 2016 #282

OK. Well. I have. Squinch Jul 2016 #283

For example? KPN Jul 2016 #289

Ditto. cwydro Jul 2016 #18

And I am one of them! Chasstev365 Jul 2016 #42

There are grumblings... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #109

there'll be a few, but compare what Bernie says to what Ted Cruz just did geek tragedy Jul 2016 #153

True. nt awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #159

A fuss at the convention will HELP Clinton. Jim Lane Jul 2016 #160

Exactly. There is no problem here. nikto Jul 2016 #232

... closeupready Jul 2016 #5

This message was self-deleted by its author geek tragedy Jul 2016 #12

I think your history might be a tad weak zipplewrath Jul 2016 #6

No, Donald is freaking dangerous Fast Walker 52 Jul 2016 #74

So was Long zipplewrath Jul 2016 #104

Thank you. I truly appreciate Sam's special abilities. mobeau69 Jul 2016 #174

Please cut the primary drama. demmiblue Jul 2016 #7

Your historical perspective is astute and prescient, thank you! I hope arthritisR_US Jul 2016 #8

Pot meet kettle. Exilednight Jul 2016 #9

Polls show 85% of Bernie's folks have already transitioned to Hillary. JaneQPublic Jul 2016 #11

Yeah, I get it. Cyrano Jul 2016 #15

Exchanges with people like that really are aggravating... JaneQPublic Jul 2016 #21

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #63

If you really get it, and this really was just a knee jerk reaction, why not delete the OP? eggplant Jul 2016 #116

BINGO!!!!! Big time! KPN Jul 2016 #284

Might be nice if you edited to indicate that. Pacifist Patriot Jul 2016 #155

Then why address the plural? G_j Jul 2016 #191

Keep fighting that primary! Iggo Jul 2016 #13

I'm not afraid of that brainless egomaniac. arcane1 Jul 2016 #14

There are a few things Trump would have that Hitler did not BadDog40 Jul 2016 #24

He has colleagues with those qualities gollygee Jul 2016 #33

Just like they did Reagan! tonybgood Jul 2016 #249

Stop what? cherokeeprogressive Jul 2016 #17

Stop the inevitable rightward march of the Democratic Party. Ikonoklast Jul 2016 #247

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #19

Well explained. pangaia Jul 2016 #34

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #52

"why aren't you imploring the DNC and super delegates to support Sanders" Lil Missy Jul 2016 #56

They will never get it. The denseness is amazing. Squinch Jul 2016 #86

That was a rude comment. KPN Jul 2016 #285

+1 Marr Jul 2016 #57

^^^ good post lastone Jul 2016 #59

No one cares to waste time "trying to convince people." If the shit show you have Squinch Jul 2016 #113

do you have an understanding of politics at all lastone Jul 2016 #120

This message was self-deleted by its author Squinch Jul 2016 #128

Forget it. If you are one of the ones holding his breath to be convinced, have at it. Squinch Jul 2016 #133

Great then we shall choose and you shall have not to say Silver_Witch Jul 2016 #138

Baloney. To grow the fuck up, you shouldn't need convincing. MichiganVote Jul 2016 #115

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #124

Such bullshit. Hillary or Trump. Not difficult. And no one owes you a hand holding. Squinch Jul 2016 #135

That question cuts the drama. eom Festivito Jul 2016 #65

LOL, lots of retreaded talking points proven wrong many times over. R B Garr Jul 2016 #71

well said. nt retrowire Jul 2016 #82

This being a perfect example of what the OP is talking about. Squinch Jul 2016 #85

You mean the ones that won't be needed at GE time, TheCowsCameHome Jul 2016 #20

Funny how that works, isn't it? n/t arcane1 Jul 2016 #26

I seem to remember that myself. RoccoR5955 Jul 2016 #47

We're all "toast", according to some highly-placed cognoscenti, after closeupready Jul 2016 #54

No one is saying that the idiots who will not vote against Trump are needed. The OP is just asking Squinch Jul 2016 #88

Wrong. Read it again. KPN Jul 2016 #287

Hillary needs every vote she can get -- and so she shouldn't tailor her whole agenda pnwmom Jul 2016 #134

what part of "don't keep fighting the last democratic primary" is ambiguous? nt geek tragedy Jul 2016 #22

+1 In_The_Wind Jul 2016 #32

You should probably self-delete. n/t demmiblue Jul 2016 #27

Stop what? I have not seen any Bernie or Bust posts here since the new rules went into merrily Jul 2016 #28

Must be a slow day. Rex Jul 2016 #31

I did a quick search of the OPs posts. merrily Jul 2016 #35

And now boredom and repetition are getting to people. arcane1 Jul 2016 #36

Bring back GD: P! merrily Jul 2016 #37

"And for those of you who spit on this post...." pangaia Jul 2016 #29

Maybe just fart in it's general direction then? bluesbassman Jul 2016 #39

Its mother was a hamster and your father smelt of elderberries! Stonepounder Jul 2016 #51

Go away... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #111

Actually, seeing how it played out, no. Not at all. Squinch Jul 2016 #119

lulz Rex Jul 2016 #30

Please stop attempting to set up liberals for the blame if Hillary loses. /nt Marr Jul 2016 #38

The "Fucking retards" of the "Professional Left" always get the blame, regardless. arcane1 Jul 2016 #61

nor mine ! ciaobaby Jul 2016 #90

+1. It's not like the Democratic Party has positioned itself as corporate shop + stop. Oh wait... FighttheFuture Jul 2016 #136

Wish I could rec this post. vintx Jul 2016 #317

Thanks! FighttheFuture Jul 2016 #323

+1 leftstreet Jul 2016 #163

We're liberals shenmue Jul 2016 #146

Somehow we don't count, though. Squinch Jul 2016 #198

our votes have to be earned. captainarizona Jul 2016 #41

If you're still on the fence after the crapfest the Republicans have just put on, you belong Squinch Jul 2016 #83

Try not to sound like Trump supporters going after Cruz supporters. Thanks. nt Xipe Totec Jul 2016 #43

K & R 63splitwindow Jul 2016 #44

Dear Cyrano, LWolf Jul 2016 #45

Dear LWolf Cyrano Jul 2016 #60

Then I'm sorry LWolf Jul 2016 #179

Gee, I thought that Bernie supporters were effectively banned RoccoR5955 Jul 2016 #46

Not True. Bernie supporters have not been banned for being Bernie supporters. Lil Missy Jul 2016 #58

Is that not RoccoR5955 Jul 2016 #91

No. It's called reality. n/t Lil Missy Jul 2016 #108

Perhaps it may be your reality RoccoR5955 Jul 2016 #112

Couldn't agree more Andy823 Jul 2016 #94

Clearly not. They're still pushing the same old crap. Squinch Jul 2016 #89

Then you thought incorrectly. TwilightZone Jul 2016 #96

Hillary doubters simply don't bucolic_frolic Jul 2016 #48

"Hillary Doubters." Iggo Jul 2016 #66

how do you know who he is, it changes daily He is a word salad larkrake Jul 2016 #170

Progressivism is extinct if Trump wins bucolic_frolic Jul 2016 #176

ridiculous, bye larkrake Jul 2016 #178

I'll vote for who I believe in GummyBearz Jul 2016 #50

Yes, please. wisteria Jul 2016 #53

Maybe cut the blackmail and try winning us over instead. MillennialDem Jul 2016 #55

I wonder if the Ted Cruz supporters are being told to stop at freeperville. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2016 #62

The Freepers are roundly denouncing Cruz for his speech. Jim Lane Jul 2016 #168

So DU and FR LWolf Jul 2016 #182

It's something to ponder all right. Spitfire of ATJ Jul 2016 #200

Keep on push selling that used car. The gimmick isn't working yet. Ford_Prefect Jul 2016 #64

Oh, look! Suddenly we're wanted and needed! TheCowsCameHome Jul 2016 #67

I think you are reading into what the OP said and seeing something that isn't there. Squinch Jul 2016 #125

No, that's not it at all. TheCowsCameHome Jul 2016 #186

And yet no one is pleading for help. Go figure. Squinch Jul 2016 #197

This is fear mongering at it's best. afertal Jul 2016 #68

What "false choice" might you be talking about? Squinch Jul 2016 #149

If Trump is such a huge danger... HooptieWagon Jul 2016 #69

Way past time to give up on such nonsense. tonyt53 Jul 2016 #72

It's like the cartoon of Coyote holding onto the top of the cliff with the last fingernail Squinch Jul 2016 #98

Is that directed at the OP? Marr Jul 2016 #190

Wrong Andy823 Jul 2016 #84

+1,000,000,000 n/t RoccoR5955 Jul 2016 #92

Which is a good thing. Because we didn't. We nominated the candidate that the vast majority Squinch Jul 2016 #97

But Trump himself called Bernie a loser. R B Garr Jul 2016 #103

Well, the "stronger" candidate... awoke_in_2003 Jul 2016 #114

Sec Clinton was by far the stronger candidate in the Democratic party primaries Grey Lemercier Jul 2016 #231

Sanders consistantly polled 10 points or more better than Trump. HooptieWagon Jul 2016 #235

Sanders was given a pass by the Republicans and the MSM because they knew he would never win the Grey Lemercier Jul 2016 #244

Polls that far out from the GE are notoriously unreliable. annavictorious Jul 2016 #301

That's true. Her poll numbers have steadily declined in the past year. HooptieWagon Jul 2016 #303

I'm not worried, annavictorious Jul 2016 #306

We are progressive Americans before we're Sanders supporters .. we'll do the right thing. YOHABLO Jul 2016 #70

The crap never ends. hobbit709 Jul 2016 #73

as a former AVID Sanders supporter, all I can say is: VOTE BLUE IN NOVEMBER secondwind Jul 2016 #75

My grandfather got out of Germany. BigDemVoter Jul 2016 #77

Nonsense. Else You Are Mad Jul 2016 #78

Oh get over yourself. Android3.14 Jul 2016 #80

a lot of us DUers heaven05 Jul 2016 #81

Four days of this hate filled convention tends to make me a little tense radical noodle Jul 2016 #95

oh save your pity and the fear mongering. ciaobaby Jul 2016 #99

K&R Grassy Knoll Jul 2016 #100

Democrats have the novel opportunity of being the Daddy party. SleeplessinSoCal Jul 2016 #101

stop what? stupidicus Jul 2016 #102

Cyrano�You should have confidence in Hillary Clinton. (This thread of yours is not necessary.) CobaltBlue Jul 2016 #105

Just let's us know how many here still support dividing us up constantly. Such a sad theme on DU. Rex Jul 2016 #175

You stress history and emphasize Hitler and Nixon, but not Reagan. Interesting. appalachiablue Jul 2016 #106

Don't forget the supreme court LostinRed Jul 2016 #107

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #117

Trouble on the horizon? I think not. But FYI fear doesn't work really well with dreamers HereSince1628 Jul 2016 #118

is this really a question? CarrieLynne Jul 2016 #121

I think we must be up to about 98% of Bernie supporters agreeing with you. And that is a Squinch Jul 2016 #140

I'm also hoping for Warren. stage left Jul 2016 #145

Oh, look, a thread about Bernie and Bernie supporters. bigwillq Jul 2016 #122

I will be wearing my Bernie shirts next week greiner3 Jul 2016 #123

Stop WHAT??? Silver_Witch Jul 2016 #126

. Squinch Jul 2016 #137

This message was self-deleted by its author Pacifist Patriot Jul 2016 #152

Sore winners. Iggo Jul 2016 #172

The people you are referring to can't really be called Bernie supporters Tiggeroshii Jul 2016 #131

I can only speak for myself. Delmette Jul 2016 #139

+1,000 n/t LarryNM Jul 2016 #218

I never fall in love with politicians, I am just fed up with corruption and the larkrake Jul 2016 #141

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #143

Defeat Trump at all costs oswaldactedalone Jul 2016 #144

Post removed Post removed Jul 2016 #148

This message was self-deleted by its author Pacifist Patriot Jul 2016 #151

Agreed. The OP's assumptions are wrong AND insulting. FailureToCommunicate Jul 2016 #177

People who voted for Bernie are gonna support Hills in droves. Ligyron Jul 2016 #157

not larkrake Jul 2016 #162

Facepalm SHRED Jul 2016 #158

I think it's having the desired effect. Iggo Jul 2016 #161

That, and... demmiblue Jul 2016 #171

... progressoid Jul 2016 #223

... Javaman Jul 2016 #254

Running with Jill will get you no where.....fast. Historic NY Jul 2016 #164

There is still work to do... Mike Nelson Jul 2016 #180

I am a Hillary supporter, and this post is condescending. StrictlyRockers Jul 2016 #181

What are you blithering about? matt819 Jul 2016 #183

I've been thinking about BREXIT a lot recently. qnr Jul 2016 #184

I still cannot wrap my head around the fact Leave won. It's going to have a hugely Grey Lemercier Jul 2016 #233

I know, it still astounds me too n/t qnr Jul 2016 #291

I don't give a flying fuck about your pity. CharlotteVale Jul 2016 #185

You have it backwards, HILLARY supporters need to stop bashing & blaming ... cloudythescribbler Jul 2016 #187

I voted for Bernie in the primary. TNNurse Jul 2016 #188

I voted for & sent $ to SBS in the primary. I'm with Her now. nt Ilsa Jul 2016 #189

FEAR, UNCERTAINTY, and DOOM! RoccoR5955 Jul 2016 #192

The choice is yours. AlbertCat Jul 2016 #193

This election is almost being handed to Hillary on a silver platter Calculating Jul 2016 #194

Truth. reflection Jul 2016 #286

Please Stop What? Martin Eden Jul 2016 #195

I am a Bernie supporter... bekkilyn Jul 2016 #196

Please don't call them 'Bernie Supporters' LynneSin Jul 2016 #199

You have a mistaken concept of "Bernie supporter" Jim Lane Jul 2016 #224

This is Straw Man, flame-baiting, concern trolling at its worst LiberalLovinLug Jul 2016 #201

Exactly. Martin Eden Jul 2016 #263

Why are you trying to stir things up... nt Raine Jul 2016 #204

Why would things change? That is all some here know how to do. Rex Jul 2016 #268

A shit-stirring, divisive post designed to continue the primary fight, which is a forum violation. ChisolmTrailDem Jul 2016 #205

And yet here it stands ornotna Jul 2016 #213

The Hypocritical Standards are Transparent eom LarryNM Jul 2016 #220

As a Hillary supporter, let me say this: Algernon Moncrieff Jul 2016 #208

It is time for Dems to unite trixie Jul 2016 #209

Yes. Stryder Jul 2016 #212

I Don't Think Some Understand Yallow Jul 2016 #214

Most of us have come around. The rest will... Ken Burch Jul 2016 #215

Stop this nonsense, it's unnecessary. After forcing myself to watch mountain grammy Jul 2016 #219

No. woofless Jul 2016 #221

Stop what? mwooldri Jul 2016 #222

Wow. Phlem Jul 2016 #225

There's so much passive aggression in this OP I don't even know where to start. Gene Debs Jul 2016 #226

Please stop suggesting that Sanders supporters would sabotage America! Shoonra Jul 2016 #227

You need to stop! Lunabell Jul 2016 #229

"Let's you and them fight." No thanks. klook Jul 2016 #230

Most Bernie fans will bite the bullet and vote 4 Hillary, **against Trump** nikto Jul 2016 #234

Two out of three voters in my home were Bernie Supporters; both support Hillary full bore. NNadir Jul 2016 #236

It is politics, simply.. scuciti Jul 2016 #237

Hillary doesn't HAVE to do anything but beat Trump. If you're pushing a private agenda in your... NNadir Jul 2016 #243

I was hoping for an intelligent response scuciti Jul 2016 #256

yep. Phlem Jul 2016 #279

You have captured my thoughts, exactly (NT) louis c Jul 2016 #238

Exhibit A regarding .... Scuba Jul 2016 #239

Picking Tim Kaine Don Draper Jul 2016 #242

As a Bernie support, I agree with you. Craig234 Jul 2016 #246

Dear Hillary Supporters mdbl Jul 2016 #252

I prefer Bernie, but he's not running anymore MynameisBlarney Jul 2016 #255

"Bernie Supporters" Act_of_Reparation Jul 2016 #257

INORITE?! MynameisBlarney Jul 2016 #265

And what makes the complainers think these people are representative of "Bernie Supporters" Act_of_Reparation Jul 2016 #270

No idea. MynameisBlarney Jul 2016 #271

If it's Kaine, I'm fkn done with with with the Dem Party oxymoron Jul 2016 #259

Which leaves you with Trump. Don't let the door hit you in the ass. Squinch Jul 2016 #264

Bernie who? Never heard of him. GOLGO 13 Jul 2016 #260

I do not want a dumpster in the oval office. Gol Hillary! lonestarnot Jul 2016 #261

Assumptions and incorrect generalizations about who we are and what we do jimlup Jul 2016 #262

I like how you start with the word :dear: Hiraeth Jul 2016 #266

Maybe we should round them up in camps until December? Orrex Jul 2016 #267

SSDD, if we all got along some here would have nothing to do. Rex Jul 2016 #269

Dear Cyrano. Please. Stop! shireen Jul 2016 #274

Stop what? KPN Jul 2016 #276

Fear and Loathing in Clintonville icv03985 Jul 2016 #277

My memory of the 90s is different bluedye33139 Jul 2016 #281

Thus, my naivety icv03985 Jul 2016 #288

This thread is divisive. Someone please delete oir lock it. KPN Jul 2016 #290

+100000000000000 Gorgatron Jul 2016 #292

It's support for Hillary so it ain't gonna happen. Phlem Jul 2016 #315

It's sickening that any so called "Democrat" could be so selfish to help elect a white nationalist. grossproffit Jul 2016 #310

Most Bernie Sanders Supporters already Support Clinton. nt LostOne4Ever Jul 2016 #313

Here is a hug for you... Matt_R Jul 2016 #316

But we were told time & again, even here on DU WolverineDG Jul 2016 #318

You might enjoy this post and subthread: vintx Jul 2016 #319

I think there are agitators among those who are really dedicated. Their role is mfcorey1 Jul 2016 #324

Message auto-removed Name removed Jul 2016 #325