Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News Editorials & Other Articles General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

DFW

(60,332 posts)
80. The unclear part is how much each side will give and take
Tue Jan 5, 2016, 04:01 PM
Jan 2016

Your post deserved more than a three line quip, I thought.

While Christianity is certainly fading, many of the younger Muslim immigrants are discovering that the liberal social traditions of the countries they are coming to are more to their liking than the ones they left. While the boys are having trouble figuring out that women wearing short skits do not necessarily mean they want to be hit on, their sisters are seeing that German girls can go out (or to bed) with German boys and not suffer the wrath of Allah. Third generation Turkish girls in Germany, depending on their family background, might wear a headscarf and get virginity tests, or else be living with their boyfriends in a jointly rented apartment somewhere. The grand cathedrals are more likely to end up as museums as mosques--as, some day, will the mosques (think Córdoba).

Immigration into a foreign culture doesn't always follow one set path. My sister-in-law was condemned to being a bank teller if she stayed in Japan. She followed my brother back home to Washington and ended as vice-director for the World Bank for Asia. The ceiling she ran up against in Tokyo in 1980 was not there in Washington. At the travel agency that does my train tickets in Germany, there are two guys that take care of my account. One is German, the other Turkish. Listening to them talk, you couldn't tell which is Turkish and which is German, and indeed, the Turk WAS born in Germany. He still speaks decent Turkish, but even though he is Muslim by family tradition, he drinks alcohol, eats pork, and does not consider the word of the Koran to be the inviolate word of Allah or anyone else.

Germany is a special case as far as receptiveness to foreign cultures. After the War, Hitler's glorification of German culture brought a huge backlash. The most sought after folk music acts were from Scotland and Ireland. Israelis were welcomed with open arms by the young people, and Jewish music experienced a huge revival. Frankfurt still has a lively Klezmer scene. My wife still remembers her first pizza, and I was the one who introduced her to Asian food. We met at age 22. One of our favorite restaurants in Düsseldorf is called ArabesQ. It is in a former rich man's house that was made over with high ceilings and mosaic walls when it became the Moroccan consulate in the 1930s. But the German identity has experience a resurgence in recent years, too. My kids' generation has told me that the worst thing the Nazis did to them (born 40 years after the war, after all) was to take way their right to be proud of their own culture. Think of how many classical music virtuosi have been people from cultures other than the ones that produced the music in which they are so proficient. SO, Germans, especially modern Germans, are used to being receptive to foreign cultures, with one proviso--it doesn't work if it is forced upon them. That is where Germany must tread lightly, and so must our newest "guests." Opening restaurants, giving concerts, becoming professors, all THAT works. But it takes only one case of a German girl being raped by a mob of young Muslim men to undo a lot of progress. The old attitude of "showing tolerance" won't cut it any more. Not in the internet age. As easy as it was for the Friday The 13th killers in Paris to organize their carnage, that's how easy it would be for some dedicated Neo-Nazis to organize "retaliation" for an attack on a German girl, and they are just as indifferent about getting the right bad guys as the Paris attackers were. The sooner the German government realizes this and dedicates a LOT of resources to educating immigrants BEFORE settling them, the better. Assimilation depends on it.

I can't even imagine Europe in 2066. It sure as hell has changed a lot in the time since I've been hanging out there, and the first time for me was 48 years ago.

Recommendations

0 members have recommended this reply (displayed in chronological order):

Germany shocked by Cologne New Year gang assaults on women MowCowWhoHow III Jan 2016 #1
This message was self-deleted by its author whathehell Jan 2016 #4
The war on women appears to be moving to Europe philosslayer Jan 2016 #2
Per the last sentence of the article, possibly they were not "European"? CanonRay Jan 2016 #3
The report states "The men were of Arab or North African appearance". whathehell Jan 2016 #5
Unpossible FrodosPet Jan 2016 #9
I think you forgot the sarcasm tag MrsMatt Jan 2016 #12
I would hope it would be self evident FrodosPet Jan 2016 #37
I heard the sarcasm demigoddess Jan 2016 #93
Poe's law in action... TipTok Jan 2016 #142
+1 get the red out Jan 2016 #33
Is this one of those "You can't handle the truth" thingies? Ivan Kaputski Jan 2016 #50
What "traditions and values" might those be jberryhill Jan 2016 #154
Lol. Not European at all. yeoman6987 Jan 2016 #47
Yeah, that sound you hear is the airplane of your narrative crashing into a mountain of facts. Warren DeMontague Jan 2016 #124
Post removed Post removed Jan 2016 #6
Sorry to see that you got a bogus hide down-thread. Coventina Jan 2016 #20
Yeah, I don't get it at all. smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #177
Agree with post #20 get the red out Jan 2016 #36
I'll add my apologies leftynyc Jan 2016 #44
Maher was right? So would you support Donald Trump's Muslim policy? nt alp227 Jan 2016 #118
Spare me the hysteria leftynyc Jan 2016 #120
Rape culture is clearly not an exclusively American thing. bullwinkle428 Jan 2016 #7
Post removed Post removed Jan 2016 #8
Clearly not oberliner Jan 2016 #10
yeah, demigoddess Jan 2016 #94
American certainly does do it better than just about everyone else however. philosslayer Jan 2016 #11
Do you have a link to back your statement? lunatica Jan 2016 #19
There have been multiple discussions on the American rape culture philosslayer Jan 2016 #21
Evidently you don't do your research either lunatica Jan 2016 #22
Well, with all those exposed women get the red out Jan 2016 #34
That is definitely not true oberliner Jan 2016 #39
Got any numbers to back leftynyc Jan 2016 #45
"Roving Packs of Men".... Triana Jan 2016 #13
ISnt this racist? Fix The Stupid Jan 2016 #14
I didn't reference color in my comment and in fact Triana Jan 2016 #16
You call them "rabid dogs" and haven't read the article? Fix The Stupid Jan 2016 #24
I don't care what color they are!! SkyDaddy7 Jan 2016 #26
BINGO. Well said. n/t Triana Jan 2016 #28
Very well said duplex Jan 2016 #68
Thank YOU! smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #159
Based on their behavior, YES! Triana Jan 2016 #27
Sexual abusers are rabid dog FrodosPet Jan 2016 #41
Ok, my attempt at proving a point was a little clumsy... Fix The Stupid Jan 2016 #66
They're roving packs of DOGS!!!! SkyDaddy7 Jan 2016 #29
insulting roving packs of rapists is not racist nt geek tragedy Jan 2016 #31
Exactly. Triana Jan 2016 #32
It's an insult to dogs get the red out Jan 2016 #35
Fitting user name. Ace Rothstein Jan 2016 #46
Not racist because it's not about race. It's about gender based violence and men behaving brutally Bucky Jan 2016 #98
I agree, but in regard to "being white", Arabs are Caucasian whathehell Jan 2016 #129
I think you don't know what "race" is Bucky Jan 2016 #143
I think you know that deinition is not what's commonly understand by the term.. whathehell Jan 2016 #178
Only if one claims their atrocious behavior is caused by their race. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2016 #111
Agreed. And if they are christx30 Jan 2016 #15
Well that's no good. Shame on them! closeupready Jan 2016 #17
Anyone to whom this comes as a surprise...... DFW Jan 2016 #18
It came as a surprise to me philosslayer Jan 2016 #23
Be glad to. I live in Germany. Do you? DFW Jan 2016 #25
Most of us on DU don't live in Germany. LisaL Jan 2016 #30
Have to disagree there DFW Jan 2016 #42
Thank you for your response philosslayer Jan 2016 #38
Ah, there, as the Bard says, is the rub. DFW Jan 2016 #49
An excellent response philosslayer Jan 2016 #52
This post reads like an Onion article. Ace Rothstein Jan 2016 #54
Not at all philosslayer Jan 2016 #56
Many of those arriving in Europe have no intention of being a part of the "mixing bowl". Ace Rothstein Jan 2016 #61
There is good and bad DFW Jan 2016 #86
Me too leftynyc Jan 2016 #90
You've been "philoslayered" ProudToBeBlueInRhody Jan 2016 #109
Tell me where my guess for the future of Europe is wrong? philosslayer Jan 2016 #116
It's wrong because leftynyc Jan 2016 #121
It's amazing how everything will work out perfectly The2ndWheel Jan 2016 #65
Ick. That sounds horrible speaking as an Art Historian. Coventina Jan 2016 #74
Most cathedrals are cruciform in plan view. Bulldoze 'em! Throd Jan 2016 #76
This is true as well. And nearly all of them are repositories of many works of art. Coventina Jan 2016 #82
Yeah, that would be like the Taliban destoying the ancient Buddha in Afghanistan whathehell Jan 2016 #96
The unclear part is how much each side will give and take DFW Jan 2016 #80
So instead of progressing, they'll revert? Lizzie Poppet Jan 2016 #112
That is the dumbest thing I have read so far this week...but it is only Wednesday LOL snooper2 Jan 2016 #148
Oh? philosslayer Jan 2016 #161
Great... they will ruin another area of the world GummyBearz Jan 2016 #158
Please elaborate... philosslayer Jan 2016 #160
Oh god, please! smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #164
Great post duplex Jan 2016 #77
There are a LOT of countries and cultures out there DFW Jan 2016 #84
My solution to this: deport them coyote Jan 2016 #58
As I said in a previous post philosslayer Jan 2016 #59
I totally disagree. coyote Jan 2016 #60
How will the migrants "strengthen" Germany and it's culture romanic Jan 2016 #62
Just like migrants always strengthen and revitalize cultures philosslayer Jan 2016 #63
When did Germany and it's culture needed to be "revitalized"? romanic Jan 2016 #64
All cultures need to be revitalized from time to time philosslayer Jan 2016 #71
Well some of those migrants romanic Jan 2016 #72
But the Italians and the Irish are closer to christx30 Jan 2016 #78
It's not going to strengthen German and it's culture. christx30 Jan 2016 #67
Xenophelia: the empty headed opposite of xenophobia. Throd Jan 2016 #75
Yup. christx30 Jan 2016 #79
And it gets stronger with increased distance from the problem. (n/t) Nihil Jan 2016 #128
Consider the implications of this diagram jberryhill Jan 2016 #155
Roving packs of rapists are an "inconvenience" to you? Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #130
My exact reaction. CharlotteVale Jan 2016 #140
How could Merkel not see what an absolute disaster this was going to be? smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #174
I could live under those conditions for years tabasco Jan 2016 #43
You have an advantge all the same DFW Jan 2016 #51
Exactly philosslayer Jan 2016 #57
Say that when your daughter or wife gets assaulted. tabasco Jan 2016 #83
It is the responsibility, if not always within the capacity DFW Jan 2016 #87
Too fucking bad leftynyc Jan 2016 #91
+1000 smirkymonkey Jan 2016 #175
👍🏼 katsy Jan 2016 #176
No it does not! FrodosPet Jan 2016 #151
What culture teaches that violent assault and robbery are correct behavior? tabasco Jan 2016 #81
It's less black and white than that DFW Jan 2016 #88
Do you think if I and my wife christx30 Jan 2016 #185
There is a difference between taking a vow of celibacy hedgehog Jan 2016 #55
No excuses made DFW Jan 2016 #110
This message was self-deleted by its author Mosby Jan 2016 #104
where do you get that it is tens of thousands of young guys 6chars Jan 2016 #131
From being there DFW Jan 2016 #135
What do you propose as a solution to the problem shown in this diagram? jberryhill Jan 2016 #156
Are you serious? DFW Jan 2016 #157
The problem is not "gender imbalance" jberryhill Jan 2016 #162
It's not that simple. matk Jan 2016 #179
I am surprised. Are these sorts of things common in the countries they come from? PersonNumber503602 Jan 2016 #183
It differs widely DFW Jan 2016 #184
Be a shame if some of this miscreants were among those refugees claiming to be from Syria bigworld Jan 2016 #40
Well, you know the black market for Blue_Tires Jan 2016 #85
Wow romanic Jan 2016 #48
Unfortunately, many here are painting with a very broad brush philosslayer Jan 2016 #53
Just upthread you attempted to claim this was America exporting rape culture now you Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #133
A few of the attackers? oberliner Jan 2016 #137
Weren't a lot of women assaulted or harrassed during the protests in Egypt? hollowdweller Jan 2016 #69
The cultures will merge philosslayer Jan 2016 #70
You make a lot of assumptions based on weird premises. Throd Jan 2016 #73
I'd bet any sum they'll do no such thing. Lizzie Poppet Jan 2016 #113
I agree with you leftynyc Jan 2016 #122
I find Bernin Jan 2016 #89
"She obviously despises Germany". closeupready Jan 2016 #92
Very strange rationalization. Bernin Jan 2016 #95
Are you from Mars, or something? This is what she's thinking in that video: closeupready Jan 2016 #97
Wow! Bernin Jan 2016 #99
You think 12 years of history christx30 Jan 2016 #100
Ok, the two of you are playing stupid, and I'm done with this squabble. closeupready Jan 2016 #102
I'm not playing stupid. christx30 Jan 2016 #106
Hopefully Germany will survie to the next election. Bernin Jan 2016 #103
They have survived the last 2000 years DFW Jan 2016 #108
Cologne mayor recommends women keep "one arm length distance" to avoid assaults like on NYE MowCowWhoHow III Jan 2016 #101
She also said that there is no sign the alleged assaults were linked to refugees philosslayer Jan 2016 #105
Or perhaps she's a fucking idiot... MowCowWhoHow III Jan 2016 #107
The same thing happens every year in New Orleans during Mardi Gras, gets very little notice... George II Jan 2016 #114
Part of what makes this story so shocking is that it took place in Cologne, Germany oberliner Jan 2016 #115
Islamophobic backlash in 3....2...1... mwrguy Jan 2016 #117
What would be an appropriate response? oberliner Jan 2016 #119
That's rapidly becomming leftynyc Jan 2016 #123
Who calls Sweden the rape capital of the world? mwrguy Jan 2016 #150
I've heard the term leftynyc Jan 2016 #152
I didn't call you a right-wing agitator mwrguy Jan 2016 #153
I'm not clicking any of those links leftynyc Jan 2016 #166
That's a screen shot of the top google results. mwrguy Jan 2016 #167
He's not the only source on that list leftynyc Jan 2016 #168
Every source on that list is a racist, right-wing provocateur mwrguy Jan 2016 #169
Wow leftynyc Jan 2016 #171
you can see how i worded the search. it's in the screencap. mwrguy Jan 2016 #172
I went with rape statistics Sweden leftynyc Jan 2016 #173
"Islamophobia" is clearly the issue here romanic Jan 2016 #125
Too late RandiFan1290 Jan 2016 #126
Almost no one has mentioned the religion of the perpetrators on this thread oberliner Jan 2016 #127
I used to think victim-blaming was pretty low until I saw perpetrator-sympathy. Nuclear Unicorn Jan 2016 #134
I don't know what happened, but the official language being used BeyondGeography Jan 2016 #132
The reporting on this has been quite extensive oberliner Jan 2016 #136
We're still at the nobody fully knows what happened stage BeyondGeography Jan 2016 #138
These men were moving around, traveling in groups, and behaving like animals oberliner Jan 2016 #139
You're just a spectator, you can say whatever you want BeyondGeography Jan 2016 #141
No language was used equating members of a minority group with dogs oberliner Jan 2016 #146
"Roving Packs" philosslayer Jan 2016 #144
Let's just say they are good people who did a bad thing 6chars Jan 2016 #145
You need video to corroborate these claims? oberliner Jan 2016 #147
Perhaps leftynyc Jan 2016 #149
Here is a 1st witness account: coyote Jan 2016 #163
90 complaints? 1000 attackers? Consider the numbers bellow. Ash_F Jan 2016 #165
"You rape our women and you’re taking over our country." mwrguy Jan 2016 #170
So German white women romanic Jan 2016 #180
Of course not, but that's pretty much what I'm seeing from Islamophobes mwrguy Jan 2016 #181
Islamophobes or not, the fact remains that a large group of penis owners ruthlessly attacked women FrodosPet Jan 2016 #182
Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Cologne Police: Roving Pa...»Reply #80