Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Denzil_DC

(7,233 posts)
35. Johnson is an immediate spur, yes, but
Sun Nov 29, 2020, 03:01 AM
Nov 2020

he's just the latest and most blatant Westminster leader to be utterly tonedeaf and arrogantly dismissive of not just Scotland's, but the (especially northern) English regions', Wales's and Northern Ireland's concerns as well.

Because of population distribution, MPs from southern English constituencies will always heavily outnumber those from outside England and its other regions. This may not matter as much if a UK government is sensitive to the needs of the areas outside the southeast of England, nearer London, but few have done more than offer lipservice in recent times. Especially with the current government, Westminster acts as the English parliament and the Tories have enough MPs to override pretty much any opposition.

The drive for Scottish independence isn't new. It was behind the precursor to the Labour Party that sprang up in Scotland early last century.

It was a minority movement for many years, but eventually the tensions of the UK's uneven government led to two referendums on devolution and the establishment of a national assembly for Scotland. The first referendum was sabotaged by English MPs who changed the rules to effectively give the dead votes (and was one factor in the demise of Callaghan's very troubled Labour government that ushered in the Tory Thatcher years). Pressure from the EU led to the second referendum, which voted convincingly yes to devolution. Wales and Northern Ireland later gained their own devolved assemblies, but Scotland's has most powers.

Initially, the Scottish assembly was envisaged as little more than a sop and a talking shop, like a glorified local council. As it began to hit its stride and gain powers, the SNP's vote share rose until it eventually managed to win a majority of seats in the Scottish assembly (which had been believed impossible because the proportional representation system of voting had been set up to avoid one party, especially the SNP, taking power and to encourage coalitions). The SNP has been in power in Scotland since, sometimes relying on coalitions, as it does with the Green Party at the moment.

It was hard to gain agreement from the UK government for the 2014 referendum on independence, and it was then hard fought. Initially, support for Yes to independence polled much lower than No, but over the course of the lengthy campaign, it grew until it caused serious alarm in Westminster. One major focus for the No campaign was EU membership and the argument that if Scotland became independent, it would not be welcome in the EU, not least because what was left of the UK would do its best to make sure that was the case. SNP debaters did point out that there was the possibility of a referendum that might take the UK out of the EU, and also that the laughable at the time figure of Boris Johnson might become UK prime minister. Both these prospects were heavily pooh-poohed as ridiculous.

You'll know enough of the UK's recent history to understand how that all panned out after the independence referendum went 55%/45% No. Scotland then voted resoundingly 62% to remain in the EU in the subsequent referendum.

The argument now is that the UK leaving the EU is a fundamental change of circumstances that warrants a fresh Scottish independence referendum to take account of the new situation. On top of that, promises were made in the post-referendum settlement for more powers for the Scottish parliament that have not been honoured (Labour figures tend to want to talk about federalism in the UK as a solution, but there's no serious support for it and power tends to be centralized under any UK government), and there's a constant buzz from Johnson and other high-up Tories to strip powers from the Scottish parliament, or even abolish it altogether. Meanwhile, Scotland's SNP MPs, who form the third largest party in Westminster, are routinely abused, belittled and patronized by the Tories. They don't seem to grasp that when they do that, they abuse, belittle and patronize those of us who voted for them as our representatives.

Opinion polls over the last year have shown support for independence in Scotland rising to consistently around 60%. This has been driven partly by the ongoing Brexit debacle, partly by the mismanagement of the COVID crisis by Westminster, partly by the perception that Scottish First Minister Nicola Sturgeon has done a far better job of communicating and marshalling resources and heeding scientific advice on the pandemic, but not least by the lack of respect from the Tories and their incompetence and blatant corruption in handing out contracts for PPE etc. The main counter-argument from those who oppose Scottish independence at the moment is that the first independence referendum was described by SNP politicians at the time as a "once in a generation opportunity". They want to focus on the words "once in a generation" and ignore the context of "opportunity", and want to define a generation in this case to extend up to 40 years.

Johnson's the obvious figurehead for all that dysfunction. I don't think he and his cabinet are capable of charming voters in Scotland after the experiences of the last few years, even if they had any inkling to try to do so.

So how does Northern Ireland feel about Brexit? exboyfil Nov 2020 #1
the religionists oughta give up their hate and do something for everyone on the island nt msongs Nov 2020 #3
Unionists beginning to question... paleotn Nov 2020 #5
Northern Ireland will leave first. roamer65 Nov 2020 #11
Not certain about this. They have (obviously) always been Unionist as they don't want to get buried Capt. America Nov 2020 #32
Catholics are actually the majority now. roamer65 Nov 2020 #44
Looks like Boris will suceed in tearing it all to pieces. jeffreyi Nov 2020 #2
Everything changes. IsItJustMe Nov 2020 #4
The sea makes a better border for Ireland exboyfil Nov 2020 #6
I never did understand their voting it down before. (Year?) efhmc Nov 2020 #24
The Scottish voters have been consistant. ssgbryan Nov 2020 #26
Thanks for the info. efhmc Nov 2020 #27
Trump's just pissed that he wasn't able to do the same here. LudwigPastorius Nov 2020 #12
Saor Alba Gu Brath! TomSlick Nov 2020 #7
Of course, Westminster is now saying they won't authorize another Scottish referendum... regnaD kciN Nov 2020 #8
Westminster has no say on it. roamer65 Nov 2020 #9
Catalunya was a different situation DFW Nov 2020 #17
Why do you beleive that? I am not questioning your knowledge, I really would like to know. CTyankee Nov 2020 #29
Johnson is an immediate spur, yes, but Denzil_DC Nov 2020 #35
Well said. Thanks for posting. SharonClark Nov 2020 #45
I am not as familiar with Scotland as I am with Catalunya, of course DFW Nov 2020 #37
On your last paragraph, Denzil_DC Nov 2020 #38
That last about initiative as opposed to raw resources is very encouraging DFW Nov 2020 #39
I don't think anyone's under any illusions that there will be major challenges if independence Denzil_DC Nov 2020 #43
thank you. I learned a lot from what you have said here. I appreciate it! CTyankee Nov 2020 #40
You're very welcome. Denzil_DC Nov 2020 #41
at least you have that. CTyankee Nov 2020 #50
First step toward Scottish independence. roamer65 Nov 2020 #10
Second step: LudwigPastorius Nov 2020 #13
Haggis is pretty good, tree trunk throwing might be more effective or burrowowl Nov 2020 #14
Nonstop bagpipe skirling,... LudwigPastorius Nov 2020 #15
No they won't Wolf Frankula Nov 2020 #16
Ahhh...pipers against pipers... LudwigPastorius Nov 2020 #19
That would bring about an immediate English surrender. roamer65 Nov 2020 #18
"Weaponized haggis " is redundant. bluedigger Nov 2020 #28
Good point. LudwigPastorius Nov 2020 #30
That makes sense. Piss off the English even more! CTyankee Nov 2020 #42
While Boris is an asshole... nycbos Nov 2020 #20
This message was self-deleted by its author IsItJustMe Nov 2020 #21
I suspect Spain can be persuaded eallen Nov 2020 #23
This is an utter myth about Spain. Denzil_DC Nov 2020 #36
The *United Kingdom* Delphinus Nov 2020 #22
The new Hadrian's wall Javaman Nov 2020 #25
Perhaps two layers of matchboxes would work. LudwigPastorius Nov 2020 #31
Be careful for what you wish for Scotland. I'm not certain how a Scotland pound would stand up Capt. America Nov 2020 #33
After Brexit, I am not sure how the British Pound sterling will hold up either. IsItJustMe Nov 2020 #34
I was in England during the Brexit vote and in Scotland during the Independence vote. SharonClark Nov 2020 #46
I wouldn't be surprised if B.J.... Xolodno Nov 2020 #47
K&R ck4829 Nov 2020 #48
Hope both Scotland and the Six Counties in the north Roisin Ni Fiachra Nov 2020 #49
Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Scotland leader to tell p...»Reply #35